RBYCC

I couldn't agree with you more

I have no problem with sports, but I must look at a practical compromise...
If you live in certain areas of the USA you run into street freeze thaw cycles..
Go into a major urban area and you dodging potholes in the very early spring..
Hit one and there goes your rim, tire and sometimes suspension...

If I was tracking the car or doing autocross, I might consider the sports...
But they really are overkill on a two ton sedan with what now is less then average power.

The stock suspension design of the W124 was ground breaking for a sedan, and the Sportline put the icing on the cake...

If you just want to have the current look, then slam the car..but how many of the slammed W124's ever are driven to anywhere near the limit in a corner !!!

I'm an old man and always look at compromise ..never tried to push the envelope, but always went fast over many years...

YNVDIZW124

...as with all pissing contests online the point fades away....

Options are Sports, HD, comforts, sachs, monroe, kyb, koni....choose one if your only going to drive on the streets. If you don't race your car get the cheapest ones with a good warranty.

I go 70 on a real 35 and my tires and suspension are pretty good at cornering so there...

BTW - when you replace the struts get sport line bump stops and get a smaller spring pad..

ksing44

Maybe I should just get one HD to replace the bad one and say the heck with it. Do I really need a pair after 6 years and 60K miles if they have a "lifetime guarantee"? I was kind of excited about getting 4 new Sports to finally find out if it made a difference, but maybe I should just save the money. Like Zed and others, I do think the Sports are a better choice for a lowered car, just as Bilstein recommends, even if HD are "ok" too. My car is ~ 1 to 1.25 inches lower, like a Sportline. The slightly lowered stance, with stiffer springs and HD shocks, is a definite improvement over what I had when the car was stock. I am not racing, but I do appreciate the difference in daily driving on backcountry roads and even on the highway. The car is just incredibly stable, always. I know I will always wonder if the car would feel better with the Sports, but I don't want to waste my money.

Options

1. Do nothing and let it leak. The car seems ok, but a bit lower at the one wheel. = $0.00
2. 1 new HD is about $128.00, plus $50.00? to install = $178
3. 2 new HD is about $256.00, plus $100.00? to install = $356
4. 4 new sports is about $440.00, plus 200.00? to install = $640.00
5. Buy a new 3-series BMW = $45,000.00

It might actually cost a bit less for the installs, but I estimated.

ZedStyle

with even more due respect, i think you missed the point of the HD's in that article. they used them just to compare numbers between the OEM shocks they were testing, nowhere do they recommend or use them. here's something else from your Porsche article:

"The only dimensional differences we found were in the shock piston shaft lengths shown in Table 7 with the front RoW sport piston shaft length 12mm shorter than on the USA shocks which interestingly is the amount the front of the subject car was lowered with the RoW sport springs. The rear RoW sport and USA sport shock piston shafts are 15mm and 5mm shorter respectively than the USA standard piston shaft."

so even Porsche uses shorter shocks for a lowered suspension.. go figure, they must know as little as me...

Also:
"installing the front and rear Bilstein HD aftermarket shocks would likely bias the handling more toward understeer compared to the OEM suspensions."

it is interesting to note that they only tested the HD for comparative purposes, and nowhere do they recommend using them over the sport shocks they tested. the shock application they use in their conclusion is the shorter shock with the new shorter springs, the HD shocks are not mentioned other than to compare its dynamics, so i'm not sure i actually 'missed' anything at all.

like you said, the shocks don't lower the car, and everyone on the board has one of three different types of springs, so your comment on why mercedes didn't 'slam' the sportline is moot, since we're all more or less on the same ride height give or take a few mm. so i don't see how the sports are 'overkill', when you yourself said they have the same damping.
the only difference is the sports were specifically designed for lower cars, which ksing and most people on here have. ergo, we go with the sports.

my car is definitely all show and no go, but i also probably won't be paying to replace my shocks for at least the next decade.


edit: it's completely anecdotal, but just for giggles:

> After reviewing technical documents from Bilstein on the Sport and Heavy
> Duty (HD) dampers/shocks, and talking at length with a Bilstein engineer
> in San Diego, here are the technical differences between "Sport" and "HD":
>
> valving: "Sport" 3% difference between "HD";
> compression length: "Sport" 10mm shorter than "HD";
> exteneded lenghth: "Sport" 30mm shorter than "HD".
>
> According to the engineer, "Sport" was modelled after MB's "SportLine"
> shocks

http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforu...7&postcount=12


but like you said, it's up to the owner and his money, and my money is on what the experts at bilstein (and apparently porsche) say and do, and that is a shorter shock for a lower suspension.

Bigpete123

lol, RBYCC, you keep saying that a lot of us slam our cars... but you are on the same springs as I am... H&R's are probably the most popular lowering springs on this board. But you keep implying that we have made all of these performance vs. looks compromises. So if lowering the car is such a compromise, and your car is a pure-performance machine, why'd you lower your car?

You've also added 18x8" rims... so you've added tons of unsprung weight also. I don't understand that either if you believe they are such a performance drag.

I'm totally confused by all of this frankly. If the sports and HD's are essentially the same shock except for the length, I don't understand your argument... The HD is longer, and that's it right? So I don't see why you beleive there are performance gains by using the longer shock if it's the same...

I know what you're saying about the shorter shocks perhaps wearing out sooner if they are forced to over-extend. By I'm not taking my mercedes out to Moab, removing the the sway bar links and rockcrawling... If I find myself in a situation where my suspension articulates that much, I have much bigger problems on my hands than my shocks failing.

And as far as the whole porsche argument... we're not driving porsches on this board so I find it irrelevant. Especially given the fact that their comparison is stock vs. HD... not HD vs Sport.

In the end, HD's and Sports both work fine. Both are industry-leading shocks. The rest of it seems to be in our heads.

RBYCC

Let me make a final comment....

I lowered my car for the additional performance the engine makes....
Lower CG along with a perfomance spring shock combo better handles the torque.

Yes I added additional unsprung weight with larger wheels and tires...But they are required to handle the torque...

So my car sat with an unmodified engine and suspension for eighteen years from the date I took delivery.
Needed nothing more with 177HP/188LBFT torque.
But jump to 325HP/350LBFT torque and wouldn't you think some mods are needed to handle the increase of power ????

I can go fast in a straight line..
I can go fast around corners...
My tires don't rub..
My car doesn't bottom out....
My tires fit the rims as designed...

Guess I'm doing something wrong and should take the turbo off, slam the car, stretch tires beyond design specs and just sit in a parking lot and look cool

ksing44

should I get one new HD shock?

Saijin_Naib

Ksing, I'd say if you have the money available to do it, get the 4 Sports, if only for those of us who can't afford to yet

ShanMan

no, you should buy a pair...regardless how long they are.

ksing44

I am dying to try the Sports. It would be great to know from my own personal experience if there is any difference between HD and Sports. I have a feeling the car will be better with the Sports, even though the car feels pretty darn good with the Eibach ProKit and Bilstein HD combo.

Just have to say it again. Your car really does look good with the new wheels!!! Did you get the lugbolt problem solved?

Saijin_Naib

Thanks man!

No (grumble grumble) :L Right now its the 2 new fronts and the 2 15holers for the rear. I have to focus my paychecks on helping with bills around the house first, then to getting my CE ready to pass inspection. It's going to fail very hard right now with the way the exhaust system is. After I get that settled, I will hunt for the new lugs and then I want to do H&R Sports + Bilstein Sports and new swaybars/bushings all around. That's my goal for this summer

Your car looks clean as always ;0 I may have to look into the Eibach springs you are using, I think they are the same drop as the H&R and may be cheaper...

dan_c

now that was funny!....
but what about another type of "you"s, that have the next philosophy: horse power is just a fraction of the ecuation that "defines performance cars". the way you transfer those ponyes to the road is another part. and I don't mean to be rude (maight be my english, but I mean well), but you are not the only one that's had your share of racing. and, if I may, I would like ta state my own conclusions after a few miles...

horse power = c71t with out control

no horses to play with?! = work on your handling

I used to be a lot faster with less then powerfull cars, just with precise handling and absolute controle.
same thing with my car...really pissed I didn't go to the track with the CE, and by track I don't mean drag strip, I mean turns, streights, highs and lows, just to make a statement... I have control, I dare to push it further, and when it loses I can handle it!
you already have the extra horses, but are you shure you can handle the car beter then I do?! and I'm still nowhere near 325hp/350lbft.

I don't know mutch about valve dimesions, travel lengths, and other stuff... when shoks and springs come to mind, I test, then talk!
Porsche experience?! what does the 300ce and the Carrera have in comon? wheight, proportions, geometry? I think the're as diferent as russians and north coreeans... they get along? good... they think somewhat alike? so be it... do you feed them the same things? get ready for ww3!

Bilstein techs say what they say, because they know what they have made!
what is the next step on a Porsche if I was to, let's say swap the kkk k26-2's with something like bb gt 35's? coilovers? and who makes those? are there any coilovers for the c124's?

HD's are one thing, Sports another, and comforts... well the last ones just are!

RBYCC

Try to give you a simple answer to your "What does the Carrera and the 300CE have in common " ?

Totally different suspension geometry which would logically lead to your query...

But the spring rate of the W124 H&R spring is very similar to the M030 Porsche spring rate.

That's why I matched the springs with the HD's after speaking with a Bilstein engineer.
In my application with type of driving I do, Sports would be overkill.

A Porsche goes round and round much faster because of the weight, suspension design and lower CG.

You look for compatibility of the spring rate of the progressive unit you are using with the shock absorber, which doesn't absorb but merely dampens.

Easier to look at what came before then to guess what is up ahead....:

Can I handle a car better then you..I don't know.
At sixty years old my reflexes, reaction time, and vision aren't what they were when I was in my twenties.

Raced a 1960 Jag 3.8 MK II sedan competitively and graduated to an Aston Martin DB6 Vantage spec in SVRA racing.
Both ran skinny bias ply tires which always told you their slip angle.
Whole different world with big tires...more like a slot car with no indication when you will break loose.
Much less forgiving...
With the bias ply you controlled a drift through the corners...

Guess will never answer that question, but since I haven't run at ten tenths for many years, I'll give you the advantage....

YNVDIZW124

I can tell anyone from my suspension set ups that H&R and HD's are too stiff for daily driving, Eibachs on comforts are way too soft, Eibachs on HDs are perfect for me with wider tires in the back. If you want better handling it's cheaper to run a staggered setup. Like i said, get it lower by going to a smaller spring pad and get some sportline bump stops.

ksing44

Don't you want HD instead of the Sports? Just kidding, go for the Sports.

I think H&R may be just a tad lower and a tad stiffer. I like my Eibach HD combo, but if I were to do it again I would definitely go for H&R with Bilstein Sports. You have a good plan.

I had to get a new exhaust last year. I ended up getting a two piece aftermarket version that was half the cost of the OEM replacement. It still wasn't cheap and it isn't as quiet as the OEM, but I guess it is OK. Actually I think it sounds a little like a truck now. I guess you get what you pay for.

ksing44

I used to be a lot faster too, but I typically didn't have control. I wrecked more cars as a kid than 4 or more normal folks put together. Let me just say that I learned my lesson and have not done anything wrong since about 1976. I had friends that could do wheelies through all of the gears while passing cars on the shoulder of a highway. They could also go lock to lock sliding back and forth for miles in the snow in any vehicle they were driving. I have to admit that I mostly crashed my cars and flipped my motorcycles. I was young &

Another big part part of the comfort equation is the tires. I only went to a +1 set-up with 16" wheels and tires. I also use H-rated Grand Touring tires inflated to just about the Mercedes recommended pressures. If you run 17" or even bigger V-rated Performance tires with higher psi, then you may very well be stuck in a situation where the comfort of driving in your W124 is totally gone. Actually, I think tires and psi could be bigger parts of the comfort equation than the springs and shocks.

I also think there may be too much rebound with the Eibach HD set-up. I don't really know what I am talking about and I like my set-up, but I think the Sports might tighten things up just right with the Eibachs. I think I will find out one of these days, although for the summer, considering all the posts on this thread, I think I am going to just let the shock leak for a while longer. I'll wait and see if I start to get any weird handling characteristics from the failing shock. So far it seems fine, so why mess with it.

Bigpete123

Ed, I respect you... but frankly your logic doesn't make any sense.

I think:

1) you are letting your personal choices steer your logic rather than being rational, and

2) you like the look of a lowered car with 18's and you're trying to rationalize it by saying that you did it to compensate for the added torque from your TT system...

You're being downright condescending to others who have the same exact mods as you!

RBYCC

My selection wasn't "my personal choice".....
The shop that set up my suspension consulted with a Bilstein engineer who is part of their race program at one of the American Lemans Events at Lime Rock..
Most R&D was done on Porsches and you use the data to match springs and shocks, regardless of the vehicle that they are used on.
For my application the Bilstein engineer recommended the HD's.

I'm not trying to rationalize anything.
Add more then 150LB FT of torque to any chassis and you have to "beef it up"
Increase spring rates which come with a lowering spring.
New heavy duty motor mounts, bushings, along with the shocks and swaybars.
You must realize that the unmodified chassis of the W124, even the 400E and E420 doesn't see the torque I'm producing.

Look at the 500E / E500 which had major chassis mods, same for the 5.0L and 6.0L 16V and 32V AMG vehicles.

You spoke of basic physics and you should then understand the rotary force that is torque...

If I come across condescending, then it's not my intent.

My only position is that the "masses" believe you must use "Sports", even if the vehicle has a stock power train.

I've proven the balance and performance of my selection and I'm very pleased.

As I stated, my chassis remained stock and probably still would be untouched if I didn't install the TT.

Use Sports, H&R's, Eibachs, Koni's, slam it, jack it up, it's all personal preference.

I'm solely commenting on the reality of a performance setup that works with a highly modified drive train...not imagining a "seat of the pants" change, but having empirical data of the power train modification results.

I ran 14.39 in a straight line with zero traction, a stock M103-12V or even a M104-24V may best at 16.50 +.....That's a twenty car lead at the traps.
That shows the difference in power output.

Do what you want, but don't be critical of something that works performance wise.

Read every post on this subject that I have ever made, never criticized the choice of Sports, purely stated that there are options that perform.

When I was young nobody knew what a DTM car was...so we set up our suspensions like "funny cars"....skinny tires in the front, Atlas Bucrons or Goodyear Blue Streak 7" slicks on the rear, extended shackles on the rear leafs that raised the rear, tubular headers or cutouts on the exhaust pipes that you would run open exhaust on the street, 5.12:1 rear gears, 4 miles per gallon....

It's a "rite of passage"...you'll probably shake your head at the next generation and the mods they do to their electric or hydrogen "egg shaped" cars....