supercharge m104
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From: seattle
1990 300ce supercharged and intercooled
Thank you. I plan on moving the sc and intercooler to the intake side for a really clean look. Basically start over with new parts. All my stuff has been cut apart and remade several times.
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95' AMG SeeThreeSix
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From: seattle
1990 300ce supercharged and intercooled
New dyno results with the 722.6 5speed. Gained quite a bit. 15-20 horsepower.
The low power run is camshaft adv. off. Cam adv. is good for the additional horsepower. No other changes.
The low power run is camshaft adv. off. Cam adv. is good for the additional horsepower. No other changes.
Last edited by whipplem104; Oct 25, 2008 at 12:12 AM. Reason: forgot
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2016 Cls63s AMG
am pretty sure thats what is restraining most of us hahahaha sh!it i would of slamed a 500e engine on my car if i had money
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From: seattle
1990 300ce supercharged and intercooled
You can build a turbo or supercharger system for a lot less than building a v8 car out of one that is not and make a lot more power. The m119 is great but parts and engines are very expensive. I could build an incredible m104 for what gaskets and a timing chain cost on the m119.
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95' AMG SeeThreeSix
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From: seattle
1990 300ce supercharged and intercooled
I have read a little about those. I think someone else built a system for the m104 with one. They are small and compact, but my understanding is that they are limited on power. Low boost applications only. I do not know what there efficiency is either. I would have to investigate to see what the differences are for low boost rather than getting a vortech. The main thing for me has always been that the m103 and m104 need power down low, mainly do to the the low stall on the torque converters. Even with my blower I had my torque converter stall increased to about 2200 rpm. The key to making a car fast is making power in the revs that the car is driven. It is like making horsepower at 5500 rpm would not do you much good. So you have to look at where a linear blower will make power with a peak boost of 6lbs at your red line, vs. the positive displacement blower makes 6lbs from 1000 rpm to red line.
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From: REHOBOTH BEACH DE
88-300CE TWIN TURBO, 99-C43, 05-G55K, 71-280SL, 94-E320 CAB, 08 CLK63 BLACK SERIES
I have read a little about those. I think someone else built a system for the m104 with one. They are small and compact, but my understanding is that they are limited on power. Low boost applications only. I do not know what there efficiency is either. I would have to investigate to see what the differences are for low boost rather than getting a vortech. The main thing for me has always been that the m103 and m104 need power down low, mainly do to the the low stall on the torque converters. Even with my blower I had my torque converter stall increased to about 2200 rpm. The key to making a car fast is making power in the revs that the car is driven. It is like making horsepower at 5500 rpm would not do you much good. So you have to look at where a linear blower will make power with a peak boost of 6lbs at your red line, vs. the positive displacement blower makes 6lbs from 1000 rpm to red line.
The concern isn't at what RPM you produce max HP at, more how low of a RPM can you produce max torque.
Torque determines how fast you move
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From: seattle
1990 300ce supercharged and intercooled
That is what I was getting at. But for example if you were going to race a car only, making low end torque would not be your main objective. Unless you where going to drive around the track at 3500 rpm. My point was make a system that makes power you can use.
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95' AMG SeeThreeSix
Holsets seem to put out more power than most assume from what I'm seeing in various forums. They are primarily bolted on stock 6.0L diesels with high pressure ratios so boost must be pretty much up there 
. People seem to claim similar power numbers to a T61 
Took a look over at the hondatec forums and HX35's tend to start spooling in the 4k range on 1.6L B16 blocks...I don't know enough to really start making assumptions but this could be a pretty cheap turbo that'll start making boost in the lower RPMs on the M103, perhaps 2600-3000?
I sourced a map for you for the HX35w, whatcha think?
. People seem to claim similar power numbers to a T61 Took a look over at the hondatec forums and HX35's tend to start spooling in the 4k range on 1.6L B16 blocks...I don't know enough to really start making assumptions but this could be a pretty cheap turbo that'll start making boost in the lower RPMs on the M103, perhaps 2600-3000?I sourced a map for you for the HX35w, whatcha think?
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From: seattle
1990 300ce supercharged and intercooled
I am sorry I thought your were talking about a centrifugal supercharger.
Yes you can make turbo kits now that make great power accross the power band. You need to calculate your mass flow for a given power rpm range. The formulas are a good starting point. Check out maximum boost from Corky Bell. What you want to do is calculate your air flow rate with no boost at the different rpm you run in and then calculate the flow with different psi boost at the ratio that that turbo puts out. This is a good starting point and there is a lot of trial and error for any given engine combination.
Yes you can make turbo kits now that make great power accross the power band. You need to calculate your mass flow for a given power rpm range. The formulas are a good starting point. Check out maximum boost from Corky Bell. What you want to do is calculate your air flow rate with no boost at the different rpm you run in and then calculate the flow with different psi boost at the ratio that that turbo puts out. This is a good starting point and there is a lot of trial and error for any given engine combination.
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From: REHOBOTH BEACH DE
88-300CE TWIN TURBO, 99-C43, 05-G55K, 71-280SL, 94-E320 CAB, 08 CLK63 BLACK SERIES
Agree....you want torque to come in low and have a fairly flat band.
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I am sorry I thought your were talking about a centrifugal supercharger.
Yes you can make turbo kits now that make great power accross the power band. You need to calculate your mass flow for a given power rpm range. The formulas are a good starting point. Check out maximum boost from Corky Bell. What you want to do is calculate your air flow rate with no boost at the different rpm you run in and then calculate the flow with different psi boost at the ratio that that turbo puts out. This is a good starting point and there is a lot of trial and error for any given engine combination.
Yes you can make turbo kits now that make great power accross the power band. You need to calculate your mass flow for a given power rpm range. The formulas are a good starting point. Check out maximum boost from Corky Bell. What you want to do is calculate your air flow rate with no boost at the different rpm you run in and then calculate the flow with different psi boost at the ratio that that turbo puts out. This is a good starting point and there is a lot of trial and error for any given engine combination.
Glad I'm on the right track then, is there formulas to calculate the air flow rate of a particular engine using displacement and a few other variables or are these variables predetermined at the manufacturer? Basically what were looking for is air flow rates with a N/A M103 at various RPMs then use a given turbo map to find out what would be most most efficient for these given variables?
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From: seattle
1990 300ce supercharged and intercooled
Yes, what is important is that you pic a turbo for the boost level and flow rate that you are running. For example, at 6lbs boost there is a specific flow rate for that turbo through the efficiency chart. You want to pick a turbo that is going to be the most efficient in that range. Not just at your peak flow.
To do it right you would actually have to pick one and then measure flow on an engine dyno on your engine. Then you would learn the actual volumetric efficiency of the system under boost. This is why someone with the exact same everything except a turbo, running the same boost can make more or less power as you.
That said this is costly and time consuming. Also you may choose a turbo that spools really early for the most torque down low at a loss for power on the top end. I have a customer that has a audi rally car with the 5cyl aan engine. His car spools very low and make gobs of torque very low at high boost early. He has a restrictor on the turbo and there is no reason to have a turbo that makes power late in the rpm range because you simply can not flow any more air through the restrictor. Your intake will have similar effects. Long runners and small diameter are not good for high end power, they are good for low to midrange torque.
This is why I am making a new manifold because I have more low end torque than I can use.
To do it right you would actually have to pick one and then measure flow on an engine dyno on your engine. Then you would learn the actual volumetric efficiency of the system under boost. This is why someone with the exact same everything except a turbo, running the same boost can make more or less power as you.
That said this is costly and time consuming. Also you may choose a turbo that spools really early for the most torque down low at a loss for power on the top end. I have a customer that has a audi rally car with the 5cyl aan engine. His car spools very low and make gobs of torque very low at high boost early. He has a restrictor on the turbo and there is no reason to have a turbo that makes power late in the rpm range because you simply can not flow any more air through the restrictor. Your intake will have similar effects. Long runners and small diameter are not good for high end power, they are good for low to midrange torque.
This is why I am making a new manifold because I have more low end torque than I can use.
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Very informative whipplem104! I'll be diving into Maximum Boost soon to really touch up on these principles, meanwhile keep us posted on your custom intake. Are you planning to make a box type intake? 1/8" alum sheet? 
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From: seattle
1990 300ce supercharged and intercooled
Started working on the supercharger mounting. Will be ordering more stuff next week and the velocity stacks should be in after Thanksgiving.
