OCG-Harper

I have a 2000 E320 with 29k miles. The vehicle was purchased new and garaged its whole life. The vehicle has had all but one service done at the dealership from which it was purchased. The issue I have here is this: the vehicle was taken to the dealer for a B service. When the dealer received the car everything was in working order. When I picked up the vehicle and drove away from the dealership I discovered that the front driver’s window would not close completely. I didn’t know what to think but decided to try the other windows. The driver side rear window also failed. I try to be a reasonable person, but I do not believe in coincidences. Window regulators do not last forever, but two at once, and on the same side of the vehicle right after a service? Can you say statistical anomaly. I took the car back to the dealership. I was assuming that they would deny any responsibility, but I hoped they would be standup guys and at least offer to take half the burden of cost. In fact they were “amazed” that I could even think it could have been anything for which they were responsible. I had already resolved to pay for whatever it took to get the car back, and deal with the issue as a lesson learned. Here is the lesson: don’t buy a premium car, don’t pay inflated service fees, and don’t expect any consideration for brand/dealership loyalty. This is just a warning for those of you who still think that Mercedes vehicles and service is what it was twenty years ago. It is just another car and you are just another schmuck with a bank account to be tapped for whatever it will bear. It might be better if you bought a few Fords or Dodges and got more than you expected rather than purchasing a premium brand and getting much less than expected. I have studied business and have read many times about businesses that eventually fail because they are not willing to provide the service their reputation was built on. Offering the customer a cup of coffee, washing their car after a service, offering loaner cars “gratis” (a huge fallacy) is gold plating on a turd. It is appearance without substance. The dealer is located in (Northern) San Diego California. Everything I have related is fact and without embellishment. I went to the trouble to write this so that others will have something to consider before making a purchase. Take it for what it is!

EdzBenz

How often do you use the windows that failed?

ohlord

to resync the windows. So they close fully and open properly?
Don't go jumpin off the cliff, yet.

The Archman

Once my right rear window failed during a very hot heatwave, while being baked in the sun on the right side for about 8 hours. . I postulated that the window was heated to the point that it somehow fused itselft to the window frame rubber moulding, pulling it out of the window frame mechanism. Maybe, just maybe, your car was heated on that side of the car to the point where both windows got stuck. Sometime when the window will not close it will blow the regulator. Pretty far fetched i know, but...... PS I have not had one single problem with my dealer, who does magnificent work. One time I took my car to an independent and I fought CEL lights (MAF, oxygen sensors) for a month after. I think their service, loaner, quick in and out, courtesy, and professionalism pays for the premium price. I make up the difference in loaner cars alone!

OCG-Harper

Edzbenz, the car is my mother’s and I don’t think she has ever opened either of the rear windows. I have opened the rear windows (maybe) two or three times in eleven years.
Ohlord, yes I did try that trick. I assumed they disconnected the battery for some reason and it created an issue. So I did what I always tell others, “read your manual”. I went through the resync and tried a few other things just to be sure. No joy. Nothing was going to help the back window, as it was a mechanical disconnect (could hear grinding). The front appeared to be binding and kicking in the “protect” mode. Here is what chaps my ***. The service guy assumed I was an idiot and could not think for myself. I know that this production has issues with rear regulators that tend to break on a regular basis. Now here is the logic of the situation: everything works ok, the dealer gets the car for a few hours, they service and wash the car, they hand it to me and all the sudden two windows on the same side now do not work? Sounds like someone probably used a power washer on the car and hit that side with sufficient force to create binding in the window channels. The front is stout so it does not break outright. The back is a weak design to begin with and gives out completely. Service guy isn’t about take responsibility, nor is his boss, so they charge the customer full boat and show that they didn’t cave to the stupid customer who they “think” wouldn’t know the difference between a left handed cresent wrench and his butt. If these guys had played it straight with me I would have been just as vocal with praise, but they didn’t and I’m not going to forget or forgive.

OCG-Harper

Archman, thanks for the input. I have seen that kind of thing happen, but not on anything modern. I was in the automotive (parts) business for seventeen years, and have been a gearhead all my life. I have a bachelors in Computer Engineering Technologies, and a Masters in Business Technology Management. I don’t like it when someone treats me as though I should not be allowed to feed myself. I gave these guys a chance to play it straight. They chose not to. I would have been happy to split the cost as I have no way of proving wrong doing on their part. I have for eleven years brought the car to the dealer for everything and paying the inflated price to ensure that the car is safe for my mother. Could I have replaced the battery myself rather than let them do it to the tune of (I think) about $400, sure but I didn’t because I didn’t want there to ever be a question of how the car has been maintained. I have had them replace/repair/service everything. In eleven years I have had service that was in truth only average, and had a number of times I knew darned well they were charging too much for simple fixes, but kept my mouth shut. No longer, the Emperor has no clothes and it is time talk about it. The service director even questioned whether the car had been purchased from them and made the statement “well it’s only been here for service four times” as he stared at his computer. This after I made it plain that it had been there for every A & B services and incidentals since original purchase from this dealer. What an ***. I know because I’m the one who has brought it in for service every time. If pressed I’m sure all the receipts can be produced. I’m so pissed at this BS, it makes me want to get people talking about their experience. I know I’m not the only one.

MBNUT1

You know it's possible that there was some sort of anomoly that resulted in the dual window failure but the theme of your post is right on and totally in alignment with my experience and thinking about today's Mercedes. I saw my E- Class as nothing more that an conduit for Mercedes to my bank account.

My problem is there aren't any other cars that I would prefer to drive.

01BlackE320

You know what? window regulators fail in these cars sometimes. They have a weak plastic part that tends to break. Your car is 11 years old and never using the power windows is probably more damaging then using them regularly. The 29k miles on the clock has no bearing here.

One (and only one) of my regulators failed and I bought a new one on eBay for $30 and fixed it myself. It was a PIA to do but not impossible. My mechanic would have probably charged me about $250. Its just about all I've had to fix in the past 6 years.

It doesnt matter if you bought a expensive luxury car or cheap economy car. A dealer will charge you to fix it, and charge considerably more then an indy rapair shop. If he was guilty of anything, it may have been actually trying to open your windows that were jammed closed due to lack of use. If you havent changed the tires or taken the wheels off in the past 11 years, be prepared for some lug bolts that wont come lose bolt heads shearing off.

OCG-Harper

01BlackE320, everything you said about the mechanical aspects of this issue are absolutely correct, and I understand these well. You are missing the point. This is a premium car and the service at the dealership is a premium. Some of this is on me and I know it. I assumed that the dealership would take the high road, or at least be reasonable. Don’t you find it suspect that (two) regulators would give out within moments of each other, and on the same side of the car? I’m not laying blame; I’m saying it is suspect, any reasonable person would. Yet the dealership decided to treat me as ignorant. I have seen this before and did not expect it from Mercedes. A good service department would have made the effort to figure out what caused the problem and if they could not absolutely disprove any culpability on their part, they would offer the customer a real solution. This called “good” customer service. I have to say that I just have received a call from MB-USA and they are going to review the situation. I will post the outcome (Good /Bad) here and elsewhere. I think these are good cars but I think that sometimes the dealers forget that loyalty goes both ways.

clkwork

Exactly what kind of service was the car in for? Were they working on the window system?


edit: ok, I reread your post and you state that it was the B service. How exactly do you purpose that they broke your window regulator while performing this service?

OCG-Harper

CLKWORK, benzworld lists a B service as the following:
B SERVICE (~ $379.95 + tax) :

- Inspect windshield wiper inserts and service windshield washer system (Replacement of wiper inserts additional*).
- Inspect and rotate tires, record tread depth, and correct tire pressure. (Wheel balance additional*).
-excludes AMG, Sports Models, SLK, and vehicles
with staggered wheels
- Engine oil change and oil filter replacement
-Includes Mobil 1 synthetic oil
- Lubrication service
- Includes hood hinges, lock cylinders, striker
plates, sun roof tracks and top off all fluids
- Cooling system inspection
- Includes antifreeze protection level, hoses and
clamps
- Brake inspection
- Includes check of pad thickness and condition of
discs, fluids and lines
- Inspect heating and ventilation dust filter, replace if needed. (Replacement additional*. Dust filter prices vary by model)
- Function check
- Includes warning lamps, headlights, exterior
lights, seat belts, windshield wiper and washer
- Inspect and lubricate throttle linkage
- Check and clean air filter
- Reset flexible service system counter
- Inspect front axle ball joints; check steering play and power steering clutch; and rear differential levels
- Inspect Poly V-Belt for condition
- Inspect starting and charging system and service battery
- Inspect climate control refrigerant


The dealership also gives the car a complimentary wash before returning it to the customer. Do I know that they did something to cause TWO window regulators to go bad at the same time on the same side of the cars? No absolutely not. Do I think there could any number of causes that could just be pure coincidence? It is possible, however very unlikely. Do I think that the front might have been rectified with something simple rather than a full replacement? Yes! Do I think that it was easier to blame the failures on pure bad luck and coincidence rather than share the burden of possible responsibility and consequence? Do I think it was more expedient to replace both regulators and motors? Would this all add up to greater revenue? Yes! Do I think that this was a juncture at which a number of possible responses could have been made? Do I feel that they made the wrong decision? Yes! Do I feel there is a question of ethics here? Yes! Am I pissed at the situation? Yes! Do I think that this is happening to others? Yes!

clkwork

My point is this:

1. They weren't working on or near the component that failed
2. You do not know what caused the failure
3. There's no proof that it was working prior to bring the car in for service
4. People try this scam all the time

Now if all of your oil leaked out and the motor seized after an oil change then yes they could have been at fault - AFTER you determine the root cause. Now a failed window controller because of an oil change... c'mon, that's not very likely.

The burden of proof is on you to determine the cause of failure and link it to the service, because what your advisor is telling you is that there is a 99% chance that it was not their fault based on the service that was done.

If everyone were honest then this would not be an issue and the dealer would probably comp the repair (or at least part of it), but you have to understand how many people try to pull one over on them. I would expect this same response from any dealership, whether it be Honda or Bugatti.

OCG-Harper

Okay I am fully chastised for my foolish behavior. How ridiculous of me to think that I should be given any consideration. The situation was obviously my fault and I was too stupid to understand that. I only hope the dealership will deign to allow my poor self to be in their presence once more….
Again, someone who does not get it. It was not and it is not about money. And Now I’m a SCAMMER. Well lets get this straight how many Automotive repair businesses have been accused of scamming customers? It happens on both sides. Doesn’t mean I should be held in that light!

OCG-Harper

An update: I have been contacted by Mercedes-usa customer service and the director of service at the dealership. They are doing the standard “disgruntled customer” two step with me. It is nice to see that they at least are listening. It tells me that Mercedes themselves may still understand their reputation is part of what draws people to buy their cars. They have decided to refund half of the cost of the repair. I’m not going to turn it down, but it does not change the situation. This refund was prompted by leverage from above nothing more. The horse is out of the barn! I have lost faith in this particular dealer. Remember folks you have options, even if causes you stress, sometimes you must make changes so you are not taken for granted. I will make this statement: I will not go to this dealership again for anything! Will I go back to a Mercedes service center for subsequent work? I haven’t decided yet but it is doubtful. Will I make it a point to make sure I tell this story to anyone who asks? Every dammed time. Time to move along. I will make sure I post any other contact or information that comes my way.

amdeutsch

No flame, but lets be fair.

You don't quote MBWorld. You don't quote your manual. You do quote a competing forum. You do post a dissatisfaction on MBWorld. All of your posts are in this thread you started.

Get the point?

hcetzneb

Somthing is always fishy about someone coming on here and trashing benz and a specific dealer on there first post... but ill play, So your saying just because the dealer serviced your car they owe you window regulators.. your car is 11-12 years old ???? regulators go bad in any vehical audi, benz,bmw... honda acura all have had issues with window regulator

10 years ago regulators were made mostly of metal not plastic.. Its a car its not magic
and the wty is 4yrs not 11yrs.... ive seen benz goodwill 10k jobs 1yr out of wty but your asking alittle to much i think

bigben320e

It's a mixed bag. I get the OP's point, but realistically the dealership does not have any responsibility for the window regulators. Take my situation:

I have a 98 E320 with a rear passenger regulator that is shot, that same window was broken back in 2001 by some thief. The dealer replaced the window and regulator, and now that it is out again, can I blame that dealer? No. The car is 13 years old, and I expect some parts to go.

Now, on the flip, I can see the point about the newer MB's being a "conduit" to bank accounts, especially that 99-04 cars which had some gut wrenching failures that have tarnished MB's image of quality and reliability and the rep still haunts them today. Not to say MB is terrible, but honestly they could do much better on QC and customer relations which appears to be improving currently. Some dealerships as of late are certainly not helping MB's image with the rip-offs and pricing games true enough. I get that POV from the OP as well.

MBFLO

regardless if your car has 200k miles or 20k miles .. its over 10 yrs old , out of warrenty andyet you expected the dealer to fix something that is a well known issues with these cars for the longest . thats only thing i see wrong with this post . If you E class was a 07-08 you would probably be out of luck without warrenty but on a 2000 you asking for a miracle . You should took it to a INDI shop for b service as im sure there are plenty in greater cali area . would love to see INDI's face if you brang it back with same story as dealers .
But its your car and your intitled to think whatever .. just dont get mad when others laugh it off and think this is ludacris way of thinking ..
Goodluck

MercFiveHundred

You are blaming a car wash for breaking your windows... You really need to calm down and understand that you have an old car. It's over 10 year old. When more things INEVITABLY start to break, will you post your rants again? If you think you are so knowledgeable and handy, then why didn't you just change your own oil.

I agree that the QC has gone down for MB, but seriously..I drive an 03 E500, so i would be glad if i had just the two window regulators go bad.

yeldogt

The question I have is what is the problem with the front window?

On hot days its not unusual for the mechanics to roll the windows down -- and I normally see the driver door window down on cars in the service bay - often both on the driver side.

Short of having an order to all workers to never touch the back windows of a w210 -- I'm not sure what a dealer is to do about the failing of a window regulator on a 10 year old car.

The same thing goes for washing the car. If I take my car to the car wash and water gets in the door --- do I blame the carwash?


I certainly would have pointed out the problem to the service writer and inquired what he thought may have happened to the front door - and I would have expected him to inquire with the mechanic as to a possible cause if he did not have one. They may have a normal failure point -- I have no idea. Did the rear window fail as you tested it? Because if it had failed when the mechanic opened it -- I don't think it would have closed.

Nola

Machines fail all the time. No component lasts forever even if seldom used. What, you think there is no dust in your garage? Or that it somehow stops time? The car is 11 years old! It is the owner's responsibility to replace the components when they fail. Get over it.

In addition, part of your problem is you making and sealing imaginary deals in your head... who ever heard of a dealer coming halfway? They either accept responsibility, or they don't. It was your own fantasy expectation that made you so angry. The dealer, or Mercedes, did not make any promises they didn't keep.

OCG-Harper

It is obvious from the responses, that my expectations were unrealistic. I hope that my post and subsequent replies can be used as a point of reference for those who share a similar situation. I feel let down, but that is to be expected when closely held assumptions are shown to be fallacy. Had the roles been reversed, I would have handled it very differently, have handled things differently. I have been reading forums on this and other MB sites for quite some time, and yes this is my first post. It is the first time I felt strongly enough to chime in. I do this with other brands (Jeep, Ford, Harley) as well. I have offered my knowledge (only) to other jeep owners (only) because I have a lot of experience working on CJ-7’s systems. I posted here to see what feedback I could get. I do note that there are a number of negative posts about Mercedes service. I have also noted a number of times where (Ohlord) and (EdzBenz) have given good advice/feedback to a number of posters. Gentlemen thank you for knowledge, I hope it comes back to you in spades. (Clkwork) I am sorry I snapped at you, but I stand by what I said. I have a 90+ mile round trip every time I utilize this shop. I have brought the car to them for every service since the original purchase (with one exception, still a MB dealer). I have never failed to pay my bill. The windows DID work before the dealer had the car. In fact the front window was rolled up just after the service advisor was handed the key for the initial B service. Last, what do you suppose my motivation was for scamming them? Did I break the dammed things just to see them squirm? Did I secretly know the regulators would fail and was revved up for a fight? Your logic doesn’t track: let’s flip it and see if it could be used against them, 1. How do I know they DIDN’T do something, 2. They don’t know why both regulators failed at the same time, 3. I know that the front was in fact working the moment they received the car and suspect the same of the other, 4. How many times have I scammed them? It comes out inconclusive either way, why not take care of the customer first, instead of seeing it as an opportunity to write another service ticket (that makes revenue). (Amdeutch) Sorry about the benzworld quote. It was shear laziness on my part, I did a search and (it) came up first. One last question: be honest! How many of you folks have heard of (or) experienced two window regulators failing at the same time? One last statement: window regulators average about $110 each, motors about $55 (retail), assume about $10 in consumables (rivets/grease/cleaner/rags). For both windows that is $340 plus labor. I’m not sure what the flat rate is these days, but let’s say its $50 an hour and it calls for an hour per door. Okay that is $440 for the whole job. That is the basic cost and doesn’t assume the profits built in to retail and flat rate pricing. And let’s say the job is originally quoted at over $700. As a minimum that is $260 of pure gravy. My conclusion: Don’t drink the koolaid! Sound cynical? Well I’m certainly getting that way. If you are happy with you service experience, wonderful. If you love your car, wonderful. I hope you continue to have positive experiences, and treat others as you would like to be treated.

clkwork

No worries, you're entitled to feel let down. I was just posting my observation as an outsider, take it with a grain of salt.

Jeff

EdzBenz

You're going to hate me for saying this, but in my experience, if you don't use it you will lose it. Not using the windows can actually be more detrimental to their longevity/reliability than using them a few times per month. The window regulators need to be exercised once in a while. My father had his 190D for a really long time and felt that if he never used the windows then they would remain working for a long time. Wrong. The moment I inherited the car, and started using the windows, the motors ran funny and regulators broke. I obviously don't have scientific proof of this, but my guess is some other forum members may back me up with their experience on it too.

Best of luck with your car. A window regular will cost you less than $200, and you can DIY it yourself. Screw going to the dealer for repairs.

JonMBZ

This is what I find funny

"I have opened the rear windows (maybe) two or three times in eleven years."

"When the dealer received the car everything was in working order."

This is the type of thing I have seen all my life working in the car industry. Dealers get ripped off all the time and this just goes to show you it's happened again. Not only did they have to pay for half of the repair bill now you have gone online and trashed them also persuading other customers not to use their service. I also do not think it's a coincidence. I am sure the back one was broken for a while and then the last one gave out. I had a E46 BMW 3 series and had 5 go bad in one year, but I never blamed the dealer I also do not use the rear windows passengers do though, but I guess you never had them.