ruslan98270

OMG STOP YOUR CAR, TURN YOUR WHEEL TO ONE SIDE AND STEP ON YOUR GAS PEDAL LIKE YOU WANNA BRAKE IT, KEEP DOING THIS FOR 5 SECONDS IF ONE TIRE FIRE, MEANS YOU GOT OPEN BROTHA

AMGDave

The 190e has a 185mm diff, the S-class has a 210mm diff. No way they are interchangeable. Most likely the guy doesn't know what he's talking about. The easy upgrade for any 190 is to install a 190E-16v diff which is LSD - if you don't mind the 3.27 gears.

ruslan98270

yea bigger diff with w124 e420 axles

AMGDave

Nope, not in a 190E (or any W201 chassis). The W201 axle shafts are shorter because the car is not as wide as the W124. Can't use E-class or S-class axles in a 190. I still say the guy didn't know what he's talking about... I'd eat my hat if that 190 for sale actually had an LSD from any S-class.

whipplem104

The asr axles in the w124 are much narrower than the non asr axles. So it might be possible to put the 210mm diff in a 190 with asr axles to take up extra width. I do not know the measurements but it might be possible.

griff12ga

Hi. This question is at more of a kindergarten level relative to the others on this thread. Also, whereas most folks here sound like they're trying to make the car more sporty, i'm trying to make mine a bit more rally-car or truck like. I suppose it's mostly directed at AMGDave or John Bicht but I'd appreciate anyone's advice.

As context, I have a totally stock 1987 300td without asd or any type of traction control (it does have abs). It's been my snow car for the past 6 years, driving from CT up into NH and VT on weekends to ski (i.e., when it snows hard, i'm the first on the road instead of the one sleeping in). I run it on a good set of 4 snow tires, which make the handling/braking fantastic and predictable in the snow, and it hasn't ever gotten me truly stuck (even on nh and vt hills although I have to keep the momentum up of course). The car is in great shape with minimal/no rust (yet - it's originally from FL) and so rather than get something else i'd like to increase the utility of this car. I'd like a bit more confidence in getting moving when the snow is deep or i'm on a hill, and the only thing i can think of would be a locking or limited slip diff. I have a well-trusted independent mechanic, and he'd be doing the work.

So, given that most of this thread is about coupes and gas cars wanting to run a faster quarter mile whereas i'm more interested in turning my mercedes into a subaru...

1. does the basic idea make sense, and do you think an lsd would make my car significantly more useful in snow? the tires have to spin a bit in order to dig through the snow, i just want them to spin together. is there a disadvantage other than $ (i hear lsd's can cause you to slide more as both wheels tend to break loose rather than one, but that doesn't bother me so long as it remains controllable by moderating the power)

2. is there an lsd i can buy and install in my 1987 diesel wagon that doesn't require modification, ideally from the factory? is there any way to get that 100% lockup under 19mph, or would it be just the ~35% lockup (i assume my not having ASD impacts this)? my main concern is getting going from a stop and keeping speed up while climbing a hill (currently i look in the rearview mirror and often see a single rooster tail shooting out from one side of the car).

3. should i expect to pay 1k to 1.5k for the unit and installation?

4. any other ideas or suggestions (besides buying a subaru - i like my diesel a lot)?

5. off topic, but someone was mentioning suspension - is there a stiffer set up i can install that doesn't lower ride height (ideally, it'd increase the ride height a bit)? i bottom out the front end on occasion when bombing around snow-covered VT hills.

not directly related, but to get in on the snow tire discussion: i have had great luck in all types of snow and ice with studded Nokian hakka 2's (currently the hakka 5). probably less good on dry roads than the blizzak, but i think they're the best tire you can have for the snow on one of these cars. they totally transform the level of control you have, and i often find myself cruising at 60+ (when no cars are around) in 2-4 inches of snow with good directional and speed control.

Thanks.

AMGDave

Basically yes, this does make sense - the LSD will make both rear tires spin together, and should help significantly on snow or ice. And you are correct that when the rear end gets loose under power it's more likely to go sideways; however driver skill comes into play here - back off the throttle and countersteer.



Yes, you can buy the factory LSD, hopefully it's still available brand new. It would be ~35% lockup which is fine for what you want. If you wanted 100% lockup (via ASD) you'd need to buy a used ASD diff, rebuild it (new clutch pack), swap axles, add a hydraulic pump to feed it, and add a manual on/off switch on the console somewhere. Not worth the effort, IMO. The 35% will do what you want on snow & ice and get you twin rooster tails.



Probably not, unless you can locate a used one to rebuild. A new one is $1640 MSRP, lowest price I know of would be about $1150 to your door. Plus new bearings, seals, fluid, etc figure a solid $1400 in parts, plus roughly 10 hours labor (maybe more). You could reduce the labor by removing the diff from the car and taking it to a rear end shop to have the LSD installed; or ship it to WhippleM104 (dealer tech in WA) who might be willing to do it for you at a fair price. Figure closer to $2k with a new diff & labor. Now, if you could find a used one (typically $300-$500) and rebuild it (+$300 in parts, plus labor) that might shave ~$500 off the total, getting you back near $1500. This is what I did, btw - photos are here.



The only other suggestion would be to find a 1990-95 300D/E300 with optional ASD, but they are relatively rare, and may need the clutch pack replaced anyway (~$300 in parts and 10+ hours labor). I searched for 2 years to find my '93 with ASD & heated seats and then it turned out the clutches were worn... had maybe 5% lock most of the time and maybe 10% when ASD engaged. I sold the car to my sister in CA where the ASD isn't needed so it never did get fixed.



Yes, you can get taller springs. But first I'd measure your current ride height, from the wheel center to the bottom edge of the fender lip. Should be somewhere around 15" (approx). The EPC indicates your car came with #22 front springs, although I've found some early 87 diesels had the taller #23's... hard to tell without measuring the spring wire diameter, or reading the part number stamped on the bottom coil. Last I heard, the #23 springs were no longer available. If so, the Cabrio springs are similar (or perhaps 400E) and might increase the ride height. The Cabrio would be stiffer, the 400E softer. I happen to have a pair of brand new Cabrio springs that I'd sell if you need them. But first check the thickness of the springs pads (1pt to 4 pt)... if you have 1pt pads now, swapping to thicker 4pt might do what you want without changing springs. Shoot me an email if you want to discuss more about the spring swap. Remember that an alignment should be performed after a ride height change (preferably at the dealer).

griff12ga

thanks for the reply dave. I'm going to look into the cost of parts and labor and figure out what to do for both the diff and the springs. i'll let you know should something productive (i.e., costly ) come of it. thanks again.

AMGDave

Update on the factory 210mm LSD, p/n 126 350 40 23, from MBUSA:

"Germany has 15 on order with an expected release date in middle of February - but don't count on it. Bad news is that date always changes; the good news is they will eventually get them."

ruslan98270

r200 with custom axles coming soon...

EspenW

Great thread!

Whats the difference between LSD and ASD?

LSD locks up more than 35%?

I have ASD and I love it!


Espen

AMGDave

No, it's the other way around:

LSD = 35% lockup (max, when new)
ASD = 35% lockup (max, when new), and 100% lock (max) when ASD is engaged

Put another way, ASD is based on a standard LSD, but adds hydruaulics to fully lock the diff when the ASD computer says to (under 19mph). Details are here. ASD is more desireable than LSD; but it's difficult to retrofit if the car didn't come with ASD from the factory... in that case, LSD is the easiest option.

The percentages gradually reduce over time as the internal clutch pack wears. When the internal clutch pack is worn out, ASD will have very low lockup (say, <10%) even when ASD is engaged, and even less (near zero) when ASD is not engaged. A new clutch pack (~$300 in parts and ~10 hours labor) will fix that.

bsmuwk

ok.

Well, I think I'm going to need some clarification on all this.


Aside from welding and a quaife...
Would I be able to stick an LSD from a cosworth into my 92 CE? What would be the absolute easiest route to do an LSD on my coupe?

whipplem104

Quaife is the easiest and probably the cheapest. Any factory lsd will need to be rebuilt and again and again. Parts and labor are expensive. The Quaife is in and done forever. The 16v diff is a 185 mm and will require new half axles for your car.
PM me if you want more info.

AMGDave

+1 for what Whipple said. You have a 210mm diff in your coupe now, swapping in the 190E-16 diff would be a downgrade. Just install the Quaife...

MaxMatt

I need some clarification as well before I start looking for the right diff.

I have a US-spec 93' 300E 2.8, but I am located in Europe.

According to the chart on Dave's site, both 3.06(Euro M104) and 2.65(US M104) use the same LSD carrier (126-350-40-23).

Does it mean that all I have to do is find a Euro 2.8/3.2 W124 with ASD and replace the main gear in the diff with my 2.65 gear before installing it in my car?

In fact I'd be happy to source a cheap Euro M104 parts car with ASD and swap the whole system to my car altogether to get full ASD functionality. Is this possible, while maintaining the stock 2.65 gear ratio?

I want my car to be the perfect, quiet autobahn-cruiser with some added traction on snow/ice.

AMGDave

Basically, yes; although I'm not sure what donors you'll find. I don't know if ASD was ever offered on the W124 gassers... AFAIK, they all had ASR instead. The W140 diesel had optional ASD but it's a pretty rare bird to find in a salvage yard.


Obtaining true ASD on a car that didn't come with it from the factory is nearly impossible, but you could maybe get manual ASD (flip a switch to engage the hydraulics)... still not worth the effort. Just accept that LSD is good enough. The "A" just makes the locking function automatic to 19mph when wheelspin is detected.


LSD will work fine for your needs. Since your car has the 210mm diff you could just get the Quaife QDF5V which is a bolt-in... I would highly recommend this, or just buy the 126-350-40-23 brand new. Remember if you got a used factory LSD it will need $$$ in new clutch packs, by the time you're done refreshing it, you didn't save much (if any) money. Here's a European vendor that shows pricing on the factory LSD:
http://mbspecialist.com/mercedes_web.../?q=1263504023

The Quaife runs around 775 GPB direct from the mfr, and has no clutch packs to wear out:
http://www.quaife.co.uk/shop/search/results/qdf5v

MaxMatt

Euro M104s were available with ASD as an option. It's not that rare actually:
The PN is 124 350 93 14 (REAR AXLE HOUSING WITH DIFFERENTIAL; MAN. 5-SPEED/AUTO 4-SPEED TRANSMISSION
ASD 1:3.06) for the whole differential assembly.

Here's one for sale in Germany:
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...#ht_1581wt_905

Does this change anything?

I value Your opinion greatly Dave and thank You for such a quick reply. Perhaps, what I've written now gives some new light on the case?

One more thing. 2.82 seems to use the same carrier as 2.65 and 3.06. 2.82 is what W140 350SD used. There is such a diff for sale on my local listing (W140 350SD ASD). Will that fit as well?

AMGDave

Oh cool! Nice to see they are more common in Europe. That definitely does help. You have more options now, you could get the used donor, but again remember that it's a lot of work to tear down the diff & replace the clutch pack (and, some special tools will have to be fabricated or purchased). I've done this twice and I wouldn't do it again unless the price of a new LSD was sky-high.

I'd still recommend the Quaife if you can afford it, but the factory LSD is fine for normal street use. You could take a gamble on a used unit having enough life left in the clutches to last a while longer but if you install it and find out the clutches are shot, then you have a lot of re-work. Basically depends on how much time and $$$ you have!

And yes, the same LSD carrier (126-350-40-23) fits several diffs, including the S350 ASD. However the diff housing, flanges, and rear cover may be different on the W140. If you are just buying it to get the carrier, that's not a problem. If you intend to try and swap the complete differential assembly, get one from a W124 with the same flanges & cover to make it easier.

MaxMatt

Will I need to adjust backlash or preload after replacing the gears on the donor diff with my 2.65 ones?

AMGDave

Actually you would retain your existing differential and 2.65 gears, and just replace the center section (ring gear carrier). You do not want to swap the R&P into a different case... read this article for more info.

With just swapping the carrier, backlash and preload should be checked, but on all the LSD's I've built so far, it was close enough to spec that adjustment wasn't really required. They were all just a hair out of spec but some adjustment shim thicknesses are no longer available from MB, and I didn't feel like trying to have a machine shop modify a thicker one down to 0.05mm accuracy.

Usually when re-using the original shims (don't mix up left & right!!!) it ends up with the backlash being just in spec and preload being just out of spec (slightly loose). The diffs have all worked perfectly and are quiet, zero gear whine. The photos on my website show how to measure the backlash & preload using home-made brackets and a dial gauge.
http://www.w124performance.com/images/W124_diffs/

If you are thinking of rebuilding a used one, here is the FSM procedure:
http://www.w124performance.com/docs/...ebuild_FSM.pdf

MaxMatt

Dave, Your knowledge is priceless.

I looked at the photos numerous times before, but I still don't understand any of the measurements or how they can be adjusted.

Still - I understand that to avoid all the really tricky stuff I will be better off just fitting my ring gear on the LSD carrier and swapping it into my diff. Do I understand correctly?

The final question is whether my diff with LSD carrier will be able to work with the ASD system from the donor M104 car?

AMGDave

It's described in the FSM. The adjustment is done via changing the thickness of the shims on each side of the bearing carrier (in 0.05mm increments). This moves the ring gear closer or farther away from the pinion (changing backlash) and also increases or decreases pressure on the bearings (changing preload).



Basically, yes. The easiest install will be to obtain an LSD carrier and install that in your existing diff, replacing the stock/open carrier. You could even try doing this without measuring/adjusting the backlash & preload with a very good chance of success, although I'd still measure it just to double check (before & after - the idea is to make the 'after' numbers at least match the 'before', even if this is slightly out of FSM specs).



The ASD system on the donor car would likely end up in the dumpster, unless you wanted to try and retrofit a "manual" ASD in your car, but this would require installing a tandem pump, hydraulic lines, solenoids, etc, etc. Pretty low ROI unless you have a specific need for it.

MaxMatt

I really have the need for ASD.

This is the city, where I live:


Just below the mountain on the right. Most of my neighbours use 4x4s in winter, but I'd prefer to use my W124, which is a much better cruiser.

I'd like to retrofit the whole ASD system from the donor 320E with working ASD into my car. Everything - starting from the diff, pump and control module and ending with the dash traingle light

AMGDave

Wow! Now that's a serious winter climate. However, a fresh LSD unit should work just as well... the ASD, IMO, just helps compensate for clutch pack wear (to a point) by applying additional pressure to the clutch pack. The really nice thing is the dash warning light as this gives you visual notification of wheelspin before you can even feel it. Very, very useful on icy roads. But for pure traction, slap on a set of studded Hakkas and with LSD you'll go just about anywhere even without true ASD. The ASR system is even better. Now that I've got a couple of E420's with ASR as daily drivers, I'm sold on ASR for winter use. It's plain awesome.



I know you don't want to hear this... but if you really want full ASD, you are much better off selling your car and buying one that had ASD from the factory. The only way I'd even consider attempting this conversion is if you were able to get a compete donor car that you could swipe all the parts from. And I wouldn't want to be pressed for time, i.e. have to go get everything off the car before it goes to the crusher, etc. That's a surefire way to miss some little required item, lol! Since ASD cars are much more common in Europe, it shouldn't be too hard to find one to replace your non-ASD car.