Finally I have set yet another Mercedes on fire. This time my own. My front brakes burst into flames at the tail end of a hard slow speed canyon run. The car barely stops now, shudders, and is sitting in the garage at the local Benz dealer. I will have to upgrade to Stoptechs or something.

The stupid overtemp light didn't come on until after the flames. Then I began to drive and the flames were fanned out by the wheels. Then I stopped again and the dash light up with 2 messages. The E-320 needs bigger brakes from the factory. My stupid car has stupid Michelins that barely stick and I still killed the brake system. Oh well. Life is too short and the road is too long to drive anything but a Mercedes-Benz.

I couldn't get flame thrower shots because I had to get them out so I don't lose the car. Although then that would give me a reason to get an E-350 or E-500.

 

Did you use gearing to get down the hill or just ride the brakes? Makes a big difference.

 

melted the pad compound right onto the rotor.

 

when driving at the limit or near the limit gear selection is only used to get ready to leave the corner and keep the car ballanced with throttle steering. THe brakes are the only item on a car capable of slowing it down when driving near the limit. If he waited for engine braking to take effect we would all be dead right now

but yes he uses the trans constantly to keep the motor on boil and well ballanced.

 

You took an E320 out canyon carving? Wrong tool for the job, IMO. I can just hear the grinding understeer for miles. :LOL:

Maybe you can find some E55 brakes or something if you plan on making this a habit. Upgrade to some ATE SuperBlue brake fluid and maybe get some Panther Plus brake pads.

 

Is the "hard slow speed canyon" on a track? I just don't get it. I have personally raced my Porsche 930 on the Nurburgring numerous times and I have hit 184 MPH almost every time. I have never used my brakes enough to even come close to making them glow red. Although the Porsche 930 does have bigger brakes than the E320, I also took my 190E 2.3-16 on the ring and beat the crap out of it. I only had worn tires, but my brakes were always OK.

Who taught you how to race?? No offense, but really? Mercedes does not undersize their brakes. They are very conscious about this. All Es are designed to be able to stop repeatedly from 135MPH to 55MPH without any problems. This is important because it is totally normal to be barreling down the left lane on the autobahn when a slow car pulls right in front of you to pass a slow-moving truck. I did this repeated times when I lived there and I never even warped my rotors. The only problem is that I never got more than 22k miles out of the front brake pads. Here in the US, I usually get at least 45K out of front pads.

So, I would definitely upgrade your brakes, but I would also see if you could get either inside/outside videotapes of your driving. This might clue you in as to what you might be doing wrong. Also, do you have any idea what temperature the rotors have to hit in order to have the warning light turn on? Do you have any other racers who race 5 series 6-cylinder BMWs and have the same problems?

I am not meaning to disrespect you, it could be that you are training and you are indeed driving correctly, but if this is still happening, you need to buy a sports car like a Porsche or something with ceramic rotors.

Steve

 

he is considering e55 brakes. we can get them at cost...

 

yes.

MBs are designed to stop from high speed only a couple of times (2-3). the scenario that caused his brakes to catch on fire was a long set of downhill switchbacks and he was driving the car 10/10ths. any rotor will glow after prolonged use like this.

 

I can't believe people are driving these E class as some race cars, and then complain about failures.

I don't see anybody taking a Ferrari offroading and complain about car being too low.

Use some common sense.

 

My research has shown the PCCB system is highly flawed and that prolonged track style use leads to cracking and rotor degradation. Many dealerships tell owners of cars with PCCB to remove the ceramic rotors and install steal rotors for track use due to the high failure rate see in the PCCB system. The fade free nature of the brake allows the car to last longer under load but the heat eventually becomes to great and the rotor begins to crack. In a bad case the rotor can actually chunk and cause a serious failure.

The driver in question does drive hard but the nature of the road is such that ANY road going car would have break fade. I bet a normal 996 would have a bit of fade in this case but the MB had a complete failure.

A key factor in the fire is the SBC brake by wire system. It compensates for fade by clamping the rotor harder to generate the desired stopping force. Once the brake gets to warm however there is no way for the driver to see the effect of brake fade and there is no sign that one should slow down. Only when it is to late do the breaks go away and this can in some cases could lead to a possible crash. There should be a better warning system if there is no direct connection between the driver and the brake system because sudden brake failure is a true hazard.

 

With a rational drive the W211 V6 and V8 (non kompressor V8's) are very neutral and there is minimal understeer. Any car will push if driven to quickly but the W211 cars (non AMG) actually produce well executed 4 wheel drifts for a 4 door car. Few people actually use the E320 in this manner but it really does excel. AirMatic transforms the car once you begin to throw it around.

 

Well, then it sounds like we are not in disagreement here. Glowing rotors are not the biggest deal, but if they get so hot that they ignite, and then there is a BIG PROBLEM. Ceramic rotors will also glow but it is not a problem if they do.

The issue I have will these blanket statements that the E 320 does not have big enough brakes is that they are still the biggest if you compare them to ANY US 4-door sedan in its category. As a matter a fact, there is more braking power on an E320 than on a Yukon or Escalade (which are supposed to two 5,000+ lbs).

I am surprised that this 4-door sedan can even hold up in the conditions this person is driving it! It is as if I took my E320 on an African rally and then said that there was not enough ground clearance in this car from the factory.

The statement sounds as if the owner of the E class does not know that an E sedan is not a sports car and he is expecting it to be one. I would not hold that against the car. I have not read anything anywhere that ever places an E320 as a performance sports car. It is nice to see that the car can take a lot of abuse, but I question the person who then makes blanket statements about the car's overall engineering. Try taking a Lincoln LS on the same track and make it do the same things. I bit that you will have no warning at all and simply loose your brakes all together.

Steve

 

That is interesting to know. I thought that weight distribution as good and that this W211 was definitely more nimble than my past Mercedes cars, but I did not know that they were even fun to push to the limits. I imagine that a 4 Matic would add to the fun then.

I did notice that the car is very stable and predictable when skidding on ice and snow, but I did not immediately think that it would also be like that on a racetrack.

Steve

 

I'll have to take your word for it. All my track time is in cars other than the E320. It's a great highway cruiser - but no sports car. I've only drifted this thing in the snow.

BTW - my car is non-airmatic. Mildy pushing the car around the twisties produces some understeer. This is on non-staggered 245/45/18s. It would seem that running a staggered setup would produce even more understeer.

Maybe just for fun I'll auto-x this thing during a non-championship event. It might be fun for the helluvit.

No desire to take the E320 to the track since I have a car for that purpose already.

 

I think these posts really are describing what does or might happen if the car is abused to the point of inducing a failure. I found this comment, posted in the C Class W203 thread, by the initial poster of this W211 brake thread and it helps me put his use in context:
"I have many amazing stories of defiling loaner Benzes especially 02 c230 coupes and 04 c240 sedans, and 02 210 e320 loaners."

 

The E320 does not understeer. 41psi front, 36psi rear, and AirMatic on Sport II. The thing drifts. No push. Even the 210s didn't push with proper tire pressure. You're right I need E55 brakes. A brake upgrade is in the works as we speak. Stoptech 13" all around using stock wheels.

 

i would not consider a canyon run "abuse." taking a loaner car and doing some offroading with it, like in the techademics videos, i would call abuse. we have never done anything like that. strictly on road use. driving 10/10ths is not abuse, the car is designed to handle it. (supposedly)

 

and why was he doing this on public roads?

take 10/10ths driving to the track.

what scares me most is that these guys are from so cal and doing these runs. i also ride motorcycles in the canyons (at safe speeds). if any of these guys ever goes 10.1/10ths and takes me out in my motorcycle, you'll bet that i'll spend my eternity in my afterlife making all these guys suffer.

 

Well, hopefully your car didn't look like this afterwards...

 

thats funny because its the idiots on motorcycles who go out in the canyons and get themselves killed, all on their own too. the weekends are the worst time to enjoy any sort of canyon driving because of the stupid mc guys doing burnouts and crashing. cops *actually* make a point of patroling the canyons on the weekend for this very reason, to keep the mc idiots from killing themselves.

we never go out during the day when there are people enjoying a nice afternoon drive (i respect that and make a point not to go out then), we only go out rather late. so unless you are out at 12-1am, you have nothing to fear. you have nothing to fear anyway, but just in case you did...

 

Hey barw211e320, can I get a ride in your car after you upgrade? I want to see what fun I'm missing out on.

 

Hahaha. Let me chime in, since I love my car's agility and I drive a Suzuki GSXR1000 in the canyons as well. Let's be serious here. Each of us takes our lives and those of others into our own hands when we drive in any sort of fashion that increases the odds of an accident. That is why there are laws and penalties. Having said that, let's just discuss taking responsibility of your own actions and not start bashing people for killing themselves. This is a very touchy subject for me as a dear friend of mine died recently while riding his motorcycle home on the highway. A simple tire blow out. No car involved and no irresponsible actions involved.
I find these threads very interesting as I have not pushed my E500 in any sporty way, but I love to see that some do. They may not be "sports cars", but if we can enjoy them, why not?

Lastly, I wanted to know if this brake fade tendency is just related to the E320 or if the E500s have also shown it? My brakes look pretty beefy and I have actually been quite impressed with how they work. Again, i have never pushed them that hard, but I did drop from an altitude of 10000 feet to sea level with no concerns what so ever.

 

I drive my E320 more like a Touring safe and comfortable sedan that it is.
If I wanted it to be used as a race car I would have bought an AMG version.

With that in mind I have a question though.
It seems that most disc pads being used nowadays have way too much "organic" components in them. Could that be what burned up on that guys brake pads?
I recently replaced (or better yet had a car shop do it for me) my other C230 front disck pads. I noticed that it has become a black dust factory around the front wheels after that was done. Is that the way the new pads are being made to reduce the brake noises?
What is a good brand of disk pads that does not produce too much dust and works reliably for normal city and highway driving?
Thanks for your help. (Does Bendix make good brake pads for MB? I notice they offer a lifetime warranty. Are the new ceramic pads better?)
BTW: isn't that great that the car actually had a sensor for brake overheat? Most cars I know don't even have such a thing and their brake system would have faded or overheated much sooner.

Some people see the half empty glass . Others see the half full one.

There are 10 kinds of people.
Those who understand the binary, and those who do not.

 

What on earth is a lifetime warranty on a brake pad?

 

Lifetime warranties are a gimic to sell the pads, knowing you will get rid of the car before their extremely hard pads degrade.

The brake dust thing is another topic. It is clear that softer pads have better stopping power, but with that comes increased heat and the need to dissipate it away.

There has also been an industry push to reduce the dust, so many manufacturers have gone towards the harder compounds to avoid the cosmetic effects. I am not accusing them of decreasing safety, but there is a very fine line between braking power and cosmetic and or noise related issues. Obviously, cost also fits in to the equation.

My advice to anyone that uses their cars in a mild fashion is to stick with the Factory pads or upgrade to nicer ones, but choose what you want. There is no one pad that fits all needs.

If you want long life, you give up breaking power.
If you want performance, you give up long life, dust, possible squeaking, and added stress to other components.

Life is all about compromises. Decide what you want and then get the pads that fit your style. The pads that I would use may not fit your needs.