ptoro01

Agreed, a rebuilt head with new valve springs and a proper machine job, a cam with all its lobes(haha) and head slightly cut to increase compression ratio makes good power. All the vacuum hoses replaced and the idle control valve hoses along with the boot under the fuel distributor gives you silky smooth idle and throttle response.

Most of my efforts have gone towards maintenance, the closer it gets to factory fresh, the nicer it is, no doubt.

But, would EFI add anything? From the point of view that it can be tuned with more precision.
I know the factory optimized everything, even the flap at the end of the air duct. So I assume the CIS is fairly fantastic, but can it be better?

Saijin_Naib

I'll second Ed's advice that a beat to **** m104 isn't worth it. I run about 4s slower to 60 than a Smart Car does flat-out. Make sure your engine is 100% pristine, as you're rebuilding take the time to make upgrades (crank/cam/displacement/Compression Ratio, etc), and go along that line.

Don't forget that the m103 and the 2jz share a very common heritage, and share many of the same characteristics. You've got a cast iron block to work with, make that thing spit out some HP

Oh, and for after-market EFI like MegaSquirt, of course you can make it better. But you'll likely have to spend days at least on the dyno getting good data for AFR and other parameters to make a proper map that matches your setup perfectly.

Lots of homework that needs to be done gents. Unfortunately, we've not the plug n play kits that would be common in the Honda/Ford/Toyota market.

hellah fresh

LSX! Thats the way to go.

RBYCC

Does EFI add anything....?
Good question !
There are a few on other forums who have gone to MS, some with success most still trying to program it.
Yet to see any before and after dyno pulls to indicate any power gains.

I'm too much of a pragmatist, if you can't document a mod over a baseline then it's all in your head or seat of the pants.
I need to see if my money is well spent.
It cost me over $10K to double the power of a 60K mile M103-12V that I owned since new.
Ran about $60/HP.
Motor was at or above factory spec so I had no problem boosting it.
But I ended up with a M103-12V C124 that will do a low 5 second 60..

CIS-E is what it is, a basic semi electronic period injection system.
Not much to do with it except keep it set to factory spec.

Regardless of engine management, you still need to start with a fresh or known engine.
Too many variables if your base line is not up to spec

Shoomakan

For the record, I meant slap a fresh M103 block in there before megasquirting.

ptoro01

So in short, EFI is a gateway mod. If you can program it on a stock engine, you're good to go turbo way.

Shoomakan

Exactly. It'll also help to tune it more aggressively of course. I'm sure it has a fantastic baseline tune that will work anywhere with most grades of fuel thrown at it. If you only give it Premium and have good plugs and like Ed said, it's running up to spec, tune it and it will yield a significant performance gain. If not in outright power, definitely in response. You NEED to know what you're doing, though...

I tuned my old M30 with a program/piggyback called SMT7. It made a big difference for me. Especially when I re-tuned after the cam.

semis1

Just for information purposes:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...K%3AMEWAX%3AIT

Tempted by a 2JZ for an upcoming project W124. We shall see.....

dsgn

There is a Russian that successfully coughed up 650hp wrt 700Nm of a 300E. The block was stock and I believe the piston was. On a curvilineal tracery, shearing strain ripped the rear axle apart.

Going the path of F.I., the only obstacle you'd have would be the exhaust manifold and pipes. You will have to custom make those.

Never bore an engine. There is a special manufacturing process done to a block after boring. You compromise its integrity without.

I will look for the videos.

Shoomakan

The Russian you speak of is Pumpish/Roman, I believe. Bald, built like a truck, and crazy? That's him.

Although he looks like someone who'd re-arrange your face, he's actually a really nice guy who has provided lots of info in our community. He's also the only person I know who experiments with those cars to a crazy degree.

AND he also makes M104/M103 turbo manifolds. Just last week I sent him an email asking how much, and for the M104 it's 1156$ at current exchange rates. So you can order a pre-existing one.

dsgn

You are right, that him Shookman.

The links are:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVfwR...eature=related

Joint failure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjjSr...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdFYc...el_video_title



Thinking about the whole setup, one would need extra clutch packs in the transmission to handle torques above 400N.m because that's much the 722.3xx would handle per design.

Shoomakan

You auto people have it so difficult... :P

the_widebody

romans power gans are very good, just bare in mind he uses e85 ethonol in place of the **** water petrol the rest of use use.

mega squirt is tunable without a dyno, especially if you are n/a, just download megatune or tuner studio, pm me for an ignition map, and away you go, drive it and it tunes itself.

issues are with the wiring up of the ecu, be sure you earth everything to the engine block and get the gap correct on the trigger wheel to sensor.

as for dyno sheets, why should anyone spend money to post a dyno graph for others to see, when they dont need to yet, and havent got money to waste.

take eds 5.0 second build, add 650cc injectors fed by two 044 bosh pumps, 15psi and meagsquirt altered ignition, an extra 200cc and a ported head, (i had to take 5mm out of the turbo technics cast exhaust manifolds to make them mate smooth to the exhaust port) and a 950 nm sachs twin paddle clutch...

what do you get? an output that snaps drive shafts and twists the subframe on its mountings...

my build is making much more power than the std chassis can handle, i am going through all the bases, and when ive finished, i'll take a pepsi challenge from anyone.

also, the the std 103 head was ported by amg when they did the 3.2 conversion, and it also had larger exaust valves fitted, so obviously it doesn't flow as much as it could in std from.

Shoomakan

Yeah, I've noticed that about those cars. The drivelines and chassis are relatively weak to what the engine can handle.

BMWs don't really have that problem. They're bulletproof, from the engine to the differential. I do speak from personal experience, and not just with my old E30/M30.

According to Ed, 350whp is about the limit of power your chassis can safely put to the ground. I think I agree.

Widebody, I might take you up on that ignition map.

What chassis mods can you perform, though? Even reinforcing your subframe doesn't strike me as enough, unless you brace the entire chassis. Or add a rollcage. You guys know better, do tell.

Quicksilver500

HP doesn't break stuff, torque does. BMW's do have that problem, the 3.5 I6 was good at breaking drive shaft joints, but most of their other engines rev to make power they don't make down low twisting torque. I was on a GRM challenge team that build a BMW and we broke all kinds of stuff with a wore out turbo'd eta motor, made like 220 RWHP. So I disagree, the E30 doesn't have near as nice a rear suspension as the w124 either.

The wagons and V8 w124 have the same sub-frame, which according to Brabus, Vaeth, AMG etc can handle a m120's torque output. That sub-frame uses all the same links and diff's. The auto trans really buffers the drive line to prevent impact loading, manual cars are much more likely to throw a drive shaft or blow a diff up. I really doubt you could make enough power to twist the subframe off the car or even tweak it unless you had wrinkle wall tires and did a clutch dump with a huge motor. I have bent the holy hell out of a w124 V8 sub frame before, wrinkled all kinds of stuff that shouldn't be wrinkled (sub-frame cross and tube member, wheel carrier, ALL links, and trashed a wheel) and it fell right off when I took the bolts out and a used one bolted right up.

Also the AMG E60 limited editions were quoted in the 4.5s 0-60 range.

Maybe someone has some different insight? I think 350 wrhp may be a sanity/personal safety limit, not a mechanical chassis limit.

-mike

Shoomakan

I never had a problem with the driveline because I swapped in the entire M30 driveline, I guess. It was silky smooth and quite powerful. It honestly felt like factory, which is what I like most about modifying a car.

I rarely launch from the ground to avoid the damages you mentioned, to be honest. It's always at a slight roll.

+1 on E30 rear suspension, especially the wagon I had.

the_widebody

i dont buy into the 350 rwhp limit.

my issues are due to the JOINTS BETWEEN THE SUBFRAME AND THE BODY. and maybe worn bushes in the five link connecting arms, all of wich are being replaced with ploy bushes as we speak.

a post over on benz world, where this is also being discussed, has identified that the v8 and sport line chassis, have different mounts to the ce 300, and are much stiffer.

i have never questioned the actual subframe, and have seen attempts at bracing it on 190.rev, which i think are laughable.

i have designed a copy of the 500e lower brace that i am going to fit between the front wishbones, just in front of the gearbox bell housing. and it looks like i will keep the details to myself, as ive had enough of these long diatribes every time i post something up.

i dont think strut braces are of any use to the 124 chassis either, due to the configuration of the suspension, and that point has put one members nose out of joint, and i am sick of pandering to his ego, then seeing him side with others when they attack my ideas, and tellingly, his build has no where near the 350 RWHP he has decided is a limit for the 124.

he tends to curry his answers to suit his point at the time, ie black series has race prepared COIL OVER suspension, so all the force is located at the same point on the chassis, and uses strut braces.

he then says due to this, he 'knows' that strut braces will improve a 124.

the 124 chassis does not have coil overs, and the suspension forces are minimal at the front on the damper tops, and almost non existent at the rear.

those who dare to suggest they are converting to coil overs are 'fools trying to reinvent the wheel', as are those who use standalone.

however, putting porche arches on a coupe is ' the same as the original wide body conversion' which it plainly is not, although the car will look amazing when finished, just as alberts yellow one does, and the blue one of babushka, or whatever his on-line name is.

he is against anything that doesn't involve the standard cis and extra injectors, with a split second controller, and slags every one who wants to go further to improve their 124s'.

he says they should not do it, because the 124 is old technology, and then uses mercs latest new technology from the black series to justify his ideas in improving his car.

RBYCC

Mike

I quoted the 350RWP based on using results from a Mustang load dyno.
As you know a load dyno reads 14%-18% lower then an inertia dyno.
Load dyno gives more real world results.

Using emprical data collected from base line pulls, my M103-12V indicated 30% lower then the published power figures on a load dyno.
This would indicate a 30% drive train loss on a load dyno or about 15% on an inertia unit.

350 x 1.3 = 455 HP at the crank.

Currently at .5 bar boost my last dyno run was 262RWP and 302 Torque.
Base line pre TT install was 135RWP and 145 Torque.

My crank numbers are approximately 340HP and 393 Torque.

So why do I place a conservative limit on the 124 chassis?
Because the newest build is about fifteen years old with the first builds about twenty five years old.

I'm not worried about my chassis handling more then 350RWP as I owned the C124 from new, intimately know the maintenance over the years and currently have a 66K mile vehicle that is as new.

Hence your comments about the E60 and the Vath and Brabus builds which did have a bit of strengthening but all done on new vehicles.

My caveat is to the individual that intends to build power into a vehicle that at the minimum has 100K plus miles.
No knowledge of true chassis condition, rust or metal fatigue.
It requires a great deal of money to make power and it is imperative to start with a mechanically sound body shell and subframes.
From the metal to the rubber all must be as new.

I'm also a believer in establishing base lines or your just making mod claims with the "seat of the pants dyno" that most bench racers use.
Also track time be it in 1/4 for power comparisons or road course to check chassis setup.

If you can't post backup then any mod is relative...what is fast to one who has never engaged in sanctioned competitive motorsports may be deemed slow by one who is used to competition machines !!!

Ed A.

RBYCC

Nick use my name..
I'll stand behind all I state.
Remember you're the one that fabricated solid engine and trans mounts that caused you to crash due to stress you put on your subframes..
Brilliant !!

My widebody build is patterned after the only AMG kit that exists...
It will be a replica or tribute build and in the end have more value then your original widebody.

Why?

Because you had the only RHD C124 WB in existence...
And instead of restoring it so it would have true value to a collector or enthusiast, you modified much like one would do a Honda...
Sad when one does not appreciate and preserve automotive history.

Nick we live in much different worlds..
No need to pander, you do it your way, I do it my way...
What successful builds that had value have you created?
Any competitive motor sports experience..
Even owning a vehicle that is a 97+ point Concours car?
Empirical data to back up your claims..

If not, no more then lip service which is what most bench racers are quite proifcient in...
Nick I'll spot your incredible build with your innovative suspension designs that keep on breaking a 100HP and still run by you on a road course or a drag strip..
Power means naught if you can't put it to the ground and even less if you can't drive..
I've earned my competition creds many, many years ago..reaction times not as good as they were forty years ago, but still will be quicker then you

Answer if your ego drives you, but no further response from me...
Not worth it...
I have nothing to prove but until you post some numbers you do..
Keep on pushing the envelope with no true understanding and the result is side swiping your mates car !!!

Cheers and congrats !!!

Ed A.

P.S.

Strut tower bars are new on a Merc, but the concept goes back to the uni body design from the sixties.
If you bothered to do a bit of research you may grasp the reality that the upper strut/shock mounts are sheet metal which have inherent flex under load.
You are stiffening all on the bottom end and increasing the flex created by moment arm of the strut/shock..
There goes your contact patch undert heavy cornering...
It's basic physics !!!

P.P.S

The BS does not have a coil spring suspension, it has coil overs..
Wow!!!! you claim the 124 does not have a coil spring suspension...
So are you running a void between your spring perches...
Nick you're an aggressive young man who is trying to prove something, but don't look like foolish in doing so !!!

DW124

Bloody hell Ed,I`d invite you for a drink if you were local

the_widebody

oops, wrote 'coil spring' instead of 'coil over' three times, easy mistake when typing at work wen should be working! edited now. although it was obvious what i ment

i dare say the uni body cars you use to illustrate your point were exactly the same as the uk mk1 and mk2 escorts that i grew up modifying, which had McPherson struts, which, like coil overs, distribute all the stress to the strut top, and often had strut braces fitted, unlike the 124, wich rests most of the front weight through the coil spring mounts and as near as makes no difference, all the rear weight through the subframe...

from the post above; 'My crank numbers are approximately 340HP and 393 Torque', so no where near your mistical 350 rwhp limit, as i stated, so how am i being agressive? because i dare to doubt your views?

now then dash, you should deside where you are at, seems like you aint sure.

Shoomakan

As much respect as I have for the both of you (and I really do), this isn't a pissing contest. Ed, no one is doubting you have a wealth of knowledge and experience in your hands. Widebody, it seems you did things differently back in the day but also have lots of experience with cars as well.

This IS a forum. We ALL come here to learn, whether you've been working on cars for 40 years or just screwed in your first spark plug last night. You don't only log in to give us advice and opinions, you also learn something. Which is what forums are about.

I LOVE my car. I'm sure you guys all do too. I'm here to learn how to give it a little more oomph without breaking it, and you guys are some of the more experienced to tell us how to do so.

I was wondering what opinions people have on MegaSquirt here, and whether anyone has successfully tuned one on our CIS M104's.

Ed, I'd also like to know how you're tuning your car.

Widebody, are you using the extra injector and split second box approach? How's that working for you?

DW124

now then dash, you should deside where you are at, seems like you aint sure.[/QUOTE]

What do you mean Nick?

the_widebody

i would prefer it if you didnt thank me for useful information on other sites, and post up saying 'keep us informed', and state you would be doing similar mods, after i report back my results, then post that insidious post above.

DW124

Blody hell Nick,you to.The whole point of the drink is to cheer people up