Mr.Gearhead

Hi folks,

I was looking at stuff for my 1970 Corvette and I found this article...

http://chevyhiperformance.com/techar...48_0502_turbo/

Anyone ever think about trying this on our E320? I looked up turbos and found this...

http://www.turboneticsinc.com/images...bie_G35_lg.jpg

NICE TURBOS... hahah... seriously... a single turbo pushing low boost... 3-5psi... about $700.

With some pipe work, oil lines and water cooler lines... this may work! I have been unable to find cross reference for bigger injectors. What size are our stock injectors? 19lbs???

I am thinking with this mild boost... the engine will handle it... I wonder about remapping computer? hmmm...

My 2002 E320SE is out of warranty this May. It only has 28K and will be paid off in May as well.... SO I WAS THINKING... what do you guys think?

ArcticBenz

I have seen those rear mounted turbos before, they have been out for some time believe it or not. However to be honest I have never ever met anyone with such an application installed, be it at the track or online. Theoritacally the numbers make sense and support such an application and its horsepower gains. However in my professional racing opinion such an application should only be utilized if engine compartment space is an issue. Daily driving in a car with such an application will have obvious issues. Puddles, potholes and the elements. Backing up and hitting the turbo any of the associated hardware against a curb, the car bottoming out, water constantly splashing against a hot exhaust housing as well as a hot 02 housing will cause those two items to be prone to cracking. Just to many forseable issues to keep listing.

On the other hand my 3.2 liter inline 6 has been puched out to 3.6, so with more durable rods and pistons and a few more beefed up engine components, mild boost will be fine. So once my car gets fully up to speed where I need it to be to begin, I will be experimenting with a single turbo setup much like the Supra and the Skyline, which both utilize small displacement inline 6's.

My 2cents and a glimpse into my long term goal as to why I aquired my E-class to begin with.

Jose

Mr.Gearhead

That was my main concern as well... water from underneath. The STS turbo site states this is not an issue. Just as you stated... I don't know anyone who runs this setup either.

I was thinking twin turbo for my 3.2 V6 may be too much... That is why I thought this single setup would be good. The STS setup seems like a good single setup and an intercooler is not needed due to the temp dropping to 115 by the time it reaches the air intake. Also, this setup would allow the stock exhaust to remain in place. Headers aren't "necessary" with a turbo so this saves time and money. The air filter is capable of being relocated up out of the way as well. I estimated this setup if I put it together myself to run about $1500 total parts cost with some pipe labor. Numbers are ball park right now... keep in mind. Depends on what plumbing I would use back to the intake....

How much HP/TQ gain from a 5 psi turbo? 100/75... maybe? At first glance, this seems very do-able and inexpensive...

040mercedes

I'm all about boosting a benz, but the rear mounted turbo is by far the dumbest idea ever. The second post pretty much sums up why. If you want some sort of forced induction, I would say try a supercharger first. I like turbos more than superchargers but in the case of your application, I think that it would be a better idea. Plus I think there are a few company's out there that offer them (kleeman). A newer E class is just not the right car to be experimenting with a turbo. Especially if you rely on it as daily transportion. A stock mercedes engine is probably up for the task of about 7-10 psi on something the size of a Garret t3 super 60. Or a precision SC44. Another thing to consider is your manifold. You will have to have one custom made since there is no company out there that sells anything of the sort, other than Mosselmann (unless you feel like paying 10 grand for the kit). Now for the biggest problem, engine management. You can't just bolt up a turbo and expect results. It takes lots and lots of tuning. And that gets pricey. You would have to have some sort of piggy back ECU, stand alone ECU, or if you're ballsy, take out your ECU and socket an EProm with a program already loaded in. Chances are, your Mercedes will not respond well to any of these methods and you may end up doing more damage than good. Then you have to think about heat. Something that comes with all turbo cars. You'll have to modify your front bumber to fit an intercooler, and hope that your car won't be prone to thermal issues, such as overheating. That usually isn't a problem till you start cranking up boost though. The parts alone with this kind of thing will probably run you anywhere from $2,000-$4,000 depending upon where you get the parts.

All in all, a turbo v6 Benz is definately possible. Is it worth the gobs of Money and possible reliability issues? That's entirely up to you. My best suggestion and personal opinion is to leave your car alone. If you want to experiment with a turbo, buy a DSM or Honda. They're cheap, easily available and have a vast aftermarket, or any car that came with a turbo from the factory. If you don't like any of those cars and you want to stick with Mercedes, I'd say buy a cheap 190e to experiment with or a c220. These have actually been turbocharged with some success. Plus they would be a lot cheaper to experiment with than a w210. Try to stay pre OBD or OBD1. It's easier for engine management.

P.S 5 psi, 75-100hp? NO. 5 psi, depending upon the size of the turbo just won't produce those kinds of numbers. You're probably looking at something more like 20-30 hp gain. Not really worth it. 7-10 psi should get you close to 75 hp gain at the wheels. More closer to 10 psi. Anything after that, and you better be a gambling man.

Richard Galing

Here's my 2 cents since I've had some seat time with the STS TT kits, it's a proven product for the application the company offers. Search the Corvette, LS1 Tech, GTO and F body forums and you'll find plenty of positive feedback. Quite frankly, I was skeptical myself before inspecting the product and finally was convince it was a product worth taking a test run. Two of my friends have the STS TT kits on their C5 & C5 Z06 and I'm tempted to drop my C6 Procharger for the STS TT!

My buddy's C5 Z06 drives great and very well mannered under normal driving conditions, but when you give it a little throttle...watch out! With the boost controller off he runs 5.5 psi, at Lo boost mode - 7.5psi, another push of the button Hi boost mode - 12.5 psi @ 740.7 rwhp. If you are looking for that violent, throw you back in the seat as soon as you hit it feeling, then this setup is not for you. It dishes out the power in a controlled, increasing fashion.

Only issues I've heard is with the crankcase boost and cracking the stock air bridge when running more than 6 psi. The general solution is to use an aluminum unit.

My buddy in NY runs a 9.3 @ 149.18 pushing 13psi on pump gas, now that's knocking on the door of 150mph traps and 8-second...not too shabby.

Mr. Gearhead - Rick S. or Ben at STS could provide you with more useful insight on their product, my personal installer for the STS is Rick H. at Synergy Motorsport, he does alot of custom fabrication work and might be able to muster a kit for your 70 Vette.

Prior to my supercharger install on my E430, I looked into the turbo scene. Turbonetics is local and I've purchased parts from them and the marketing manager is a friend, with a good fabricator there are possibilities, but as stated above you run into a wall when it comes to proper tuning the ME Control unit.

Mr.Gearhead

The only issue I can see is the ECU tuning. I am living in Atanta now and the local Benz dealer is also a Kleeman dealer... so I would need to get over there to speak with some folks.

I respectfully disagree about the STS being a bad idea. I am not knew to turbo charging just the rear mount STS. I think the filter placement is key to keeping it clean... but I know it's going to need more frequent cleaning. I am not one to put something out to pasture unless I have first hand knowledge of the product or service.

I was curious how a turbo putting out 5psi will only net 20hp? Also, for the STS setup intercooler isn't necessary. The piping back to intake acts like an intercooler, although I will agree a front mount will provide better cooling, and the exhaust temps at the rear pipes will be lower than the typical manifold setup. I am not saying this setup is fool proof... but I do think it can be done to the V6.

I suppose the only way to know is to do it. I am going to call STS on Monday and see what is what. I know some folks on this forum went down this path to improve the V6 performance and I think they have done a great job so far. I appreciate all the comments and suggestions.

040mercedes

That's fine that you disagree about the STS system. Numbers, in fact don't lie. You're right though, an intercooler won't be needed with the STS setup. Nor would you really worry about overheating. I was speaking in terms of a traditional turbo setup. That is also a great location for a turbo as far as cooling goes. That's probably were the numbers come from. However, I'm still not convinced. Everyday driving in my opinion would destroy that thing. I don't care what anyone says, or the website for that matter, splashing cold water onto a glowing red turbo can do nothing but damage. What happens if you happen to run over small object on the highway? I'm still convinced that everyday driving would destroy that thing. I believe those should be used in more of a controlled enviornment, which most of them probably are. This is just my opinion though. Like I said, it's your car, not mine. Also, I'm still positive that 5 psi won't net you very much HP in terms of at the wheels nor does 5 psi really seem worth all the trouble, or may give more to my amazement and shock, though it depends solely upon the scenario. It depends on the size of the turbo, the size of the engine your compression ratio and how it's tuned. Since you indicated that you are familar with turbos, I'm probably just preaching to the choir. I've seen way to many disappointed faces at the dyno with just 7-10 psi, let alone an extemely modest 5 psi. Once again just my Opinion. Like I said before I'm all about trying boost a Benz, I've been looking into it deeply myself, so keep us all in the loop with any info you come across and let's see some pics if you decide to do anything.

Mr.Gearhead

04- great discussion and extremely valid points. I too am still wondering how the turbo casting does not crack under these conditions... I will get more information and let everyone know. But if it does work out... I still need to get the ECU figured out if it is that much of a HP ****. I know some cars out there... (SAAB) can that a heathy boost increase with zero remapping. ... but not sure of MB...

040mercedes

Yeah, the ECU is most likely going to be the biggest hurdle. Everything after that seems like a walk in the park. There was a guy that boosted a c220 on club202. I think he has a website. It's like turbobenz.com, or its something like that. If my memory serves me correct, he used a piggyback ecu. That really seems like the only logical choice, since there isn't a stand alone system, or is there anyone brave enough to crack open a Benz ECU to socket an Eprom. Let us know what you find.

Mr.Gearhead

Ok.. I just got a call from Brandon at STS Turbo. The turbo is an older non ball bearing type Garrett. They don't use the ball turbos b/c there is not as much heat in the back as in the engine compartment. He stated water on splashing on the turbo does not have any negative affects. Garrett claims these turbos will operate properly all the way down to -20 degree weather. Also, the turbo is pushing 5-6 psi w/o booster controller. The unit is feed oil from an adapter that fits on where the oil filter attaches. Just attach the adapter, then screw on the filter. The adapter has a fitting that the line connects to and provides oil back to the turbo. It also has an extern oil pump to reduce dry start up on the turbo.

At this time, STS does not have a specific application for the E320, but they are working on BMWs .... Brandon stated they are starting to work with Super Chips to help on the ECU side. He did state STS has a universal kit that comes with everything but the plumbing as each cars fitment will be different. He thinks the E320 can handle the boost but agreed tuning may be tough. They had some initial issues when tuning the 300C and Chargers.

The kit we also spoke about was for my Dad's 01 Vette. For $7900, twin turbos pushing 6 psi will yeild close to 50% Hp gain... 517HP.

If I could find more information about tuning the ECU... Hell... I could just grap a Garrett my self and pipe it. Wish it was that easy...

I will continue to look for the tuning side as the turbo side seems simple enough. Anyone... bueller... bueller... MB ECU tuning....he hee

Mr.Gearhead

MORE news for folks... I just spoke with Mike at Atlanta Classic Cars and he is an authorzied Kleeman dealer. I inquired about the whole kompressor package w/intercooler and ECU. For about... $14K the E320 V6 would get 350 HP and 345 torque...

On the plus side... this shop (which is 8 miles from my house) can play with the ECU... wahoo... I may be on to something here.

So, is $14K worth 350Hp considering an 02 E55 is doing the same thing... well I don't know. Like 04 mentioned... It can be done.. but is it worth it...hmmmm How much is a LOW LOW LOW mileage 02 E55? How much is a 02 E320 with 28K showing in mint condition...? Is the difference more than $14K? I know the E55 is a whole lot more car...

Richard Galing

Do a search, forum member (Hank) has the Kleemann kompressor kit on his E320, only issue he experienced was a defective water pump that Kleemann now has fixed with their V6 kits. Also, lookout for a Kleemann kit being installed on a W209 CLK320, watchout for his upcoming thread.

Good luck on your HP venture!

Mr.Gearhead

Hey Guys-
I stopped by Atlanta Classic Cars today. It was great. They had Kleeman stuff all over the walls.... headers, throttle bodies, wheels... etc... RennTech stuff as well. TONS of rims... I felt like I hit the jackpot. Speaking of jackpot, that is what you needed to buy some of the wheels... $2200 each for three piece wheels... OUCH.

I spoke with Nash and Michael who were very helpful. I didn't know Kleeman had so many options for the V6. This shop does everything in house... even the ECU.
My options are
221 HP-- Stock-- No charge.. hee hee
231 HP--ECU upgrade- $1000
255 HP-- ECU with underdrive pullies and Air Filter- $1800
280 HP -- Supercharger- $6500
320 HP--Supercharger w/intercooler- $9500
350HP--Supercharger w/intercooler and ECU- $10500
367+HP-- Supercharger/Intercooler/ECU/Cams/Exhaust-$16500

(oops.. all these prices are PLUS labor... 367Hp was $2600 extra for labor)

Notice anything here? Yep... the ECU upgrade is NOT necessary for the Supercharger install. I was told the MB ECU has enough sensors feeding information that will automatically adjust fuel and mapping accordingly. It was stated there was a limit to the ECU adjusting, but they have never had any issue at 370+ HP.

Also, I asked why the ECU upgrade was so expensive to "re code". The E320's ECU has an AMD chip (prom) that holds the car's settings. The shop actually removes the prom off the ECU and then sends the current setup to Kleeman in Denmark via email. Kleeman then sends a new upgraded version back based on physical upgrades to the vehicle via email again. A new chip is installed to the ECU with the new settings. The old setting are saved for future reference if necessary. I did not know all this happened... I just thought they hooked up to the ECU and programmed new settings.

So is looks the ECU issue has been addressed by folks that actually work on this stuff everyday and are a Kleeman authorized staff... which makes me happy! Now... where am I going to buy a T76 Garrett to boost this Sauerkraut?.... hmmmmm

040mercedes

So basically, you don't need to tamper with the ecu? Wow, that's a first, very impressive too. Well, to answer the question as to where to find the turbo, go to precisionturbo.net I think you'll find what you're looking for there. Well I guess the hard part (tuning the ecu) is solved. Now for the next obstacle. Finding a manifold.

Ben'z

:p

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Super...QQcmdZViewItem

:p

Mr.Gearhead

HAHAHAHHA....
DAMN... I need one of those... hey I can get two and call it TWIN Electric Turbo... TET induction... now if it was a woman... HHAHAHAHA

TruE320Ridah14

I have been reading this tread and nobody has mentioned if the tranny will be up to the abuse of more power, so I am wondering if it will indeed be up to par.

Ben'z

What I was told is our tranny can handle that power, unless we do E55 motor swap.

040mercedes

Off subject: Damn it!!! I'm pissed!!! I just drove 40 miles up to school. I go to the library and hook up my laptop and check my emails. So what do I find? My class tonight has been cancelled!! I drove up here for nothing! Now I have to drive 40 miles back home! I had a class this morning but I decided to skip it on account of me being way too tired because I was at the hospital last night. Sorry, but you guys are the first ones in earshot to hear me *****! (Me after I find this out)>

On subject: I don't think the tranny will be too much of an issue. With a gain of about 50-120 hp at the wheels, I don't think the tranny will be too angry with us. I'm really convicned the rest is easy. I had a place to get a manifold, mrp-engineering.com but their website is not there anymore. They were going to make me a cast iron manifold for an inline 6 for $500. That's not too bad, considering a turbo benz (excluding the cl and sl65) are rare.

Mr.Gearhead

40 miles... now that is dedication. I couldn't drag myself to go 10 miles... hahah. While your are up there... should look for some TET to use in your car...


As far as the trans... I could see it only being a problem if we mounted 10" slicks and dump 350 plus torque at once... even then... the rear would be mroe suspect.

Considering the nature of a turbo, the spool will be smooth and all the power won't necessarily be at take off. Even at highway speeds, I don't think the trans will have issues.

04- As you mentioned, an intake. Would our current set up require to be reworked? I was thinking to just plumb up to the current intake. Since it is being force feed... I think it would be okay... ? Pipe work is real CHEAP. These kits on "ebay" for $350 is crap. WAAAAAY TOOO HIGH.

taha121

I'm in the market to buy a new car unless I can fix the entirety of my e320. I've done lots of little suspension and brake bits here and there and my little beater has got a good 209,000 miles on it. The engine and transmission are doing great as far as I've felt. (The thing needs new engine mounts and cats, but otherwise it's a beast).

Anyway, since I have to go in and replace the cats if I want to get the car passed emissions, I was considering a full exhaust rework to include better airflow/magnaflow products. Seeing this discussion kind of gave me the idea of "Why not try a remote mount turbo while I'm at it". If the stock ECU can calibrate itself then I got nothing to worry about besides a turbo and some pipping. Hopefully, the turbo and pipes are supposed to be resistant to the weather for the most part too so that's even better.

Main point of thought is, I have an engine that's done 209,000 miles, but is still going strong. Do you think I'm pushing my luck with a turbo? I don't want to abandon the car because I know that I'm the last real owner the thing is ever going to see. You think it's possible that the phenominal little v6 can push out up to 320+ hp (pun totally intended)?