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Mobil1 ESP is gasoline engine oil. Do not use mobil1 ESP in a diesel engine. You should only be using 5W40 or 15w40 diesel rated oil in your diesel engine.
The most current diesel oil rating is CK-4. Any oil that lacks CJ-4 or CK-4 on the bottle is unfit for your diesel engine. https://pqia.org/pqia-quick-references/
Mobil1 ESP is gasoline engine oil. Do not use mobil1 ESP in a diesel engine. You should only be using 5W40 or 15w40 diesel rated oil in your diesel engine.
That is not correct. Mobil 1 ESP (Emissions System Protection) meets both MB 229.51 and 229.52
That is not correct. Mobil 1 ESP (Emissions System Protection) meets both MB 229.51 and 229.52
Then why does ESP oil fail to earn the industry standard API CJ-4 or CK-4 diesel engine oil rating that every other manufacturer uses? Mobil1 sells oils with those ratings. Without API CJ-4 or CK-4 it's just a light duty gasoline engine oil.
Then why does ESP oil fail to earn the industry standard API CJ-4 or CK-4 diesel engine oil rating that every other manufacturer uses? Mobil1 sells oils with those ratings.
That's a moot point. It meets the MB 229.51 and 229.52 specs for our diesel engines. Is Mercedes wrong? It also meets ACEA C3. That being said, I personally don't use Mobil One.
You're missing the purpose of this post. It's just intended to educate people to use the proper oil in their cars. Whatever the owner's manual specifies is the way to go.
The thing NOT to do is to use a gasoline only engine oil in the car for the reasons stated in the video.
That's a moot point. It meets the MB 229.51 and 229.52 specs for our diesel engines.
Mercedes is telling its gasoline engine customers to use those same 229.51 and 229.52 oils.
Originally Posted by 300SE1993
Is Mercedes wrong?
Yes, Mercedes is wrong. The whole point of their standard is for dealers only have to stock one type of oil for all engines. We've seen enough bad oil analysis, timing chain failures and oil control ring failures on diesel engines to know that 229.51 and 229.52 engine oils are not designed for the health of your diesel engine. The goal is to keep the emissions system compliant for the duration of the emissions system warranty. The longevity of your engine is a minor secondary concern.
Originally Posted by 300SE1993
You're missing the purpose of this post. It's just intended to educate people to use the proper oil in their cars. Whatever the owner's manual specifies is the way to go.
The proper oil for a diesel engine is a diesel rated oil with either API CJ-4 or CK-4 label on the bottle.
Originally Posted by 300SE1993
The thing NOT to do is to use a gasoline only engine oil in the car for the reasons stated in the video.
Most of the engines under the 229.51 and 229.52 columns are gasoline engines. These are gasoline oils.
Well, I am glad to see you know better than the Mercedes engineers. By the way, my 150K mile GLK250 bluetec (which I recently purchased) has had nothing but Mobil One ESP 5W30 every 10K miles according to the service history, and it still runs like brand new, with zero oil consumption and under the valve cover looks pristine. .The emissions system has also been flawless (aside from a couple DEF issues which has nothing to do with engine oil). That's pretty compelling evidence that it's working.
Well unfortunately some people don't learn until it's too late. We've seen it happen many times before on this and other MB diesel forums (do a search, oh the fun stories you'll find) and I'm sure it'll happen again. Good luck
W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars, EQE 4Matic+ on order
Originally Posted by tjts1
Mercedes is telling its gasoline engine customers to use those same 229.51 and 229.52 oils.
Yes, Mercedes is wrong. The whole point of their standard is for dealers only have to stock one type of oil for all engines. We've seen enough bad oil analysis, timing chain failures and oil control ring failures on diesel engines to know that 229.51 and 229.52 engine oils are not designed for the health of your diesel engine. The goal is to keep the emissions system compliant for the duration of the emissions system warranty. The longevity of your engine is a minor secondary concern.
The proper oil for a diesel engine is a diesel rated oil with either API CJ-4 or CK-4 label on the bottle.
Most of the engines under the 229.51 and 229.52 columns are gasoline engines. These are gasoline oils.
I don't think I have seen this much misinformation in one place since horse dewormer was being touted as a cure for COVID. You're obviously regurgitating stuff that may have been partially true 40 years ago but is most definitely no longer the case, and you don't have any clue about what modern engines require and what engine oils do and how they work.
First of all, there is a huge difference between heavy-duty diesel engines and light-duty ones, from their design and operating characteristics to what they require from the lubricant (oil) for optimal protection and operation. Your assumption that the lubrication requirements of modern heavy-duty diesel engines (and mostly American ones at that) are somehow applicable to light-duty diesel engines is very wrong, so your entire argument - if one can actually call it that - is based on a false assumption. Do you see any cars or SUVs on that PQIA chart in the little pictures where you selected HDEO oils?
Second, unlike in the USA, the gas and diesel in Europe does not contain ~20% biofuel made from government-subsidized corn and soybeans which has different properties from dinosaur juice and creates a different set of challenges, so the fact that they can use a low-SAPS oil in a gasoline engine that was in fact designed for light-duty diesels does not mean that it is either a gasoline oil or that it is applicable everywhere and under all conditions. That's like me saying that just because I use Shell Rotella T6 in my old Porsche (for reasons that I and I alone choose to do so) that it is a gasoline oil or that everyone else should be doing it. It is not.
There are many resources that you can read to educate yourself a little bit so you would at least know which chart to select and look at. And, until you get degrees in both mechanical and chemical engineering and become a tribologist at Daimler at which point you'll be able to make educated decisions about what engines require what oil properties, the triboligists at Mercedes will know a lot more than you do which oils are right and which ones are wrong for any given application in engines in general and in particular the ones that they design and make.
W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars, EQE 4Matic+ on order
Originally Posted by tjts1
Well unfortunately some people don't learn until it's too late. We've seen it happen many times before on this and other MB diesel forums (do a search, oh the fun stories you'll find) and I'm sure it'll happen again. Good luck
And some people never learn. You are living proof.
I don't think I have seen this much misinformation in one place since horse dewormer was being touted as a cure for COVID. You're obviously regurgitating stuff that may have been partially true 40 years ago but is most definitely no longer the case, and you don't have any clue about what modern engines require and what engine oils do and how they work.
First of all, there is a huge difference between heavy-duty diesel engines and light-duty ones, from their design and operating characteristics to what they require from the lubricant (oil) for optimal protection and operation. Your assumption that the lubrication requirements of modern heavy-duty diesel engines (and mostly American ones at that) are somehow applicable to light-duty diesel engines is very wrong, so your entire argument - if one can actually call it that - is based on a false assumption. Do you see any cars or SUVs on that PQIA chart in the little pictures where you selected HDEO oils?
Second, unlike in the USA, the gas and diesel in Europe does not contain ~20% biofuel made from government-subsidized corn and soybeans which has different properties from dinosaur juice and creates a different set of challenges, so the fact that they can use a low-SAPS oil in a gasoline engine that was in fact designed for light-duty diesels does not mean that it is either a gasoline oil or that it is applicable everywhere and under all conditions. That's like me saying that just because I use Shell Rotella T6 in my old Porsche (for reasons that I and I alone choose to do so) that it is a gasoline oil or that everyone else should be doing it. It is not.
There are many resources that you can read to educate yourself a little bit so you would at least know which chart to select and look at. And, until you get degrees in both mechanical and chemical engineering and become a tribologist at Daimler at which point you'll be able to make educated decisions about what engines require what oil properties, the triboligists at Mercedes will know a lot more than you do which oils are right and which ones are wrong for any given application in engines in general and in particular the ones that they design and make.
Not to agree/disagree with either of ya just wanted to say if the europe oil is based off of non biofuel diesel then why dont they have a alternate oil list for the US side of things considering ones operated over here are using a different spec diesel? Not all diesel in US is 20% FYI but yeah that subsidized stuff is total BS and a waste of tax payer money and efficiency.
Beancounters will trump even the best engineers. Always. Maybe not 30 years ago but now a days that is the case unfortunately. Not just with diesel engine oils but across pretty much all companies that focus on making money. Even NASA which isnt a publicly traded company, hence the Challenger coming apart.
W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars, EQE 4Matic+ on order
Originally Posted by Quint22
Not to agree/disagree with either of ya just wanted to say if the europe oil is based off of non biofuel diesel then why dont they have a alternate oil list for the US side of things considering ones operated over here are using a different spec diesel? Not all diesel in US is 20% FYI but yeah that subsidized stuff is total BS and a waste of tax payer money and efficiency.
Beancounters will trump even the best engineers. Always. Maybe not 30 years ago but now a days that is the case unfortunately. Not just with diesel engine oils but across pretty much all companies that focus on making money. Even NASA which isnt a publicly traded company, hence the Challenger coming apart.
They do have different ones where needed. If you take a look at the Bevo sheet, there's the list of various (gasoline) engines and oil specifications that are approved for said engines in Western Europe, and then oil specifications that are approved for the same engines Worldwide except Western Europe. The only difference between Western Europe and ROW (Rest Of World) is the fuel quality.
The diesel oils have a harder job to do in terms of soot suspension and oxidation stability and are thus more advanced and more expensive to manufacture than just hydrocracked dinosaur juice, so once a company formulates an oil that meets the 229.52 spec (which is an upgrade to and more stringent than the 229.51 spec), chances are that it meets and exceeds the 229.5 gasoline oil spec so in many cases it is approved for use in the gasoline engines as well. I suspect this is the fallacy that tjts gets tripped up on, namely seeing a 229.52 oil as being approved for use in gasoline engines as well ans assuming that it is a (cheaper) gasoline oil, not a better diesel-engine spec that in many cases simply meets and exceeds the gasoline spec oils. It is exactly why I run the Rotella T6 in a 30+ year-old Porsche.
And, while I certainly agree that the bean counters most often do trump the engineers when it comes to financial decision making, that is by definition not the case here because Mercedes does not make any money from other companies' oils. Shell, Mobil, Motul and a number of other companies make an oil, and if it meets the appropriate spec, it gets the MB approval. There is no financial gain for Mercedes in it nor do they stand to profit from it in any way. When it comes to the design and manufacture of specific vehicle parts they make themselves, then sure. But they have no more stake in oils any more than they do in tires.
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P.S. The Challenger blew up because the politically appointed executives didn't listen to the Morton Thiokol engineers that designed the O-rings, knew that at those low temperatures the rubber would indeed be brittle and not provide a good seal and actually tried to stop the launch. NASA is a non-profit entity but it is indeed very much taxpayer funded.
And, while I certainly agree that the bean counters most often do trump the engineers when it comes to financial decision making, that is by definition not the case here because Mercedes does not make any money from other companies' oils. Shell, Mobil, Motul and a number of other companies make an oil, and if it meets the appropriate spec, it gets the MB approval. There is no financial gain for Mercedes in it nor do they stand to profit from it in any way.
This is not true. Oil manufacturers have to pay Mercedes in order to get onto the approved list. How do you think that little Mobil1 sticker showed up under the hood of your car? ExonMobil paid for that.
The "requirement" to use 229.51 or 229.52 oil was strictly a business decision.
Originally Posted by Diabolis
The diesel oils have a harder job to do in terms of soot suspension and oxidation stability and are thus more advanced and more expensive to manufacture than just hydrocracked dinosaur juice, so once a company formulates an oil that meets the 229.52 spec (which is an upgrade to and more stringent than the 229.51 spec), chances are that it meets and exceeds the 229.5 gasoline oil spec so in many cases it is approved for use in the gasoline engines as well.
If 229.51 or 52 oil met the API CK-4 diesel standard then they would put that label on the bottle. It fails to meet the diesel oil standard therefore I don't use it. It lacks the additives required for diesel engines. Those additives that protect your diesel engine happen to be detrimental to the life expectancy of the DPF. That's how we ended up with low SAPS gasoline oils in diesel engines. From a regulatory perspective, the life expectancy of your DPF is far more important than the life expectancy of your engine.
W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars, EQE 4Matic+ on order
Originally Posted by tjts1
This is not true. Oil manufacturers have to pay Mercedes in order to get onto the approved list. How do you think that little Mobil1 sticker showed up under the hood of your car? ExonMobil paid for that.
Unlike in the USA where the API that is made up of the oil companies themselves rips other oil manufacturers off for a stamp, the only thing oil manufacturers have to pay Mercedes for is a nominal testing and approval fee. And, you are again confusing an oil specification with an oil manufacturer / brand. Nowhere did I or anyone else claim that you need to use Mobil oil (which may indeed have paid Mercedes a few bucks to put a sticker under the hood) or for that matter an oil from any one other particular manufacturer. If you look at the actual approved oil list, there are oils from tiny little companies in Slovenia that are approved and they barely make a couple million Euros in profit annually. You're confusing apples with oranges.
Originally Posted by tjts1
The "requirement" to use 229.51 or 229.52 oil was strictly a business decision.
Categorically not true. 229.51 and 229.52 oils were developed as a result of more stringent emission requirements by various governmental regulatory bodies, and more importantly, because they provide better protection than previous oil specifications.
Originally Posted by tjts1
If 229.51 or 52 oil met the API CK-4 diesel standard then they would put that label on the bottle. It fails to meet the diesel oil standard therefore I don't use it. It lacks the additives required for diesel engines. Those additives that protect your diesel engine happen to be detrimental to the life expectancy of the DPF. That's how we ended up with low SAPS gasoline oils in diesel engines. From a regulatory perspective, the life expectancy of your DPF is far more important than the life expectancy of your engine.
You're again tripping up on the same false assumption here as before. The API CK-4 standard is about as relevant to the issue at hand here as the oil having an FDA approval that it is safe for cooking. 229.51 &. 52 oils fail to meet a standard that is completely IRRELEVANT to their intended use in this particular application. No one is saying that 229.52 oils are fine for use in Kenworth tractor trailer engines. Do you see what the problem is with your entire premise - namely that the API CK-4 standard is somehow applicable to a Mercedes passenger vehicle diesel engine?
And, you also happen to be wrong about the additives - a tractor trailer engine is in use at a constant high temperature for 99.5% of the time, and the HDEO oils that go in such heavy duty diesel engines have very different requirements from those that are needed for use in light passenger vehicles where they only get up to operating temperatures 20% of the time and need to meet more stringent emission standards. A HDEO oil for a tow rig engine does not have to provide the same fuel efficiency or deal with oxidation stability issues that arise from water in the crank case and fuel dilution as a result of DPF regen cycles and in particular where the additional fuel is actually squired in by the engine fuel injectors during the exhaust cycle like it is on the OM642 and OM651 engines. It is not about protecting the DPF - it is indeed about protecting the engine itself. You know that gunk buildup and oil gelling issues that have also been discussed ad nauseum here? That among other things is what a 229.52 oil is designed to deal with and an API CK-4 oil isn't.
This has yet again crossed the ad nauseum line, so I am bowing out. It's a free country and you can believe whatever you want and you can even preach about it in your ignorance like you are doing, but that does not make it true. Run whatever oil you want and enjoy your Merc in good health.
Last edited by Diabolis; 09-22-2023 at 01:21 PM.
Reason: Typo
P.S. The Challenger blew up because the politically appointed executives didn't listen to the Morton Thiokol engineers that designed the O-rings, knew that at those low temperatures the rubber would indeed be brittle and not provide a good seal and actually tried to stop the launch. NASA is a non-profit entity but it is indeed very much taxpayer funded.
Actually it had to do alot more than with temperature. That valve assembly has a double O-ring feature that was not adequate for the temperatures it would see when in operation. Others prior to challenger had blow by of the inner and I believe outer O-ring which was noted several times. Was noted on challenger as well. Either way the original engineers were indeed blown off by the other engineers and execs (with mulitple masters/phds/chemical engineering/rocket science/ya name it degrees) who wanted to keep the schedule and sent it anyways. Those "execs" being deemed as some business or political exec kind of releaves them of how responsible they actually were and the knowledge they actually had not to mention there roots as prior engineers and astronaut/engineers. Anyhow it wasnt as simple as a frozen O-ring and the go order.
My experience is the more often and louder one says this the less likely it is true, sort of like the drunk who claims he's OK to drive.
If it concerns you, use Chevron Delo XLE 15w-40 or 10W-30. It meets CK-4 and MB 228.51, which I think is the oldest standard that addresses DPFs.
Delo 15w40 (or equivelant dyno oil) has serviced my truck for 172k miles with 15k mile oil change intervals. CK4 is the latest US rating for diesels, previous ones were also rated for DPFs. I believe CK4 came out same time as the SCR addition to the emissions systems in light to heavy duty diesel engines in the US. Anyhow there is a difference in conventional and synthetic holding that rating and amount of miles ya want to get out of your OCIs. CK4 is good stuff IMHO just maybe not for everything.
W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars, EQE 4Matic+ on order
Originally Posted by Quint22
Actually it had to do alot more than with temperature. That valve assembly has a double O-ring feature that was not adequate for the temperatures it would see when in operation. Others prior to challenger had blow by of the inner and I believe outer O-ring which was noted several times. Was noted on challenger as well. Either way the original engineers were indeed blown off by the other engineers and execs (with mulitple masters/phds/chemical engineering/rocket science/ya name it degrees) who wanted to keep the schedule and sent it anyways. Those "execs" being deemed as some business or political exec kind of releaves them of how responsible they actually were and the knowledge they actually had not to mention there roots as prior engineers and astronaut/engineers. Anyhow it wasnt as simple as a frozen O-ring and the go order.
Yup - correct on all counts. They were finding blow-by past the first of the two o-rings on the SRBs they were recovering from prior shuttle launches. I think Netflix released a good documentary mini-series on the subject a few years ago (not the crappy movies - an actual documentary), and Wikipedia also has a decent section / summary of what transpired.
Sorry for the thread hijack everyone - back to regular argui... - er, discussion.
I am a VW diesel mechanic. I use Schaeffers. The VW BEW diesel has bearing issues with the cam by design. You can really see the difference in customers that use Schaeffers oil. We have been using it for 15 years now. My ALH engine now has 400k using that oil. It's all I feed my OM642
I am a VW diesel mechanic. I use Schaeffers. The VW BEW diesel has bearing issues with the cam by design. You can really see the difference in customers that use Schaeffers oil. We have been using it for 15 years now. My ALH engine now has 400k using that oil. It's all I feed my OM642
An ALH with >300k miles .... ya gont say. Using that engine as a reference refering to your oil making it last that long probably isnt the best arguement. My cummins making it to 170k miles on conventional delo 15w40 should be an add for delo then.
An ALH with >300k miles .... ya gont say. Using that engine as a reference refering to your oil making it last that long probably isnt the best arguement. My cummins making it to 170k miles on conventional delo 15w40 should be an add for delo then.
API CK-4 15w40 diesel oils (conventional or synthetic) have excellent wear protection. They're really an excellent deal for the quality you're getting. Oil analysts on my 642 with 15w40 has very low wear metals.
09-20-2023, 11:07 AM
