Real1shepherd

OK, I've got it narrowed down to two sets:
ElringKlinger/VictorReinz
Felpro

I'm leaning towards the former, I guess because of the name. I only want to do this once and then again when I rebuild and possibly supercharge the engine. Who has had experience with either? Felpro's brag is that their gasket is elastic enough to compensate for a slightly untrue head. My gut reaction is to just have the head surface re-machined although the 'shortcut' is tempting.

Kevin
Car: '92 300TE 4matic

GEDaggett

Felpro is a good set I have used them 3 times on other builds and they are quality. Not sure about the other brand.

Real1shepherd

GEDaggett,
Were these other builds similar to the w124, as in aluminum heads and leaking head gaskets? And if so, did you trust the gasket makers claims and not resurface the head?

Felpro's for me have always been good gaskets sets, but never used them specifically for MB.....

Kevin

GEDaggett

The rebuilds I have done with Felpro is a GM 3.1 v6 Alum head to cast iron Block, GM 1.9 I4 Alum to Alum, Mitsubishi 2.6 I4 twincam Alum to Alum. All three were either leaking into the water jacket or a project rebuild. I never trust the claims of don't plane (resurface) the head. It is just my preference not because I don't trust the gasket but because I would hate to have mis diagnosed it as a bad headgasket and it is actually a warped head...AGAIN!

As far as the headgasket working well for a MB engine it will be fine. I know guys that put them into their Chevy big blocks pushing 600HP with NO2 and they are fine with excessive psi, vibration and all the other things that go along with high HP so they will be fine for this app. I am getting ready to do my 320 (leaking oil to exterior on the passenger side) and I am going with the felpro because I like to stick with what I know works. My preference and opinion is that they are great but you may find some others who like another brands. Hope that all helps.

Real1shepherd

Yes, thanks a lot for the reply/input!

Kevin

GEDaggett

Good luck

hineywineries

I did a valve job on an M103 for a client a few months ago, and getting ready to do one on an 89 300CE I own. Considering it's a $2,500 job in this neck of the woods, It's not worth it to me to save fifty bucks on a valve grind set. I only go OE and not OEM. OE means I buy it from the dealer. Often there is a difference in quality between OE and OEM. I will settle for imperfections in things like oil filters, etc, but not when it comes to critical gaskets and seals that will take hours of my time to do over.

GEDaggett

*please understand the tone of this reply is nto confrontational*

Often times the folks that make the aftermaket Headgaskets (in the case with good companies) have taken into account the flaws in the originals plus they factor in the issues and inovations that other engines have in common. The quality of many of these gaskets (if you go with the good companies) exceeds the gasket that you will get from the dealership, yes even benz. I am not saying go to the local parts store and get the cheapest thing of the shelf, but you also don't have pay and a good deal more for the benz part when there are top quality parts out there that will perform exceedingly well. Anyone who want to get genuine MB parts I totally understand the reasoning and motivation to do so because there is aguarentee ( for the most part) of getting a quality part. Your car your money so it doesn't really matter what I think you should do. But for those who are looking to save a bit on the cost of repairing and want quality parts there are ways to do it. That's the great thing about all this is we get to air our opinions and hopefully help other in the process.

hineywineries

GEDAGGETT,
You make some very good points, but since I'm doing the labor, I will continue to use only OE parts in critical areas. MB does upgrade their parts to improve service life. What I'm saying is what I've experienced over the past 35 years while all the OE parts were made in Germany. These days I check the dealer box with the Stars on it, and it says made in Malaisia, India, Romania, Mexico, Spain, Bulgaria, etc.Things are changing over at Chrysler/Mercedes.

Just to finish up on the OE and OEM thing, There can be a quality difference between say a Mann filter in a box with a star and a Mann filter in a green and yellow box. I have proven this many times. I've put front tranny seals in that were OEM only to have to spend 6 hours removing the tranny again to Install an OE seal, because the OEM one leaked. I don't know why. It might be they take the quality control guy off the line after the MB OE parts are run. Years ago I resealed a steering box about 3 times and it leaked each time. I used a seal kit from the dealer and shipped the car with no leaks.

GEDaggett

That's cool. I understand where you are coming from and I don't disagree. I know the parts I use are usually very good quality But I have had to hunt down those manufacturers that make the good stuff.

Real1shepherd

I agree with GEDagette....in this case it appears from the specs and literature I've read that FelPro addresses the fact that the six cylinder W124's have this whoring, leaking head gasket issue. It's not clear to me if it's from poor machining/design or the fact that some owners let their fans/cooling systems fail to the point where the head gets so hot that it warps. There are a long list of six cylinder autos both domestic & foreign, that have had aluminum head issues.

Other than that I wouldn't argue about OE versus OEM. You get what you pay for and given the various countries where OEM stuff is made, I'm actually surprised that any of it works at all.

I'm not gonna do this head gasket twice and given the fact that they leak with OE equipment and that FelPro has designed a head gasket that compensates for this and does not require re-torquing down the road, my money is on FelPro in this case. Also, the FelPro gasket is as much or more than the OE gasket, depending on your source.

Kevin

hineywineries

Kevin,
I'm not trying to start a *****n contest here, and as a matter of fact, I believe this is a healthy discussion. You said OE gaskets failed, but that was the original gasket that came with the car. They have been improved. To tell a story, years ago I had an 850 Fiat Spyder which I really enjoyed. When the engine mount broke away, I figured it was a bad design which I could redisign. Then I realized that the car had almost 200k on the clock. The point is that you have to consider lenght of service. Also there is no need to retorque headgaskets anymore. In the old days when I was an apprentice we torqued 3 times cold and again hot. Now we torque to a spec and retorque 90 degrees and 90 degrees again with torque to yield stretch bolts.
Peter

Real1shepherd

Peter,
No offense taken at all dude, after all, when I started this thread I was trying to find the BEST head gasket-be it OE or FelPro. I actually don't know if the ElringKlinger/VictorReinz is OE or OEM? I was just assuming it was OE.

Yeah, I know the torque trick....I even went back (before all my tools were stolen) and worked back from bolt 14 to bolt 1 in the two 90 degree stages to loosen the head and then re-torqued to around 70ft/lbs (whatever was described in the MB service manual) and then did the two times (in sequence) of the 90 degree turns. Kind of an odd way to torque a cylinder head, but whatever. I think it helped a little, but for all I know the bolts are stretched out of length (didn't check that), or it hopeless except for a new gasket.

The thing is, the ex had the car for most of its life, even though I bought it new. Around 200K, she had a complete valve job done for it at a MB dealer-new gasket of course and just about three yrs ago. After that it's unclear what happened. What 'I' put together and from what my sons say, she let the motor overheat routinely to some point just under the red and then let the car sit and cool. This was after the valve job and new gasket. At some point in there, I was over at her house and she was complaining about the car over heating. I found both the electric fans to be dead. Turns out the fuse was blown and one fan was shot. I have to conclude one of the two things: either the head job was faulty, or she overheated the engine and warped the head because she didn't under stand how all the fans work together. I've got the engine temp now right back to where it was when new....and that was during a 5,200 mile trip I took with my son this summer-which included stop & go traffic in Phoenix @117 degrees w/AC on!

Either way, I'm stuck with a leaking head gasket and I'm sure tired of dumping/flushing the coolant for fresh, just to get the oil out. On the trip we did that out in the desert one night, because the coolant was starting to look like monkey pooh. I'm sure it didn't help that I was burying those crummy little tuner cars at 130mph on the hwy....well, they started it.;-) The thing is, that W124 wasn't even breathing hard at 130mph, which makes me want to rebuild the motor and supercharge it.....all in good time I guess.

I would consider you an extremely valuable asset here on this forum, due to the fact that you work on MB's all the time. No way am I gonna turn anything into a pissing match with you. You da Man and I welcome your comments!

Kevin

hineywineries

Kevin,
I'm not offended by this thread, and I hope nobody else is either. I'm just trying to offer some advice based on years of experience. To answer the question about why the M103s are prone to this problem, I believe it was a poor design from MB. If you notice the oil pressure hole to the head, the oil return hole from the head, and the coolant hole are grouped in a pattern that a rifle or pistol marksman would envy. There is very little separation between the holes. Overheat the engine and overstress a gasket that is already being pushed to the limit, and you've got problems. Oil goes into the water and leaks down the side of the block. I've never seen water in the oil on this particular engine. The dealer probably installed an upgraded OE gasket Which would have been fine if all the fans were working in Arizona heat.

The M103 is a good engine with just two design flaws: the gasket problem and poor valve guides. Do a valve job and you're good to go. MB has had several design problems over the years. The M130 engines in 70 and 71 were famous for cyl head failures wher steam would start billowing out the exhaust. The M117 V8s wiped out the right bank cam until they were redesigned. The OM 617 5 cyl diesels would all wipe out the cam. MB came out with a kit that required rplacing cam, rockers, and valve cap nuts.

When you do the valve job, make sure the machinist checks the warp on the head. If it is around .003, he can kiss it to clean it up and you won't need to change lash pads. If it is badly warped, he should straighten it before machining.
Peter

Real1shepherd

Peter....I saw that pattern of oil & coolant holes on the head and it's insane. Thanks for passing on the tip about the tolerances on head warp. I certainly did hear about the V-8 woes back in the day as well and I've deliberately stayed clear of them.

I was talking to a guy on another thread about supercharging and he said the throttle linkage setup is all wrong and an intake manifold would have to be fabricated, different management system etc. He said a lot easier and more viable setup would be the turbo. I had my heart set on a blower, but I guess there's a lot of folks driving successful turbo setups.

Kevin