CE750

OK rjm.. I spent about 15 minutes on a lexus forum (which I'm sure you're a member) and did some searches.. came up with these (there were in excess of 500 pages more..) But I just don't have the time..

Bottom line.. Lexus IS MORE reliable than MB... but not by a as much as you want to believe.. to quote the JD Power info..

I would hardly call that a disaster for MB!

Also.. here's a sampling of LS430 and other Lexus problems on OTHER boards...


Sounds system problems
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161072

LS430 won't start
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139264

Key's failing on LS430
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156767

Harsh rise on LS430
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152497

Park Assist acting up LS430
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151341

Lights have moisture in them (also not the comment about MB having "cutting edge tech")
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145145

Folding mirrors fail LS430
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141964

LS430 with multiple issues
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141764

LS430 multiple problems
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/show....php?t=140469&

Looks like a lexus version of rjm
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131493

Transmission blown at 105,000
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178517

Automatic AC not working right
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178237

Tranmission software to make shift softer not doing it..
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87068

Oil leak at 45000
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178096

Car wont reverse
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178211

Brake peddle noise
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154152

Starter failed
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177963

97' ES has a "lot of problems" since it's a new model year.. hmm... can we say '03 W211?
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178073

Also read this:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/inde...5&article=7159

lig

Sam -

Your disdain for Japanese cars cracks me up. The truth is that out of all the cars I have ever owned - a Japanese one is my favorite.

My 2002 Honda S2000 has been unbelievably good. Feels great - handles remarkably well (my S2000 and I are the WWSCC IA autocross champs for 2004 + and I'm going to repeat in 2005 ) and in over three years has never once had anything but routine maintenance.

I do agree that Japanese cars don't have the prestiege of some German marques but IMO a badge is the wrong reason to buy a car.

It's all about buying the right tool for the job. M-B cars clearly fit your needs. I'm happy you're happy.

To the original poster: Sorry to hear that your car is giving you so many problems. It seems that early W211s had more than their fair share of issues. Mine certainly did.

CE750

Sorry, I just find them completely BORING and without a Soul. Have felt that way for as long as I can remember, well before I could even drive.

rjm(other MB nay sayers) ... waiting on your rebuttal for my last post.

lig

There are certainly a whole bunch of Japanese cars that are boring as hell - no doubt about that.

That doesn't mean that they are *all* boring, soulless appliances though.

Looking at your sig - it's a nice garage you have there. Having said that - if you're after vehicles with soul I can think of a few equivalents to what you currently own that will definitely put a smile on your face.

A nice alternative to the E would be the Infiniti M45. Kick *** car. Certainly not lacking in the soul department.

After driving an XC 90 I found the FX 45 way more entertaining. The interior of the FX isn't all that impressive but it gets down the road really well.

Never say never. I used to say "no American cars for me - ever"

The new Z06 is making me think about saving up some extra $$$. 505 HP and 3100 pounds?!? Wow. I'm clearly going to rethink that no American car thing...

rjm

Allow me to quote from the 2005 Vehicle Dependibility Study released recently by J.D. Power and Associates:

"J.D. Power and Associates have released their 2005 Vehicle Dependibility Study (VDS) and Lexus tops the list for the 11th straight year...The highest ranked vehicle was the Lexus LS430 which suffered from only 90 problems per 100 vehicles sold. The first vehicle in the history of the test to have less than one problem per unit sold."

As a comparison, Mercedes-Benz ranked 28th in the same study with 283 problems per 100 vehicles. I'd say that's a pretty stark difference.

Keep on drinking that Kool-Aid!

CE750

Sat in the M45 two days ago... DID NOT impress me with the interior fit and finish, or materials.. that is a major part of why I like MB specifically, and German cars in general.

BTW... not anti- Japanese here... I replaced a great set of German made Wusthof Knives with an even better set of Japanese KAI knives taht cost 3 times as much... I also use a Nikon D2, with Nikkor lenses, and not Zeiss...

I'm pretty objective in my views... the fact that a Toyota is 2 or 3 times as reliable is completely meaningless to me.. A Rolls Royce is even less reliable... so what?

CE750

Not really... the data you site contradicts my data from JD.. so clearly this is a different survey.. either way.. assuming your data is telling of the reliability of the typical car... it's roughly 2.8 times less reliable than a Toyota.. so what? Read the part (which I'm sure you didn't read any of my post) where the member mentions MB's "Cutting Edge" tech which leads to a lot of these problems... Toyota just copies it after MB gets it working correctly. SBC (or a version of it) will appear on Toyota in the next few years.. mark my words.

rjm

You quoted from the old 2004 Initial Quality Survey, which reflects problems in a brand new car in the dealer's showroom.....my data is from the 2005 Vehicle Dependibility Study which has just recently been released. It reflects problems detected after being in the hands of owners and driven for a period of time. It reflects dependibility and reliability after the car has been down the road for a few miles.

CE750

Eitherway, the 283, while not a good thing is not going to deter me from driving a MB.. I understand MB invested heavily in QC for 2004-2005, so we'll see how the 2006 survey comes in. But it's about the overall experience for me, quality in the form of construction and interior materials.. not just how well the electronics work (which can easily be fixed with software) and from my own subjective view MB is a clear winner in that area.

I also read the MB basically told JD to kiss their ***.. since the survey asked about cup holders and brake dust!

lig

I, for one do not believe that you can get to the essence of a car by simply by sitting in it. You've got to drive it.

Fit and finish? Materials quality? I thought the M-B was nice. IMO the Audi is better put together than the M-B was and the materials are nicer. The M45 is pretty good in that department but the real pleasure of that car is in the driving.


Easlily fixed with software?!? Now I have to agree with rjm - you've been drinking the cool-aid for sure. :v

rjm

WHAAAAAATTT!!!!!

CE750

It's real simple rjm... I bought this car 3 months ago, all told I've spend about $67,000 on it (including Renntech tuning, Steve's mods, the new wheels, and taxes).. so I wasn't out of the price range of a Lexus LS430 or GS430.. I chose not to get one, that makes me objective in my opinion.

I regret not knowing more about the MB options when I bought my car, so I could have ordered my car with all of the stuff I wanted and saved some money on after market mods.. other than that I have no regrets. If I had bought anything else, I wouldn't be as happy, I'm sure.

Hope your as happy as I am with your wheels.. take care.

CE750

to show how objective I can be... I agree the Audi is top in interior fit and finish.. but the A6 with all the options came out the same price as the MB when I looked... and the reason I ultimately went with the MB over the A6 was the Diesel won me over. The E500 would have had a tougher time competing with an A6 V8 car.. There, MB isn't God, it's just the car I like for many reasons..

rjm

Yea it sure sounds like it from reading the problems encountered by new owners on this forum. Here's one posted yesterday from a guy with a 2004 E-320 that needed a new engine at 16,000 miles. They found metal shavings inside the cylinders. Sure sound to me like they are really working on that quality. My friend, you are driving a Chrysler with a Mercedes badge on it.

https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...86#post1272686

Barry45RPM

I've said it before, and I'll say it again... MB's "quality issues" are mostly all about the poor exceution of software programming & design. The hardware is all "solid block of steel" quality, but the MB software people just haven't got a freakin' clue on how to make all of todays "gee-whiz" options work properly, dependably, and repetitively.

People have always joked about imagining if the "Windows 98 OS" ran your car, with all the constant rebooting & freeze-ups, and blue screens of death people had, would people stand for it like we do in the computer world...

If MB would only outsource the electronics design & programming to a Japanese company, the improvement would be immediate & measureable. ...but they don't, and rather than waiting for the Germans to fixi the stuff, MBUSA is removing as much of the "gee-whiz' stuff from the American Versions of the car so as to reduce owner complaints. The problem is, people want all the gee whiz options, and have been trained by the Japanese to expect it to work perfectly the 1st time & every time. People want a reliable 21st Century car... not the best damn 20th Century car possible. MB does not build the best damn 21st Century car, but they did build the best damn 20th Century car.

Outsource the electronics. You are no good at it, MB!

rjm

Thanks for jumping in Barry. I agree with most of what you have to say but I don't think that a 2004 E-320 with 16K on it that requires a new engine because of metal shavings inside the cylinders is a "software problem." Or in my case, a transmission failure on a E-430 with 24,000 miles on it. I did have several "software issues" with my MB. I could deal with those....it's the major "hard failures" that drive me away from the brand. We all hope that the new CEO (from Chrysler, of course) will turn the company around and start building them again like they did in the 80's. It's the guys that refuse to face reality and be just a little bit objective in their opinions that drive me nuts. We all love Mercedes, or we wouldn't be on this forum. We would just like to see them address the serious problems they face in turning the quality of their vehicles around.

ruykava

ah, then there's that strange ADAC survey that put Merc right in the top spot for reliability - in that case, meaning the number of times it breaks down i.e. refuses to start or go anywhere.

***WARNING: start rant/
the german/japanese quality debate is actually a huge oversimplification. i drive a nissan and i can tell you the quality is horrible. horrible. sure, on the surface it's fine, but look underneath and it's like a tin foil with uneven metal, rough welding, and paint ending very suddenly. the paintjob is bad. and water gets in the headlights (seems like lexus has this problem as well?). after just 3000km there's a knocking sound from the rear suspension, squeeks from the aircon compressor, and plastic shaking like crazy. and the engine's begun to vibrate badly. i don't know why.

as for audi - i've sat in the new A6, and that MMI knob is just too easy to turn - not enough resistance - feels cheap. and the switches click-clack like crazy, just like the first batch of A4s. NOT what i expected from what magazines like to call the master of interior quality.

and i run far, far away from japanese gadgets - the software interface is way too illogical - and touchscreens are nothing but a marketing point - give me a good button/cursor-driven interface anyday. that's why i always choose nokia over sony ericcson - sure, SE has all the new tech, but nokia has functions which make it much more useful as a serious phone.

toward that end, i'm happy to hear that MB have ditched Bosch for their COMMAND system and enlisted nokia - YES, that's the way to go!

the leather on lexus are nice, but stain, dirty, and wrinkle easily - especially here in the tropics, there are plenty where you can make out where the boss has been sitting just by the scratches. as for wood, they are nice, but not shaped in any artistic way - i get the feeling they're piling on the expensive stuff without any design ideas at all.
in fact, i think that's the whole reason behind their "soul-lessness".

as for BMW - well, lets just say i've heard enough horror stories from my friends not to consider one - serious stuff like getting locked inside and door seals failing on the highway. anyone sat in an X3? the plastics are so poor the bean counters deserve to be shot! seriously nasty stuff.
/end rant***

ok, all i'm saying is, i understand everyone's points above. i guess generally one could say that MB would have more problems than lexus. but for MOST people MB ownership is pain-free and happy - like mine. i sympathize with momsph for your problems. it's sad but true that loyal customers get lost through one bad experience. hope someone from MB is reading!

Barry45RPM

Major component failures (engines, trannies, etc.) occur in all makes. For every so many they build there will be some that werent cast well, or some other part failed & caused a catastrophic failure. I don't think MB has a higher level of these failures that anyone else. (Even Toyota has them!) Most of the complaints & poor JD Powers reports are based on the electronics complaints. Nothing robs a car owner of pleasure more than intermittant/erratic operation of electronics components, some of whom actually can take a car out of service, or worse leave it stranded.

Even with their quality problems, no other car has MBs "snob appeal". There is something to that 100 year old tri-star that makes people look to see who's driving the car. ...and whether people admit it or not thats still at least part of the reason people buy them! The electronics will improve. They have to or the crown will pass to someone else. EVERYTHING, has a lifetime.

CE750

Thank God someone else jumped in here on the side of MB... I felt for a while that I was alone in seeing what I see.. Quality is subjective, in that it's about more than just how often something complex fails..

rjm.. is the 767 a unreliable piece of crap? How many write ups did you do on it in your years flying it? How many ships did you take with Differed this and Differed that... an MB is no different.

BudC

I've been driving Mercedes since 1983. I buy them because they are one of the few marques that can be driven for years w/o forcing you to buy a new car. Very few makes can actually claim this to be true.

How many companies would manufacture new heads for a Gullwing? How many companies would provide parts for 25 years? This seems to be a European thing. Just try to get parts for an older Nikon yet I can still get parts for my 38 year old Leica M3 (and which will still work with the worlds finest 35mm lenses).

The Europeans and especially the Germans have been leaders in automotive technology since the inception of the motor car. I think they've gotten ahead of themselves with electronic gadgetry. On the other hand, Toyota sits quietly (and smugly) by letting the Germans do the R&D on new technology while they pick and choose to implement the things that have been sorted out by the Germans and other Europeans.

I've been in blizzards in our old 190D and I've got to say that that three pointed star on the hood provided me with more confidence than I'd get with any other brand. That car never once let us down in the 17 years we owned it. I hope that the E320 will be half as good.

rjm

Boeing 757/767 = Lexus

Mercedes-Benz = Airbus

rjm

Let me get this straight...you are basing your opinions, evaluation, expertise and experience of Mercedes-Benz ownership on owning one for 3 months? Man, are you in for some surprises as the months tick on!

CE750

BTW.. do me a favor and take a magnet to your body panels.. I'm curious if they're steel or aluminum. Not making any judgement, just curious.

also rjm.. It's been my experience that the first few months of a car's life tell volumes of what the rest of it's life will be like. I also take extra care and over maintain my cars, which helps.

CE750

be careful, I hear the Airbuses are more reliable

rjm

Just took a refrigerator magnet and all the panels are steel. And a much heavier guage steel than was on my E-430. That was one thing that bothered me...it would dent very easily...like a heavy tinfoil. You could take your finger and put a dent in the MB...literally! I don't think you can do that with the Lexus.