jayrasheed

Shoomakan, i'm more than sure that you don't need a walbro pump. the stock dupble pump setup u have on the car will cover you easy to abt 450Hp on the fly.

A fuel pressure regulator will do you zip on a CIS setup, this regulator you see on our cars is only there to stabalize the internal fuel regulator that is built into the CIS fuel distrib. and since you plan on going with extra injectors, and i advise you do so, i say ask RBYCC if he is using a fuel regulator for the extra injectors. As i see it in my head u can do with out it since the line that feeds the extra injectors comes from the already regulated fuel head, but that means your injectors will be running at 5BAR pressure (not the usual 3 BAR)

As for the stock injectors, they cannot be uprated for ones that flow more. almost all merc cis injectros flow the same, its the fuel head that limits total fuel flow. and you already have thae head that will cover you to abt 300 hp as it is with no tinkering abt with it. its pn?44 or 42 cant recall.

hope this helps

PS: stock mosselman setup on yur car made abt 325hp at 7.6 PSI flywheel HP that is.

i say at 10PSI, if u manage to keep knock at bay, you can make abt 360hp at the flywheel.

RBYCC

Jay

Turbotechnics has a fuel regulator as part of the additional injector assembly.
It's not rising rate, just a plain old regulator to protect the additional injectors.

I will be criticized but IMHO there is too much thinking and overkill in creating a turbo system be it single or twin.

The main prerequisite is starting with an engine that has had a compression and leak down test regardless of mileage.

As far as power output running an engineered twin turbo system consisting of Garrett T2's at 7 pounds boost, power can be made.

My last pulls on a Mustang load dyno gave 263RWP and 302 torque.
If I go back to the original base line pulls on the same dyno, the power output has just about doubled.

Published output ( dyno baseline ) 177HP ( 135HP ) 188 torque ( 145 torque )

263/135 = 1.94 x 177 = 343FWHP
302/145 = 2.08 x 188 = 391FWT

Max torque is developed at 4100RPM.

I don't believe as many do that the M103-12V is an engine that develops power at high RPM...proof in that the stock published power numbers indicate more torque the HP.

For street driving it's extremely difficult to keep a high rpm motor in it's power band with an automatic transmission.

The early M103-12V have an advantage with the 3.07 final gearing and the strong 722.3 transmission.
Ed A

Both Turbotechnics and Mosselman spent much time in engineering and development of their M103/M104 kits.
Similar to what Brabus does today with their upgrades.
Be wary of the claims and reliability of some home made setups.
Reality check..a 124 chassis can't handle 700-1000HP...
Something has to break eventually.
TT and Mosselman has installs that are over 20 years old and approaching
200K miles...

This is a pic of the casting with the regulator that holds the two additional injectors on the M103-12V.
It replaces the rubber boot between the air valve assembly and the throttle body.



The TurboTechnics intercooler mounts on the right side lower chassis rail immediately below the turbos.
It is encased by a fiberglass shroud that runs to the front of the car creating a cooling air plenum.

jayrasheed

ED, i for one have always agreed with you on this point. i still say that if one is looking for a trouble free install they shouldn't aim high on HP numbers from those cars. Back to your extra injector setup, if it has a regulator then its feed should come from the line feeding the fuel head. It makes more sence this way and yes it needs the fuel reg to protect the extra injectors.

RBYCC

The additional injectors do not feed from the discharge of the stock regulator.
The additional injector regulator stands alone and is piped from the main fuel line feed.

BAD300

Couldn't agree more RBYCC. This is the reason I am paying an experienced turbocharging workshop to do the whole build. This is the reason I sourced a low mileage engine (180psi comp on all cylinders). This is the reason I am only going for 350-400whp. Also. Anyone who's serious about 'reliable' HP increase with any success you use a stand alone fuel management system. "Tuning" is the most important aspect of turbocharging any performance engine to gain large HP. Also, I'm installing separate engine to turbo oil filter added. Had the 722.3 fully overhauled with shift kit & 2500rpm stall converter. New front flex plate, gearbox mount, engine mounts, radiator, IC, etc etc etc!

Btw. There are no Mossleman/Turbotechnics kits available here in Australia & they would be very pricey & laboursome to install anyway. Any after market twin system would also be an expensive project & not worth the hassle imo. Too expensive for the results. A 'modern' advanced single turbo will produce incredible performance results @ much less expense!

The extra expense of my build is by way of personal choice rather than a prerequisite. Employing worthwhile technology that has advanced over the last 20 odd years. There is always room for improvement

Technology should advance, not stagnate! After all. This is how we learn

Again. Couldn't agree more Jay

RBYCC

I had no desire to turbocharge my original 62K mile 1988 300CE until I was advised in late 2006 of many NOS TurboTechnics kits for sale.

The kits were offered for sale by a main UK Merc dealer "Hughes of Beaconsfield".
Hughes commisioned the kits in the late 80's early 90's as an exclusive to them by TurboTechnics.
Hughes installed the kits on new delivery Mercs with full warranty...basically a UK attempt to compete against AMG.

Incredibly the kits were offered for 1000 Sterling and included a full large bore stainless steel true dual exhaust system.
Delivered to my door in the USA for $2600.00 !!!

Fully aware of enrichment problems with the CIS-E, I too decided on a professional.
The install was done by Brian Murphy of Willow Automotive in Chicago.
Had the car trucked about a 1000 miles to his shop.
Brian was written up in the late 80's in AutoWeek as he was the USA installer for Mosselman.
The article quotes "***** Mosselman" as stating that "Brian makes the cars go faster then he can"

Worked on a daily basis with Brian to solve some of the problems with the kit.
All resolutions were conservative.
Took him over 100 man hours to do the install included many hours on his shop's Mustang dyno and tweaking on the road.

The dyno results were not impressive but the car was quick.
Upon delivery back to me, I concentrated on the other problems of the kit.
Redesigned the intake and boost piping and made filter changes.
This unleashed incredible power.
Installed a manual boost controller which synchronized the turbo opening.
Added a oil collection system as a safety measure, but zero blow by from the crankcase.
Will install a water/meth injection to operate around 9lbs boost along with a hotter coil and a trial running Beru S1K silver core spark plugs.

The turbos were set by TT for a bit less the 6lbs boost.
Increasing boost to 7lbs along with the MBC made more power.

Probably will settle in with 10lbs boost and around 300RWP and 350torque on a Mustang load dyno.

Will result in high 4 -low 5 0-60 and high 12 to low 13 quarter times with around 110 trap speed.
Not going to race it, but just to show the performance attained by being "old school" and conservative !!

Ed A.

P.S.

I haven't totaly forsaken new technology.
My fuel enrichment is via a computer generated Map in a stand alone controller.
Total cost $350.00 with a 10 minute install.
I can't control timing but I don't need to...
The Split Second stand alone additional injector control is incredibly precise and accurate...no chance of ever running lean under boost as settings were made on the dyno !!!

BAD300

Ed, I don't understand the 100hrs spent to fit/tweak the kit. Thought they were bolt ons basically? This is a point I'd like to make. I was only that you were referring to 'back yard' high HP builds & on my PROJECT THREAD that prompted my reply post in the first place. I tend to support others i their projects & offer positive criticism ONLY when it's absolutely necessary. Never to take their thread in a direction to suit myself I've said it before on another forum & I'll say it again on this forum. Ed. Your tried & true kit build (& the sorting the thing out etc) is an inspiration in it's own right.

But Ed, you have to acknowledge others intentions & respect their decisions with their projects. Sure. They may be perhaps less conservative (@ least in the HP department) & I guess little more daring attempts, @ getting results from these engines. But they are interesting @ the least

When I initially purchased my car in January of this year. Car was set up with highflowed T03 bolted to a forged M103 that was desined to take any abuse you could give it......er.....except an ignorant prevoius owner who drove car as an imbecile! Anyway. Car was on LPG fed via a too small mixer. The workshop the previous owner had build the car had performed the most pathetic turbo build you could imagine. Everything looked good to an unlearned eye. It was only when I looked closer & began pulling down engine & bolt ons that it became all too obvious the set up was nothing short of a disaster!

I was horrified. That's why I will never scoff @ what you have built & own. I also appreciate Ed that you are simply looking out for other so they don't make a big mistake.

Where my build differs however is why I am doing what I am doing?

My car was raped! Put to the side by a frustrated & dumbfounded previou owner who probably to this day hasn't a clue as to what al went wrong. Look @ the cleanness of engine bay & the fibreglassing under hood & in boot & mileage. 30k miles. This is what got me hooked with this car. It needed huge TLC to get it all right. Starting form scratch! No short cuts!

When I got it home I drained 11+ litres of chocolate milk from the block & tore head off myself to find even the block had succumb to corrosion & in one of fire ring location the block was actually eaten away & no longer fit to clamp a head gasket down. I was gutted!

I decided against swapping back to CIS & gong LPI injection due to 2 things. Ridiculous cost & no available kits for 300E's & current kits were pathetic anyway & produce less results.

So. This is why I am doing what I am doing. To finish what someone started essentially back 7 years ago. I may be a fool but I have been able to help countless folk already & will end up with a hot unique 300E running around to rival most anything on the street for less money than services cost some folk over the years on their run-of-the-mill luxury sports cars.

I missed out a few months back on purchasing a beautiful all-black 300E for my wife. Would have had too hot cars in the driveway. It was sold already

Ed, that two-tone beast of yours is one striking Benz I must admit I like how it sits on the road. I'd be very proud of owning it that's for sure!

Tim.

RBYCC

The "basics" bolt on, but there were problems with mismatched parts that had to be sorted out.
The original install was with what TT supplied for fuel enrichment.
It consisted of Hobbs switches and a piggy back controller to fire the two added injectors.
It didn't have any consistency in maintaining the required boost AFR.

I did a great deal of research and decided on the Split Second controller on the advice of an associate who races older Saab turbos with CIS-E in SCCA sedan events.

Worked great.

A lot of time was spent on the dyno and road testing to establish the best fuel map.

Had to make cat converter changes as it rattled two sets of 500SL cats on the dyno.
Ended up with Magnaflow spun metal cats and picked up 11HP...

The hours include suspension and exhaust work...
More then bolt on a "here's your car"...everything was tweaked to get the proper total performance.

My comments on any thread are an attempt to dissuade the less experience in thinking that they can achieve something on the cheap.
There must be a few threads started everyday by one who wants to boost a M103/M104...
Just don't like to see young kids who work hard spend money with no positive results.

I respect what anybody does...but I've yet to see a dyno chart posted by those that claim "mega hp"
Same for 1/4 mile time slips..
Street racing is one thing but it proves nothing about how much power a car has and if it can plant the power to the road.
Important to see the shape and area under the dyno graph lines to see if the power is consistent.
I might be hard headed but I find it difficult that a M103 with stock valve train can rev to 10K with valve float.

I'm not a kid..will turn 62 next month, but I know how hard it is to "work for your car' when young.
I care less about being popular if it means encouraging a young guy to think through what he's committing to !!!

Tim...

It will be no longer two tone once the all steel widebody build is complete...
All Signal Red with satin black trim.
Will have the period Recaro C's and the Atwie Silberpfeil AMG steering wheel.
My attempt at "time travel" !!!

The finished build will be what AMG offered in it's 1987 catalogue.

Shoomakan

Wow, lots of new info here! I wish I knew about these cars like you guys do. I know way more about BMW's, myself.

I'm glad to see the split second controller is working great, that's what I'm gonna use for tuning. Car has been garaged for the manual swap, installing the stock 5 speed that came on those cars. Anyone know what my gearing is gonna end up like? I read somewhere that auto 300's have 2.82 or 2.65 gearing. I think with the manual 3rd gear will end up hitting 200kph :P

Hey RBYCC, I noticed you have yourself a CLK63 AMG. I'm curious to know why you continue modding your W124? I mean, I'm not sure I'd mod my 325i if I had an M3 waiting under the house, y'know?

BAD300

Looking mean Ed! Mine was that low when I first brought it home but I need to raise it a little to keep the authorities away here. In the state I live in, Victoria, police are everywhere & it's only getting worse.

Looks as if you have widened the front fenders as well. You wouldn't want the track to be wider @ rear. Really nice going Ed!

P.S. I already knew your age lol. I'm 42 myself so younger yes but, not young in the sense of the word hehe.....but Ed, as Gracho Marx once stated...."a man is only as old as the woman he feels"

jayrasheed

Shoomakan, only the US mrk E300s had this long gearing. the cars we have in leb are Euro specs and have short gearing. an M103 2.6 has 3.27 diff, M103 3.0 has the 3.07 and yours the 300-24 has several options but since yours has the the 5 speed auto then you must have either 3.46 or the very short but sweet 3.69 ASD unit.

in any case since your not going for a dog leg manual but the ususal 5 speeder which has an overdrive fifth, you ratios will remain very close to what the car has on it now. in other words your fine. but if u do go with the dog leg i say you cant run a diff shorter than 3.27. btw all of those ratios can be had with ASD (LSD). you just have to find them thou.

Shoomakan

Jay, do you know what the normal 5 speed limits are? Will it be safe at 350bhp?

I'm glad to see the Split Second system is working well with some guys. Wish we had a dyno to tune here, we're gonna have to do this by ear.

RBYCC, I LOVE the way your car is shaping up. I'd slap on some 500E fenders on my car if I had the money. It looks delightfully evil. And 62? Wow. Glad to see the passion still rears its head. No pun intended, of course.

jayrasheed

I dont know for a fact how much power the manual can take, but if the auto can take it then we can presume the manual can live with it if you do not abuse it.

and we have 2 dynos in leb if you care to tune there.

Shoomakan

Really? I thought there was only the Bosch dyno. And that was a piece of crap. Ill maintained, no ventilation. When I dynoed my M30, it gave me 155whp :P

The car was pumping at least 200whp when I dynoed. So I sorta lost faith...

jayrasheed

K, The bosch one is one of the most accurate dyno's around. its maintained well enough. and it is set up well enough as well, not vented enough that might be tru. but i have never dynoed a car there without them placing a huge turbo like fan in front of the car.

i have personally dynoed 2 BMWs E30 with 335 engines in them and both made between 150RWHP and 160 RWHP. unless you were talking abt your car with boosted engine!!! then idunno.

second, who cares if the dyno reads well or not. all you need it for is to load the wheels so you can setup the map for proper AFR. and if the dyno reads low, so what, you keep tuning on it until you get a good reading after which any changes to the map either produce no gain or even make you lose power.

Shoomakan

I just double checked my dyno slip.. It was making 155kw at the wheels... I believe that's somewhere in the vicinity of 205whp, which sounds about right.

Stock M30 Euro (218bhp) + exhaust, intake, cam and tune. I stand corrected.

Oh, and my old M30 touring would nail other E30 M30's easily. Especially after the cam.

Guess I'll dyno there then, after I'm done installing everything. We'll go together!

RBYCC

I also have a 1971 280SL, 1994 E320 Cab, 1999 C43, and a 2005 G55K.

All different within their own right.

I purchased the 1988 300CE new and decided in 2007 that I wanted to replicate a very rare car, the AMG C124 widebody.
Probably under ten made world wide and none ever produced in North America.

It's a passion and hobby !!!

Ed A.

RBYCC

I think I remember when I was 42

I read somewhere: "I'm not the man I was yesterday, and tomorrow I will not be the man I am today"

Enjoy it while you can...

You have a very nice clean example that you are starting with and from what I hear you saying it will end up that way !!!

RBYCC

One thing to consider with a higher horsepower build and the choice of transmission.

By design the automatic cushions drive train shock.
The manual depends on how you release the clutch.
It will by it's nature put much greater stress on the drive train.

Only to look at the really high horsepower drag cars in the USA.
They tend to use an antiquated Chevy two speed PowerGlide automatic transmission.

Ed A.

P.S.

The USA 3.0L M103-12V in the coupe and sedan were delivered with a 3.07 rear gear.
The 2.6L sedan and the 3.0L S124 wagon came with the 3.27 rear gear.

RBYCC

Jay

Glad you're pointing that out !!!

DYNO IS NOTHING MORE THAN A TUNING TOOL

Important to first establish a baseline pull before any mods are made.
This gives empirical data on what your mods have produced.

Numbers alone are for the "bench racer" mentality.

I look at my numbers at 7lbs boost on a load dyno and they will never give me any "bragging rights"

What I do know is that I have doubled HP/Torque from the stock unmodified base line pull...

Look more at percent power gain at the rear wheels over base line...
That's all that counts..easy to then calculate dollar/HP gain !!!

In the USA you try to accomplish $100 or less per HP on a major build.

I'll repeat.."Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go ? "

Shoomakan

Very valid points. I agree.

I noticed all the cars, but the 63 is the most performing of the lot, that's why I was curious as to why you want ANOTHER high performance machine. FYI, the CLK63 is my FAVORITE Benz. FAVORITE. I cannot emphasize.

A relative of mine has a old 70's 280SL, also kept in pristine condition. He loves that car. (Y)

I'm gonna stiffen the car up a bit to help it launch, but I'm not the type to do burnouts or whatever very often, and if so, on very soft asphalt. Which over here is quite plentiful, actually.

the_widebody

non dogleg manual trans wont take much of a beating.

the question is this, is it the long input shaft or the short?

if it is the short, with the twin mass flywheel, i wouldnt give it full power, it will break very quickly, a member on the british site broke his with std 30 24v engine just taking it to the mot tester.

std five speed with long input shaft and single mass flywheel takes little tiny clutch, wich wont last long either...

Shoomakan

Is the 2.3 AMG tranny a direct bolt on? Might as well install it now, then.

Shoomakan

Update: I just called my mechanic to ask about the tranny, and he told me he's installing a E320 manual transmission, off a later model car. Are those any stronger or will I still have to be careful?

BAD300

Thanks Ed. Coming from you, it means alot

I remember the Aussie late 60's HK-HG Holden Monaro's with Chev 307; 350 engines using the powerglide auto transmission. 2 Speed & could do something like 85 mph in first These were infamous @ the drag races.

My dad had a Silver with Maroon vinyl button interior HK? 307 Kingswood wagon with the powerglide trans