v4tuna

My first post yesterday gave me some great answers Thanks Sosh your response as a former BMW guy was inspirational.. Last night i was driving my 91 525 thinking wow how can it get any better ....obviously it can.

So I have found a 97 e320 so I presume this has the straight six.

I am old school on engines and usually prefer stright six configuration cause they are usually naturally balanced and they have been making them a long time. But the newer v6 is apparantly a marvel of technology and is lighter and better on fuel....but with technology comes a price...more $ to maintain.

Straight six simpler.. one exhaust ......so less $

Thoughts

ohlord

I prefer the v6 just as easy to work on just takes a bit longer,parts are cheap if you learn where to get them.Power,torque and 100 pounds lighter add the equivalent of 10 h.p. to the already higher outputs and broader torque curve.So I leave it to you and the others who will debate the l6 side of the issue
http://www.whnet.com/4x4/new_V6.html
tech info and info on the development
have fun with which ever you decide,but remember you really can balance a quarter on the dash of the v6 that is how smooth a properly maintained one runs

lkchris

Newer is always better.

In addition, the M104 (I6) is noted for headgasket and wiring harness problems.

The V6 (M112) is mechanically pretty sound, although MAF and crankshaft position sensors are a bit chintzy.

Mercedes does a "facelift" on its cars during their lifetimes, and the 2000-on W210s are significantly improved.

124-Fan

Well, I prefer the L6 to the V6. Like v4tuna said, they are better balanced and personally I think the power and torque is better, if you compare equally large engines. And I disagree, that the V6 is better on fuel. My opinion is the opposite..

And the M104 L6 engine is a marvellous engine in my opninion. Also the M103 engine, even though the L6´s are prone to headgasket failure as a result of how long the head is. That´s about the only bad thing you can say about them. There is also no special difference on working on L6´s or V6´s, I think.

Also, you can´t blame the L6 form of engine for bad wiring harnesses.. It just so happens that these harnesses were used on these types of engines, but the engine itself remains just as good. It´s like blaming the meteorologist for bad weather..

Cheers,

ohlord

the specs?torque and horsepower both up on the v6 and if you dyno one you would see that the power band is a mile wide on the v6 and it just keeps pulling
more h.p. more tq. at almost 2000 rpm lower in the power band coupled to A hundred pound lighter car,clearly gives the nod to the v6.
Taking nothing away from the l6 it was a good engine for it's time
now stick this intercooled rotex blown m104 into the mix and I might change my mind

http://share.shutterfly.com/action/s...=1196969038847


ohlord

124-Fan

Well., my ´92 300CE-24 M104 is neither intercooled nor rotex blown.. And it delivers 224 hp whereas my E320 V6 delivers the same hp. Being a larger engine.

And the M104 incorporates 4 valves pr. cylinder and a variable valve timing inlet cam, which the V6 engine does not. That in return delivers a wider range of torque. Whereas the V6 incorporates 3 valves pr. cyl and fixed valve timing.
Plus, I´ve monitored the mileage on all my cars and I must say, that the L6 formation perfoms better, with regard to mileage and power and torque as well. I must admit though, that the 300CE-24 car is a slightly lighter car than the E320 V6, but not significantly though.. hmm.

Cheers,

Yacht Master

The V6 is much cheaper to produce and fits newer body styles and was the beginning of Mercedes modular engine line.
I prefer the I6 only because it has room for a turbo under the hood and potential for big HP.

This is worth a look
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...hlight=pumpish

124-Fan

This is serious stuff.. Converting a good old M103 engine like that..

Cheers,

ohlord

specs tell the line 3 liter m104 1992 300CE
Base Number of Cylinders: 6 Base Engine Size: 3 liters
Base Engine Type: Inline 6 Horsepower: 217 hp
Max Horsepower: 6400 rpm Torque: 195 ft-lbs.
Max Torque: 4600 rpm Drive Type: RWD
Turning Circle: 36.1 ft.

1999 E320
(0-60 mph): 7.2 sec. Braking Distance (60-0 mph): 130 ft.
Road Holding Index: .81 g Base Number of Cylinders: 6
Base Engine Size: 3.2 liters Base Engine Type: V6
Horsepower: 221 hp Max Horsepower: 5500 rpm
Torque: 232 ft-lbs. Max Torque: 3000 rpm
Drive Type: RWD
please note max tq.37 ft lb. more at 1600 rpm less and 4 h.p. more at 900 rpm lower.and if you have dyno'd both you would see that the broad tq. curve of the 3.2 v6 is not a peaky band as the m104.

1992 300ce corrected mpg to 2007 fed standards 15 city 21 hway 17 combined.
1999 E320 18 city 25 hway 21 combined and most of us get even more
You down for the count ,yet
ohlord
V-6 rules

124-Fan

- Not really. Acccording to my books those engines both deliver 224 hp. And don´t forget, you are comparing a 3.2 liter engine to a 3.0 liter engine.

Also since I´ve repeatedly measured the mileage and driven quite a lot of both types of cars, I must say that facts count instead of officially given numbers. Furthermore, when driving at high speeds, you can simply feel how greater the acceleration is in the M104 engine. Even the standard M103 engine does better than both 280 and 320 V6 engines do...

- I won´t be convinced.. - The inline six is a better engine than the V6 !


Cheers,

Quadcammer

dude, the numbers don't lie.

closing your eyes, covering your ears, and screaming lalalalalalalala, doesn't change the fact that the v6 makes more torque and horsepower, and does so at a lower rpm.

Further, the difference between a 3.0 and a 3.2 is essentially inconsequential.

124-Fan

No, perhaps they don´t lie. But they don´t either always speak the entire truth.
Years of experience however speak the truth.

Cheers,

ohlord

40 years.
and you are wrong about the h.p. and having driven both and had 40 + years of experience with the make ,a 0-60 in 8.5 second 300CE is not going to be taking a 0-60 in 7.2 second E320 anytime unless the 320 fell asleep

hell my wagon would walk that thing

124-Fan

40 years.. - You are the man !

- I won´t argue this any further, my friend. Stay cool..

Cheers,

ohlord

they are both great engines
We just view the merits of each from a different angle.35 years ago my wife was the service writer for the big seattle mercedes dealer,so we got to see all and drive all,my times have changed! They sold bmw's in 77 and switched out a complete interior to a different color and style because they did not have the car with the things we wanted on it.
so old school engine new school engine the only thing that matters is to maintain them and enjoy the car
ohlord

tirona

well if you ask any mb mechanic, most of them will tell you they prefer the l6/m104 over v6/m112. mb kept the m104 on the s-class until 1999, also bmw still has the straight 6 engine. just because you have the v6 in your car, doesn't mean it's the best engine. of course it's more modern, but not neccessarily a better engine. m104 has been around for 15+ years and still running strong (except the headgasket issue after 130-150k miles, pay $800 to get it fixed and it's like brand new, still a pretty good deal. which even if not fixed doesn't affect performance at all.) m112 on the other hand has been around for less, and already has oil consumption and other issues. i think overall m104 is more bulletproof than m112.

v4tuna

What an excellent forum where a newbie BMW guy (me) thinking about trying a benz can get such a great discussion.

The specs on the six look brilliant and very appealing but something about the inline

So here is why I am old school on the straight six....

1 . It is cheaper to maintain . ( Please correct me if I'm wrong)

2. Straight sixes are naturally balanced....no extra junk to keep vibrations down.
3. When I read books about old pioneer racers like Sterling Moss and Fangio the cars that these guys drove where all straight sixes and so the "old school" side of me likes that

ohlord

raced in nostalgia http://www.sovren.org/
races I to love the old inline engines,and that includes the sweet little l4 in our old MGB,But times change mb phased them out and sold the rights to korea,the only time you see them on the track are at our vintage races or hot laps and track days.
Sure the old school,Juan Fangio raced a Maserati 4CLT supercharged 4 banger,but you see the inlines going to the wayside in racing starting with the
Cadillac powered Allard J2 and the small block corvette in the mid 50's till present.V block engines dominate in every motor sport.
compact frame,low profile,shorter impact force on the crankshaft,and I don't know where you get the oil problem?I don't miss a drop in 10k miles and all I ever see of the old m104 is sometime in it's life the timing cover or the head gasket is going to spring a leak and eventually lead to a big tear downor the elec harness is going to fry.
You imagine Carroll Shelby sticking a L-8 into an A.C. bristol and calling it a COBRA
feeding the fire
and no it does not make it better because I have one in my car,it makes it better because the E series became the most popular series in the makes history when they put the v engines into them
v-6 ,v-8, l-4, l-6, boxer 4 I got em all so they all must be the best engines

AsianML

I love my M112.

armanchosbenz

I love the sound my inline 6 makes at high revs...it sounds like a jet
turbine whereas the v6 makes a burrbly sound like most of the v6's

BMW still refuses to use v6's...and they are known for theyr'e
brilliant inlines

POS

When I asked this question of my MB-only mechanic, he said "Buy ze vee six - eet's bettah." Without using phonetics, the argument is that the V6 is more powerful, gets better mpg, is smoother, and doesn't have the leaky headgasket issues.

My wagon has the V6 - it hauls butt.

lkchris

There were also inline 4 versions of the inline 6, so "modular" wasn't anything new.

Quite an advance if an aluminum engine can be made more economically than an iron one.

E-Klasse

The inline 6 ist besser!

koskesh

V6 just doesn't sound right with Mercedes Benz. It's one of the sad effects of Chryslerization that we saw in Benz for a while.

If you know engines, an inline design is more ideal than a v. the only reason you would use a v design is to make it shorter, and it's much cheaper to design and manufacture. They didn't redesign and inline 6 because they wanted to cut down on manufacturing cost, etc. Why do you think Mercedes cars nowadays are way more affordable than the old days?
They have completely Americanized their new cars, which means optimized for cutting down manufacturing costs so they can make more money by offering a cheaper made product and that's nothing but reality. I remember when Mercedes cars used to be thought of as gold. they would never break down, rust, or be looked down at. They lasted ages. Now they are just another mass produced car like ford taurus. Disappointing. I like the old designs. they have even made the body look like stupid Chryslers, no lines and edges like they used to have, but a big bubble with no shape, again, perfect for low cost manufacturing, less unique and no style.

In my opinion the only reason the V-6 has some performance advantages (lighter, wider power band) is because it is a newer design. The 3.2 littre inline six i believe was first seen in 1994 E320. The inlines have served mercedes for ever and that's what gives mercedes it's reputation. The sound of an inline engine on a mercedes is unparallelled. Like a jet as someone said earlier.

The last car that still had some touch of real mercedes was the 1997 E320 inline 6 which has its own quality issues like rusting, etc, etc.

Sorry, i'm very biased and I'm old school when it comes to Benz, and I'm very upset that mercedes went down in quality in the past decade. A few days ago I saw mercedes listed under cars that were considered the worst deal on a car shopping site.

ohlord

"If you know engines"which obviously speaking of the m104 and the m112 and m113, you don't.The v-6 platform was on the boards at Daimler-Benz for years before the merger in 1998 with Chrysler.
Flat out hands down bone stock for bone stock a 1998 v-6 will have the 97 L-6 for lunch.Case over.
The awards speak for themselves.
It was not until the 211 model that you saw the quality drop off the map with the full implementation of Chrysler's cost control program .
This thread almost gets as much action as an "what oil do you like best" thread