Benz has good looks but poor quality
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Newbie
Joined: Sep 2005
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From: SF, Cal
2007 S550
Benz has good looks but poor quality
I own a 2003 S500 W220 and 03 E240 2.6L W211.
03 E240 W211: As of 9/13/05 7,700km or about 4,600 miles
Rear Sam replaced: Battery started draining on its own.
SBC problems: My brakes weakened severely almost causing an accident.
Malfunctions: There are always malfunctions on my gauge and my radio sometimes would not work.
03 S500 W220: As of 9/13/05 10,500 km or 6,300 miles
1st 1,000 km: A/C failure
1st 5,000 km: Crank shaft replaced: CRANK SHAFT...!!!
1st 10,000 km: Air Suspension Failure
My question is this, although warranty/recall applies to all the problems, Why does MERCEDES BENZ produce such poor quality vehicles? Between the two units, I spent about US$140,000 to buy new. My daily honda CRV has virtually zero or no problems at only US$20,000.
Anyone experieced the same problems? I made a booking for a new BMW 735Li and expected delivery should be the end of the month. Will immediately sell the S500. Such beautiful cars but quality really needs to be improved.
03 E240 W211: As of 9/13/05 7,700km or about 4,600 miles
Rear Sam replaced: Battery started draining on its own.
SBC problems: My brakes weakened severely almost causing an accident.
Malfunctions: There are always malfunctions on my gauge and my radio sometimes would not work.
03 S500 W220: As of 9/13/05 10,500 km or 6,300 miles
1st 1,000 km: A/C failure
1st 5,000 km: Crank shaft replaced: CRANK SHAFT...!!!
1st 10,000 km: Air Suspension Failure
My question is this, although warranty/recall applies to all the problems, Why does MERCEDES BENZ produce such poor quality vehicles? Between the two units, I spent about US$140,000 to buy new. My daily honda CRV has virtually zero or no problems at only US$20,000.
Anyone experieced the same problems? I made a booking for a new BMW 735Li and expected delivery should be the end of the month. Will immediately sell the S500. Such beautiful cars but quality really needs to be improved.
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Joined: Nov 2004
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From: The Earth
Mercedes all the way!
strange that you have such problems. i've never heard of actual brake failures before on the SBC - could you elaborate on your experience, and also on the gauge malfunction and radio malfunctions?
the air suspension problem i've heard before, but never so early and never the AC or crank shaft problems.
did you buy the car new? i have a bad feeling yours might be what in malaysia is called a "potong" (i.e. cut - people cut two written off cars and weld them together, then re-register them) car. best check with whoever you bought it from (although it's unlikely to yield much results).
as can be seen from my profile i've almost the same cars as you, and until today they haven't given me any trouble at all. neither does my uncle who has a 2000 W220 S500.
the air suspension problem i've heard before, but never so early and never the AC or crank shaft problems.
did you buy the car new? i have a bad feeling yours might be what in malaysia is called a "potong" (i.e. cut - people cut two written off cars and weld them together, then re-register them) car. best check with whoever you bought it from (although it's unlikely to yield much results).
as can be seen from my profile i've almost the same cars as you, and until today they haven't given me any trouble at all. neither does my uncle who has a 2000 W220 S500.
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From: FL410
'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
Depends on how you define quality?
I define it as: Workmanship, materials, and aesthetics.. The MB wins hands down!
If you define it as: reliable, engineered to basic standards that always work.. then the Toyota..
But you're comparing a Timex to a Rolex.
I define it as: Workmanship, materials, and aesthetics.. The MB wins hands down!
If you define it as: reliable, engineered to basic standards that always work.. then the Toyota..
But you're comparing a Timex to a Rolex.
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 334
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From: Irvine, CA
05 E500 Wagon
Too funny you’re jumping to BMW…that’s where I just came from, in the last 16 months I’ve owned 3 BMW’s all with problems…while my problems were not IMHO indicative of the brand as a whole…BMW will probably never get my business again. And while I’ve heard little things here and there regarding MBZ quality…I balance that by two things
1- people 9 times out of 10 (or probably more like 99 times out of a hundred) post to these boards to complain vs. praise their vehicles (you’re a prime example of this…2+ years of ownership and the first time you drop by here is to say why you don’t like the brand)….
2- There is no way in hell my experience can be any worse with MBZ than it was with BMW.
I’m sure your new BMW will be fine (most are)…my last 3 were not… here is what I went through and why I’m here.
525 (E60 new body)
In the first 6500 miles:
Bad Brakes
Bad Steering Rack
Failed iDrive
Replaced Sunroof
New Door Seals
Then 545 (E60 new body)
In the first two weeks
Bad Paint…BMW took it back
Another 545 (E60 new body)
In the first 9600 miles:
Bad Brakes (replaced rear brakes)
Bad Steering Rack (replaced steering rack…after steering went out while driving!!)
Failed iDrive
Replaced Sunroof
New Door Seals
Replaced Windshield
Replaced 3 window regulators
Replaced the fuel tank
Reinstalled Dash Cluster
Bad Tranny issues (slammed into gear)…3 loads of software and the problem improved but was not solved
Loose Drivers Seat (uninstalled and reinstalled)
A horn that would honk (on occasion) when I would put the car in reverse
And a couple other things that added up to nearly 37 days in the shop over about 9 months
1- people 9 times out of 10 (or probably more like 99 times out of a hundred) post to these boards to complain vs. praise their vehicles (you’re a prime example of this…2+ years of ownership and the first time you drop by here is to say why you don’t like the brand)….
2- There is no way in hell my experience can be any worse with MBZ than it was with BMW.
I’m sure your new BMW will be fine (most are)…my last 3 were not… here is what I went through and why I’m here.
525 (E60 new body)
In the first 6500 miles:
Bad Brakes
Bad Steering Rack
Failed iDrive
Replaced Sunroof
New Door Seals
Then 545 (E60 new body)
In the first two weeks
Bad Paint…BMW took it back
Another 545 (E60 new body)
In the first 9600 miles:
Bad Brakes (replaced rear brakes)
Bad Steering Rack (replaced steering rack…after steering went out while driving!!)
Failed iDrive
Replaced Sunroof
New Door Seals
Replaced Windshield
Replaced 3 window regulators
Replaced the fuel tank
Reinstalled Dash Cluster
Bad Tranny issues (slammed into gear)…3 loads of software and the problem improved but was not solved
Loose Drivers Seat (uninstalled and reinstalled)
A horn that would honk (on occasion) when I would put the car in reverse
And a couple other things that added up to nearly 37 days in the shop over about 9 months
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From: Valley of the Sun, Arizona
2011 E550, 2013 GLK
Originally Posted by CE750
But you're comparing a Timex to a Rolex.
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Senior Member
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Posts: 339
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From: Michigan, USA
'05 E320 CDI, '07 VW Touareg V10 TDI, 2007 Porsche GT3
I, too, came to M-B from a BMW. Our 2000 528i was a great car, far superior to our CDI in terms of chassis dynamics. But the number of minor problems that occurred during the warranty period convinced me to replace the car when the warranty expired.
By contrast, our CDI has been near-perfect, with no issues needing a dealer's attention during the first year/11K miles. Build quality of the CDI seems marginally better than the BMW as well.
You realize, I'm sure, that the W211 was in it's first year when you bought yours. In retrospect, that was a model year hugely prone to problems. I think if you look at the inaugural model year of the current BMW 7 series, however, you'll see something equally bad if not worse.
Good luck with your new Bimmer. The 7 series is now three years old, and hopefully has had the bugs all worked out.
By contrast, our CDI has been near-perfect, with no issues needing a dealer's attention during the first year/11K miles. Build quality of the CDI seems marginally better than the BMW as well.
You realize, I'm sure, that the W211 was in it's first year when you bought yours. In retrospect, that was a model year hugely prone to problems. I think if you look at the inaugural model year of the current BMW 7 series, however, you'll see something equally bad if not worse.
Good luck with your new Bimmer. The 7 series is now three years old, and hopefully has had the bugs all worked out.
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From: FL410
'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
Originally Posted by chenry
1- people 9 times out of 10 (or probably more like 99 times out of a hundred) post to these boards to complain vs. praise their vehicles (you’re a prime example of this…2+ years of ownership and the first time you drop by here is to say why you don’t like the brand)….
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Joined: Mar 2005
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Add me to that list. The last BMW I owned found 8 different ways to light up the check engine light in 3 years! My mercedes, when it breaks, seems to get faulty sensors replaced, but its never the engine or drivetrain. Overall, I'd rather have a bad window regulator than a bad engine!
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 326
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From: USA
Multiple
Originally Posted by CE750
Depends on how you define quality?
I define it as: Workmanship, materials, and aesthetics.. The MB wins hands down!
If you define it as: reliable, engineered to basic standards that always work.. then the Toyota..
But you're comparing a Timex to a Rolex.
I define it as: Workmanship, materials, and aesthetics.. The MB wins hands down!
If you define it as: reliable, engineered to basic standards that always work.. then the Toyota..
But you're comparing a Timex to a Rolex.
The guy is talking about QUALITY...and the LACK of it in his Mercedes automobiles that were purchased new and obviously not abused. It is pretty widely known that Mercedes quality has suffered tremendously in the past 4 years or so...or since their merger with Chrysler. In my case, a transmission failure at 32,000 miles on a E-430 that I bought new and NEVER abused in any way. The quality is just not there. My car spent months in the shop for a variety of problems....and as you know, I now drive a Lexus LS-430...with NO problems to date. Give me that Seiko anyday!
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CE750, I'll have to politely disagree with you on workmanship and materials.
Considering the following, I believe Lexus is ahead of Mercedes, but with Mercedes more stringint quality control coming into effect in the near future, it'll only be for a little bit longer.
Panel gaps, exterior and interior.
Leather look and feel.
Wood look and feel.
As well as a lew of other things which I can't name of the top of my head, but the thing which has been repeated is that the Lexus LS430 can't mimic the solid thud of other cars. Possibly it's the pnuematic door closers, but I can't put my finger on it.
I think my friend said it best, he's a Japanse car fanatic; specifically Lexus' and Acuras.
When I was taking the feeder ramp onto the highway at a good 100mph in my X5, he said 'Now I know the difference between German cars, and Japanese cars.'
Considering the following, I believe Lexus is ahead of Mercedes, but with Mercedes more stringint quality control coming into effect in the near future, it'll only be for a little bit longer.
Panel gaps, exterior and interior.
Leather look and feel.
Wood look and feel.
As well as a lew of other things which I can't name of the top of my head, but the thing which has been repeated is that the Lexus LS430 can't mimic the solid thud of other cars. Possibly it's the pnuematic door closers, but I can't put my finger on it.
I think my friend said it best, he's a Japanse car fanatic; specifically Lexus' and Acuras.
When I was taking the feeder ramp onto the highway at a good 100mph in my X5, he said 'Now I know the difference between German cars, and Japanese cars.'
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From: FL410
'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
I guess maybe this stuff is subjective... I sat in a Lexus LS430 just yesterday, as well as an Acura TL and Infinity M45... just to make sure I wasn't missing something.. the plastics IN ALL of them were inferior in tactile feel for me (especially the stereo/HAVC controls) and the fit and finish (while by no means poor) wasn't as tight as the W211... let alone a W220.
I might also add, the Acura has BY FAR the best body panel gaps... but that's not that important to me, and really doesn't tell me how well the rest of the car is made. Most of these Japanese cars have exposed undersides and frontwheel drive, but to name a few issues I have with them (not sure about the top of the line LS430).. but the Honda products were most unimpressive from underneath. The W211 had panels covering most if it, except the RWD workings and exhaust which was well insulated and protected from road salts, etc..
There is more to quality than Reliability rjm, and that's what you keep missing with these debates.. A Patek Phillipe is far less reliable than a Seiko.. but WHY ON GOD's EARTH WOULD ANYONE WANT A SEIKO OVER A PATEK? - well, to tell time I guess with 100% reliability... but then it's just a matter of having the $ to keep the Patek running with $1000 services every 2-3 years.
I might also add, the Acura has BY FAR the best body panel gaps... but that's not that important to me, and really doesn't tell me how well the rest of the car is made. Most of these Japanese cars have exposed undersides and frontwheel drive, but to name a few issues I have with them (not sure about the top of the line LS430).. but the Honda products were most unimpressive from underneath. The W211 had panels covering most if it, except the RWD workings and exhaust which was well insulated and protected from road salts, etc..
There is more to quality than Reliability rjm, and that's what you keep missing with these debates.. A Patek Phillipe is far less reliable than a Seiko.. but WHY ON GOD's EARTH WOULD ANYONE WANT A SEIKO OVER A PATEK? - well, to tell time I guess with 100% reliability... but then it's just a matter of having the $ to keep the Patek running with $1000 services every 2-3 years.
Thread Starter
Newbie
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 13
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From: SF, Cal
2007 S550
Originally Posted by ruykava
strange that you have such problems. i've never heard of actual brake failures before on the SBC - could you elaborate on your experience, and also on the gauge malfunction and radio malfunctions?
the air suspension problem i've heard before, but never so early and never the AC or crank shaft problems.
did you buy the car new? i have a bad feeling yours might be what in malaysia is called a "potong" (i.e. cut - people cut two written off cars and weld them together, then re-register them) car. best check with whoever you bought it from (although it's unlikely to yield much results).
as can be seen from my profile i've almost the same cars as you, and until today they haven't given me any trouble at all. neither does my uncle who has a 2000 W220 S500.
the air suspension problem i've heard before, but never so early and never the AC or crank shaft problems.
did you buy the car new? i have a bad feeling yours might be what in malaysia is called a "potong" (i.e. cut - people cut two written off cars and weld them together, then re-register them) car. best check with whoever you bought it from (although it's unlikely to yield much results).
as can be seen from my profile i've almost the same cars as you, and until today they haven't given me any trouble at all. neither does my uncle who has a 2000 W220 S500.
upon acceleration on my w211, the warning lights on the gauge came on, "ESP failure, bring to shop" or something like that, then ABS, and handbrake lights came on. Brake failure, apparently the hydraulic brakes took over the system and helped me to stop but very very weak. almost causing an accident. Apparently there was a recall on the SBC, ground wire needs to be replaced and the a bracket needs to be installed. And software reprogramming? WHY DIDN'T MERCEDES BENZ think of this before selling the cars to the general public.
Cars were bought brand new which is why it has warranty. S500 Came straight from BENZ Germany. We even tracked the progress from order to shipment to delivery.
We have owned Mercedes Benz since the 70's but never experienced such bad quality. I think my previous E W210 was built better. And as for the S-Class, IMO, the 126 is still the best.
We will keep the W211 coz it looks really good. But I will give the 735Li a try just for a change.
Thread Starter
Newbie
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 13
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From: SF, Cal
2007 S550
Originally Posted by CE750
Depends on how you define quality?
I define it as: Workmanship, materials, and aesthetics.. The MB wins hands down!
If you define it as: reliable, engineered to basic standards that always work.. then the Toyota..
But you're comparing a Timex to a Rolex.
I define it as: Workmanship, materials, and aesthetics.. The MB wins hands down!
If you define it as: reliable, engineered to basic standards that always work.. then the Toyota..
But you're comparing a Timex to a Rolex.
Mercedes used to be reliable. What happened since the merge with Chrysler?
I started posting in this forum to express the concern on my cars to see if anyone experienced the same problems. Not to bash the brand. I am neither PRO or CON Benz.
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From: FL410
'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
Originally Posted by momsph
I owned a Timex and a couple of ROLEX, the only difference is that one is battery operated and the other has an automatic movement. Both in my opinion served its purpose. Both has never failed and both are reliable.
Mercedes used to be reliable. What happened since the merge with Chrysler?
I started posting in this forum to express the concern on my cars to see if anyone experienced the same problems. Not to bash the brand. I am neither PRO or CON Benz.
Mercedes used to be reliable. What happened since the merge with Chrysler?
I started posting in this forum to express the concern on my cars to see if anyone experienced the same problems. Not to bash the brand. I am neither PRO or CON Benz.
You had a bad personal experience, you should DEMAND MB makes your cars good.. thats all you can do.
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ok, I read the topic and knew this is gonna be a controlversy topic so I just skipped all your posts so I can farely express my opinion.
MB is everyone's dream right from day one. Too, I fell in love with this E500 when it was on sneak preview. I had catalogs, mags every where in the house... so I ordered mine even b4 the first one came out. The car was a piece of art but that didn't grow in me for long. The car continuously show failures one after another both electronics and mechanicals. I'm seeing/reading most all the failures that ppl post up here and not supprised so you just name it, I mostly have it all. The car is at its 68K miles and my recent repair wasn't cheap.
MB is everyone's dream right from day one. Too, I fell in love with this E500 when it was on sneak preview. I had catalogs, mags every where in the house... so I ordered mine even b4 the first one came out. The car was a piece of art but that didn't grow in me for long. The car continuously show failures one after another both electronics and mechanicals. I'm seeing/reading most all the failures that ppl post up here and not supprised so you just name it, I mostly have it all. The car is at its 68K miles and my recent repair wasn't cheap.
Super Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 514
Likes: 66
From: Naples, FL
2025 AMG CLE53, 2025 Range Rover P550E, 2025 Ford F150 Raptor
It's getting deep in here, I'm glad I'm in shorts.
My valley brother CE750 has a throbber for MBZ. He loves his vehicle, the brand name, and everything about it! He's a happy guy, giddy with joy and full of name brand pride. He has found the car that fits him. As a certain lawyer once said, "if the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit." Or as a certain rapper said, "If it's mo fly, you mus' buy." CE750 has found his buy. He's in.
What if we all only had $15,000 to purchase an automobile with. Used, new, whatever, purchase one before taxes that amounted to no more than $15K. What would we all buy? We'd all look at different things, research it differently, drive it differently, and expect different things.
Lexus builds a fine automobile. MBZ builds a fine automobile. So do Acura, Bimmer, and Infiniti. CE750 gets out his micrometer and measures the fit and finish, door gap, and researches the hell out of his safety ratings (and watches
) and finds that MBZ is his top rated product. His needs, his car.
momsph has stripped his final hundred dollar bill out of his wallet for his MBZ and is going towards a BMW. Cool, good for him. Each manufacturer builds lemons, Monday hangover cars or Friday gottagetouttahere cars. I wish him luck with his new BMW and pray he doesn't have any issues as he's had his fair share. Bimmers are rippin' cars.
I only wish I could afford a Patek watch...whatever the hell that is!
My valley brother CE750 has a throbber for MBZ. He loves his vehicle, the brand name, and everything about it! He's a happy guy, giddy with joy and full of name brand pride. He has found the car that fits him. As a certain lawyer once said, "if the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit." Or as a certain rapper said, "If it's mo fly, you mus' buy." CE750 has found his buy. He's in.
What if we all only had $15,000 to purchase an automobile with. Used, new, whatever, purchase one before taxes that amounted to no more than $15K. What would we all buy? We'd all look at different things, research it differently, drive it differently, and expect different things.
Lexus builds a fine automobile. MBZ builds a fine automobile. So do Acura, Bimmer, and Infiniti. CE750 gets out his micrometer and measures the fit and finish, door gap, and researches the hell out of his safety ratings (and watches
) and finds that MBZ is his top rated product. His needs, his car. momsph has stripped his final hundred dollar bill out of his wallet for his MBZ and is going towards a BMW. Cool, good for him. Each manufacturer builds lemons, Monday hangover cars or Friday gottagetouttahere cars. I wish him luck with his new BMW and pray he doesn't have any issues as he's had his fair share. Bimmers are rippin' cars.
I only wish I could afford a Patek watch...whatever the hell that is!
Thread Starter
Newbie
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 13
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From: SF, Cal
2007 S550
Thanks for all the feedbacks. Its funny how none of it is related to my concern. But anyways, I was offered a trade for my S500 w220 for a 2004 G270 CDi 2 door TANK with 3,500km. I am seriously considering the trade, coz the G looks really good. 
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Posts: 326
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From: USA
Multiple
Originally Posted by CE750
I guess maybe this stuff is subjective... I sat in a Lexus LS430 just yesterday, as well as an Acura TL and Infinity M45... just to make sure I wasn't missing something.. the plastics IN ALL of them were inferior in tactile feel for me (especially the stereo/HAVC controls) and the fit and finish (while by no means poor) wasn't as tight as the W211... let alone a W220.
There is more to quality than Reliability rjm, and that's what you keep missing with these debates.. A Patek Phillipe is far less reliable than a Seiko.. but WHY ON GOD's EARTH WOULD ANYONE WANT A SEIKO OVER A PATEK? - well, to tell time I guess with 100% reliability... but then it's just a matter of having the $ to keep the Patek running with $1000 services every 2-3 years.
There is more to quality than Reliability rjm, and that's what you keep missing with these debates.. A Patek Phillipe is far less reliable than a Seiko.. but WHY ON GOD's EARTH WOULD ANYONE WANT A SEIKO OVER A PATEK? - well, to tell time I guess with 100% reliability... but then it's just a matter of having the $ to keep the Patek running with $1000 services every 2-3 years.
Keep drinking that Kool-Aid....Mercedes loves guys like you who will ignore their faults and shortcomings and buy their products regardless of poor quality and shoddy workmanship. You pay about $15,000 for that tarnished star on your hood....enjoy it....and keep drinking that Kool-Aid.
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From: FL410
'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
PHXATC and others... to be fair, I am very critical of MB in some areas.. As Hell ona Harley can tell you.. I hate their nickel and dime options list, and how the give you vinyl seats as standard on a $53000 car.. and how the NAV is optional on the same.. but as far as build quality and overall appeal... I would only consider an exotic to replace this car (Rolls comes to mind).. but I would never be in a position to spend that kind of money on a car.
rjm... believe me when I say this. If that car had to go into the shop every 6 months for a repair (under warranty), I would still prefer it to a Toyota product.. There is just no appeal to me from the Japanese cars.. If by the time my car gets to 50,000 miles and it's a complete disaster in terms of reliability, I'll trade it in for another GERMAN car.. either another MB, or a BMW or Audi... but I can't get into the rice burners.. sorry.
rjm... believe me when I say this. If that car had to go into the shop every 6 months for a repair (under warranty), I would still prefer it to a Toyota product.. There is just no appeal to me from the Japanese cars.. If by the time my car gets to 50,000 miles and it's a complete disaster in terms of reliability, I'll trade it in for another GERMAN car.. either another MB, or a BMW or Audi... but I can't get into the rice burners.. sorry.
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From: Salt Lake City (but not Morm)
2003 E55 & 2014 GL550
Benz was #1 ranked in quality in 1990....she'll get there again.
Just like with any person/business/marriage.....just in a slump right now. Now, it's not gonna be overnight, but we'll get there. I always give the advantage to the inventor of the automobile.
Just like with any person/business/marriage.....just in a slump right now. Now, it's not gonna be overnight, but we'll get there. I always give the advantage to the inventor of the automobile.
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From: Ohio
ML-350, Maserati Quattroporte
I need in on this one. Feel free to flame and criticize. I too once dreamed of MB ownership. With my 1st E320 wagon I let the service issues and minor glitches slip by. With my S430 I started to realize that my wifes Volvo and Saab dealers did as well with service and her cars had fewer problems, but hell, I had a Benz etc, etc. With my E500 I can't even remember what all of it's problems were. None huge, but the sum added up. I have posted them all. After several MB cars the pride,image and luster have faded. Why is that a problem for everyone around here? It's subjective,emotional and our right as disenchanted owners. I don't want to detract from anyone's experience. I just want to share my opinion for those out there lurking the boards thinking about getting a new car. I have a 2006 A8L on order now because I look forward to something new and because MB as a brand has not "captured" me the way some are. I'm pretty sure I will end up back in a Mercedes after the Audi, but boy I'm looking forward to the break. Everyone on this board reads the news papers and watches the news. There is no secret that MB dragged Crystler down with it's quality problems. I look forward to comming back when they fix it.
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Multiple
Originally Posted by Jakpro1
Benz was #1 ranked in quality in 1990....she'll get there again. Just like with any person/business/marriage.....just in a slump right now. Now, it's not gonna be overnight, but we'll get there.
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From: USA
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Originally Posted by CE750
If by the time my car gets to 50,000 miles and it's a complete disaster in terms of reliability, I'll trade it in for another GERMAN car.. either another MB, or a BMW or Audi... but I can't get into the rice burners.. sorry.
Last edited by rjm; Sep 14, 2005 at 10:28 AM.
