Replacement Speakers
12-22-2007, 04:56 PM
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W123 200T -86
Replacement Speakers
I want to replace the original speakers with some better sounding while still using the original speaker seats in the dash and the roof in the rear of my wagon.
What size are they, front and rear, and is there anything special I need to think of when doing this?
Any special tricks to get the dash covers and the rear cover of (haven't looked yet..)?
What size are they, front and rear, and is there anything special I need to think of when doing this?
Any special tricks to get the dash covers and the rear cover of (haven't looked yet..)?
02-02-2008, 12:48 PM
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1985 300TDt
I want to replace the original speakers with some better sounding while still using the original speaker seats in the dash and the roof in the rear of my wagon.
What size are they, front and rear, and is there anything special I need to think of when doing this?
Any special tricks to get the dash covers and the rear cover of (haven't looked yet..)?
What size are they, front and rear, and is there anything special I need to think of when doing this?
Any special tricks to get the dash covers and the rear cover of (haven't looked yet..)?
4", front and rear. The factory speakers will be paper cones and can't handle much power.
rear:
remove the headliner cover to get at them. You'll see 4 screws at the back when you open the hatch and there are two more at the inner end of the cover, past the speaker holes. Pry out the light and disconnect it then pull the whole cover back 1 to 2 inches - it's hung by a couple straps that it needs to be free of. You will also have to extract the sides from under the rubber (which is the least fun part of replacing the whole thing) and then the whole thing can come out. The speakers themselves are on brackets held to the frame by 3 screws - replacing them is pretty straightforward and I suggest drilling 2 new holes in those brackets to complete a more modern mounting configuration.
While you have that headliner cover off, you may as well replace the struts for the rear hatch. There's just one bolt for each that you have to remove and it is also exposed by removing that piece - may as well save yourself the trouble of removing it again in a few years. I got my struts for $30, shipped off Ebay.
front:
there are a few ways to attack these - the factory speakers snap into the holes with some tensioning clips so you can just pry them out but dropping new ones in is a different story as nobody really makes speakers with those clips so you have to improvise a little. Many of us take two of the mounting ears off a new speaker, then drill 2 holes in the deck to pass the screws through to secure them. You can fiddle 3.5" speakers through sideways and do everything from above but it's worth your time to try to get 4" units up from below as they sound quite a bit better. You can access both locations pretty easily: just remove the lower dash panel under the steering wheel and the glove box liner. The speaker grilles in the dash are freed with the one screw you can see, then you slide it towards the middle of the car about half and inch to free one hook into the dash then it's mostly free; there's one more latch on a forward corner that you won't be able to see; it's on the interior side of the piece... just lift towards that corner and wiggle upwards and it should come free.
As for which speakers to use... everyone has their favorites and your decision will be weighted towards how much cutting you want to do on the speaker grilles. I didn't want to make any mmodifications to the interior of the cabin so I used Pyle PLS-40 2-ways in the back and Pyramid 4477 3-ways in the front, both rated over 50W RMS, sound great and I was able to hide them under unmodified grilles. The rears limit you severely because of vertical clearance - the only way to get a good 2-way speaker to not hit that headliner cover is to sink it 1/4" or so below the surface of the bracket and that puts the speaker's magnet very close to the roof... the Pyle's I used were designed specifically for slim applications and they're not the best 2-ways I've ever heard but they're certainly better than average. Sinking the Pyramid 3-ways 1/4" below the deck up front did the same thing... large protrusion on top of the speaker stays below the grille. Passing a large-ish speaker into those positions then securing them with a couple of screws takes patience and you'll likely have some lingering evidence on your hands to prove it, but they *will* get up there and the difference in sound quality is totally worth it imho.
I used rubber plumbing washers as spacers to double as vibration insulators.
Are you replacing the head unit as well? Is the center console fader still in effect?
I have many pictures of my installations; I'll post them after this one
Last edited by EricLee31; 02-02-2008 at 12:56 PM.
02-02-2008, 12:55 PM
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rear speakers...
there's nothing tricky about the mounts or the wiring so I didn't take any pictures of that but these detail the modifications I made with the extra holes in the bracket (used one new speaker as a template) and how I sunk them so that they didn't interfere with the headliner cover.
The second photo shows the Pyramid 3-ways on the left and the Pyle 2-ways on the right and the vast height difference between the two. I originally tried the Pyramids in back but it was just impossible w/o cutting holes in the headliner cover - w/o sinking them, the magnet was already touching the roof. These are the same speakers I was later able to sneak up under the front deck.
there's nothing tricky about the mounts or the wiring so I didn't take any pictures of that but these detail the modifications I made with the extra holes in the bracket (used one new speaker as a template) and how I sunk them so that they didn't interfere with the headliner cover.
The second photo shows the Pyramid 3-ways on the left and the Pyle 2-ways on the right and the vast height difference between the two. I originally tried the Pyramids in back but it was just impossible w/o cutting holes in the headliner cover - w/o sinking them, the magnet was already touching the roof. These are the same speakers I was later able to sneak up under the front deck.
02-02-2008, 01:02 PM
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1985 300TDt
front speakers...
Thes pics are the 3.5" speakers I used initially but the concepts are the same for the 4"; I just had to pass those up from below; these I could get through the existing holes sideways. These are mostly just so you can see what you'll be working with.
Thes pics are the 3.5" speakers I used initially but the concepts are the same for the 4"; I just had to pass those up from below; these I could get through the existing holes sideways. These are mostly just so you can see what you'll be working with.
02-08-2008, 04:31 PM
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W123 200T -86
4", front and rear. The factory speakers will be paper cones and can't handle much power.
rear:
remove the headliner cover to get at them. You'll see 4 screws at the back when you open the hatch and there are two more at the inner end of the cover, past the speaker holes. Pry out the light and disconnect it then pull the whole cover back 1 to 2 inches - it's hung by a couple straps that it needs to be free of. You will also have to extract the sides from under the rubber (which is the least fun part of replacing the whole thing) and then the whole thing can come out. The speakers themselves are on brackets held to the frame by 3 screws - replacing them is pretty straightforward and I suggest drilling 2 new holes in those brackets to complete a more modern mounting configuration.
While you have that headliner cover off, you may as well replace the struts for the rear hatch. There's just one bolt for each that you have to remove and it is also exposed by removing that piece - may as well save yourself the trouble of removing it again in a few years. I got my struts for $30, shipped off Ebay.
front:
there are a few ways to attack these - the factory speakers snap into the holes with some tensioning clips so you can just pry them out but dropping new ones in is a different story as nobody really makes speakers with those clips so you have to improvise a little. Many of us take two of the mounting ears off a new speaker, then drill 2 holes in the deck to pass the screws through to secure them. You can fiddle 3.5" speakers through sideways and do everything from above but it's worth your time to try to get 4" units up from below as they sound quite a bit better. You can access both locations pretty easily: just remove the lower dash panel under the steering wheel and the glove box liner. The speaker grilles in the dash are freed with the one screw you can see, then you slide it towards the middle of the car about half and inch to free one hook into the dash then it's mostly free; there's one more latch on a forward corner that you won't be able to see; it's on the interior side of the piece... just lift towards that corner and wiggle upwards and it should come free.
As for which speakers to use... everyone has their favorites and your decision will be weighted towards how much cutting you want to do on the speaker grilles. I didn't want to make any mmodifications to the interior of the cabin so I used Pyle PLS-40 2-ways in the back and Pyramid 4477 3-ways in the front, both rated over 50W RMS, sound great and I was able to hide them under unmodified grilles. The rears limit you severely because of vertical clearance - the only way to get a good 2-way speaker to not hit that headliner cover is to sink it 1/4" or so below the surface of the bracket and that puts the speaker's magnet very close to the roof... the Pyle's I used were designed specifically for slim applications and they're not the best 2-ways I've ever heard but they're certainly better than average. Sinking the Pyramid 3-ways 1/4" below the deck up front did the same thing... large protrusion on top of the speaker stays below the grille. Passing a large-ish speaker into those positions then securing them with a couple of screws takes patience and you'll likely have some lingering evidence on your hands to prove it, but they *will* get up there and the difference in sound quality is totally worth it imho.
I used rubber plumbing washers as spacers to double as vibration insulators.
Are you replacing the head unit as well? Is the center console fader still in effect?
I have many pictures of my installations; I'll post them after this one
rear:
remove the headliner cover to get at them. You'll see 4 screws at the back when you open the hatch and there are two more at the inner end of the cover, past the speaker holes. Pry out the light and disconnect it then pull the whole cover back 1 to 2 inches - it's hung by a couple straps that it needs to be free of. You will also have to extract the sides from under the rubber (which is the least fun part of replacing the whole thing) and then the whole thing can come out. The speakers themselves are on brackets held to the frame by 3 screws - replacing them is pretty straightforward and I suggest drilling 2 new holes in those brackets to complete a more modern mounting configuration.
While you have that headliner cover off, you may as well replace the struts for the rear hatch. There's just one bolt for each that you have to remove and it is also exposed by removing that piece - may as well save yourself the trouble of removing it again in a few years. I got my struts for $30, shipped off Ebay.
front:
there are a few ways to attack these - the factory speakers snap into the holes with some tensioning clips so you can just pry them out but dropping new ones in is a different story as nobody really makes speakers with those clips so you have to improvise a little. Many of us take two of the mounting ears off a new speaker, then drill 2 holes in the deck to pass the screws through to secure them. You can fiddle 3.5" speakers through sideways and do everything from above but it's worth your time to try to get 4" units up from below as they sound quite a bit better. You can access both locations pretty easily: just remove the lower dash panel under the steering wheel and the glove box liner. The speaker grilles in the dash are freed with the one screw you can see, then you slide it towards the middle of the car about half and inch to free one hook into the dash then it's mostly free; there's one more latch on a forward corner that you won't be able to see; it's on the interior side of the piece... just lift towards that corner and wiggle upwards and it should come free.
As for which speakers to use... everyone has their favorites and your decision will be weighted towards how much cutting you want to do on the speaker grilles. I didn't want to make any mmodifications to the interior of the cabin so I used Pyle PLS-40 2-ways in the back and Pyramid 4477 3-ways in the front, both rated over 50W RMS, sound great and I was able to hide them under unmodified grilles. The rears limit you severely because of vertical clearance - the only way to get a good 2-way speaker to not hit that headliner cover is to sink it 1/4" or so below the surface of the bracket and that puts the speaker's magnet very close to the roof... the Pyle's I used were designed specifically for slim applications and they're not the best 2-ways I've ever heard but they're certainly better than average. Sinking the Pyramid 3-ways 1/4" below the deck up front did the same thing... large protrusion on top of the speaker stays below the grille. Passing a large-ish speaker into those positions then securing them with a couple of screws takes patience and you'll likely have some lingering evidence on your hands to prove it, but they *will* get up there and the difference in sound quality is totally worth it imho.
I used rubber plumbing washers as spacers to double as vibration insulators.
Are you replacing the head unit as well? Is the center console fader still in effect?
I have many pictures of my installations; I'll post them after this one
Yeah, I'm replacing the head unit, starting with it soon as I just got a major speeding ticket (about 440 euro's for running 105 on a 70km/h road) and therefore have to delay my purchase, and moving on to 4" 2-way speakers and at last an active subwoofer under the front passanger seat. Head unit will most likely be a used product like Sony Mex-R1.
I will probably buy everything from this company, as I can get a 20% discount through my brother.
http://www.mdssweden.com/?Link=http%...ItemId%3D29153
They cost about 44 euro's per pair, but they also have two more expensive 4" options for 77 and 130 euro's respectively. Will have to check differences in mounting deapth, sound quality demo, and finaly wallet before I decide.
Bro told me I don't have to change the original cables as the speakers are small and probably won't need the extra power than thicker cables can deliver. What do you think?
The center console fader does still work, why you ask?
Thanks for reminding me about the struts.
02-08-2008, 05:31 PM
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1985 300TDt
Bro told me I don't have to change the original cables as the speakers are small and probably won't need the extra power than thicker cables can deliver. What do you think?
The center console fader does still work, why you ask?
Thanks for reminding me about the struts.
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02-09-2008, 04:07 PM
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W123 200T -86
as a guideline, the Pyramids I used (front) are 1.8" and the Pyles are 1.25" (rear)
Yeah I left the original cables; they're not small and it's not like I'm trying to run a 500W speaker off 'em. If you're staying under 75W/channel, I'd leave them.
If your head unit can run all 4 channels independently, you'll want to de-wire the fader. The 2-ohm load it provides, plus only a single pair of wires, will present a couple of challenges to a modern head unit not the least of which is a load that'll burn its amp out sooner rather than later. It's not that hard to do and you'll end up with discrete control over all 4 channels, which will also be good if you go to an outboard amp later.
hehe it's a pain getting the headliner cover back under the rubber - may as well just do it once, especially since new struts are so cheap
Yeah I left the original cables; they're not small and it's not like I'm trying to run a 500W speaker off 'em. If you're staying under 75W/channel, I'd leave them.
If your head unit can run all 4 channels independently, you'll want to de-wire the fader. The 2-ohm load it provides, plus only a single pair of wires, will present a couple of challenges to a modern head unit not the least of which is a load that'll burn its amp out sooner rather than later. It's not that hard to do and you'll end up with discrete control over all 4 channels, which will also be good if you go to an outboard amp later.
hehe it's a pain getting the headliner cover back under the rubber - may as well just do it once, especially since new struts are so cheap
Leaving the store I decided to get the Fanatic's for the front and the Classics in the rear (as I can't hear the rear speakers anyway). But now when I've compared mounting deapths where the Fanatic's are 52mm and the Classic's are 44,5mm to your Pyle's 31,8mm I'm definately dissapointed.
You said your Pyramids didn't fit in the rear, right? I'm fokked, this upgrade is prabably going to get even more costy now.
Looks like the cool fader has to go. Did you just by pass it?
02-09-2008, 10:43 PM
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1985 300TDt
yeah especially for a 3-way with a 40oz magnet but yes, they were too tall to work in the back w/o putting holes in the headliner cover, which I didn't want to do. The magnet was literally touching the roof and the mid/tweeter assembly was still too tall.
yeah... pulled the wire bundle up into the DIN hole and separated all 4 pairs, wired directly to the head. It wasn't really a big deal and now I have permanent flexibility. The fader's only useful for a 2-channel head unit that can handle a 2-ohm load. I'm sure I'll figure out something else to use in that wheel's spot on the console eventually =)
Looks like the cool fader has to go. Did you just by pass it?
02-10-2008, 11:05 AM
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W123 200T -86
I was thinking to put another wheel at the upper console, next to the rear window wiper swich, to use as a stepless interval adjuster for the front window wipers. Now I will probably just use the fader wheel instead and spare the upper console.
