Why are MB vehicles so (too??) expensive? And, no, this is not a "troll" post. (more)
11-27-2005, 11:37 PM
#76
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: FL410
Posts: 4,968
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
Originally Posted by rjm
LOL! This is the biggest piece of baloney I have ever read on an automotive forum.
I seem to recall we agreed to stick to facts, and observations, and avoid ad hominem and other forms of bandwidth waste.
11-28-2005, 01:30 AM
#77
Originally Posted by benzmodz
Why does everyone blame the car. It would be like blaming the fork in a bad restaurant.
It's your fault! ALL YOUR FAULT!
My point sucks doesn't it? So does yalls. We're beating a dead horse.
11-28-2005, 08:09 AM
#78
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Multiple
Originally Posted by CE750
Good humor, but nevertheless, the MB is better a better built car.
As you said in your post:
CE750 Wrote:
"I seem to recall we agreed to stick to facts, and observations, and avoid ad hominem and other forms of bandwidth waste."
11-28-2005, 10:41 AM
#80
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: FL410
Posts: 4,968
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
Originally Posted by PHXATC
This is like the endless tennis volley...my neck hurts now. 
11-28-2005, 03:38 PM
#81
Super Member
I agree with JWS3. What he is saying is that he does not see a $30K difference in PERCEIVED VALUE. Neither do I. My daily drive is 2004 G35X. I like the way the car handles, acceleration, and braking. Sure, it does not have as many gadgets as my E500; neither as quiet as my E, but I do not see the $30K plus difference in price either. The PERCEIVED VALUE of MB to me is definitely not $30k more!
Let me give you another good example. I am a audiophile. I own a pair of Thiel CS 2.4, which retail for about $4500, a relatively low cost speaker in the world of high-end speakers. There are high end speakers that cost well over $25K to $80K. Of course, the sound may be somewhat better than my Thiel, and the finish of these speakers are breathless to look at. But are they 10 times better than my speakers? I do not see it in my PERCEIVED VALUE. Obviously, the people who pay for these speakers at these exotic prices do not agree with me and they would vehemently defend their purchase decisions when challenged. My point is it is the PERCEIVED VALUE that each of us ultimately decides whether the prices of certain goods are overpriced. These are very subjective matters. But if MB continues with its reliability problem, then the perceived value would become less and less to most of us.
Let me give you another good example. I am a audiophile. I own a pair of Thiel CS 2.4, which retail for about $4500, a relatively low cost speaker in the world of high-end speakers. There are high end speakers that cost well over $25K to $80K. Of course, the sound may be somewhat better than my Thiel, and the finish of these speakers are breathless to look at. But are they 10 times better than my speakers? I do not see it in my PERCEIVED VALUE. Obviously, the people who pay for these speakers at these exotic prices do not agree with me and they would vehemently defend their purchase decisions when challenged. My point is it is the PERCEIVED VALUE that each of us ultimately decides whether the prices of certain goods are overpriced. These are very subjective matters. But if MB continues with its reliability problem, then the perceived value would become less and less to most of us.
11-28-2005, 04:17 PM
#82
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 3,220
Likes: 0
Received 9 Likes
on
6 Posts
W203 slightly modified
Originally Posted by ricky.agrawal
My mistake.
It's your fault! ALL YOUR FAULT!
My point sucks doesn't it? So does yalls. We're beating a dead horse.
It's your fault! ALL YOUR FAULT!
My point sucks doesn't it? So does yalls. We're beating a dead horse.
11-28-2005, 04:23 PM
#83
Originally Posted by benzmodz
Seems to me y'all need to find a better technician if that iron horse of yours spends so much time in the air.
It's okay though, just give it time and Mercedes will bring it around.
11-28-2005, 04:32 PM
#84
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 5,517
Likes: 0
Received 9 Likes
on
6 Posts
2011 E350 Cabriolet..White and Almond Mocha
Originally Posted by Flash Gordon
. My point is it is the PERCEIVED VALUE that each of us ultimately decides whether the prices of certain goods are overpriced. These are very subjective matters. But if MB continues with its reliability problem, then the perceived value would become less and less to most of us.
However, your last line could also be written in a more positive note..."But if Mercedes continues with its positive progress in returning to the quality levels that is it known so well for, then the perceived value will become more and more to most of us." I think this is a valid rewrite based on the quality levels of the 2004-2006 models over the early 2000-2003 period. My later produced 2003 E had no problems to speak of and it appears this trend continues. The early W220 had serious quality problems so I understand until the 2003 facelift and have improved since then. My 2006 is in my estimation a solid, traditional MB built car and I had a lot of the so-called "tanks" built in the '70's and 80's. I prefer to look at the positive future direction of MB rather than the darker days of this short lived down period in their long history of being the quality luxury car maker of the world.
11-28-2005, 05:18 PM
#85
Newbie
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mercedes has some good designs. However, some parts that they design are overly complicated. A lot of their parts are overpriced. You have to weigh the pros and cons. In my opinion, if they keep doing this, the equation will change and I won't get a Mercedes. For now, the equation is that it is a slightly better car at a somewhat higher cost than it should be.
Some of their designs make it difficult for the do-it-yourselfer. People who work on their own cars understand the design and may appreciate the car. I work on my car a bit. However, I tend to work on my other (non-Mercedes) car because the Mercedes is just too user unfriendly and jam packed together. My other car is not Japanese. It's European but slightly more user friendly.
Some of their designs make it difficult for the do-it-yourselfer. People who work on their own cars understand the design and may appreciate the car. I work on my car a bit. However, I tend to work on my other (non-Mercedes) car because the Mercedes is just too user unfriendly and jam packed together. My other car is not Japanese. It's European but slightly more user friendly.
11-28-2005, 06:57 PM
#86
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2004 E500
EXACTLY- Sums up my thoughts
[QUOTE=S2016] For now, the equation is that it is a slightly better car at a somewhat higher cost than it should be.
QUOTE]
This is the problem--a slightly better car for a dispoportionately higher cost. Every small increment comes at an ever steeping price. At what point is it "just not worth it"?
And, yes, to answer another poster-- I get the "watch" comparison. But, watches at least to my limited knowledge depreciate like a stone off a cliff as do MB cars as of late. My issue w/ MB is that the spread between its products and the rest has narrowed considerably and then some, while quality/reliability issues have gotten worse.
QUOTE]
This is the problem--a slightly better car for a dispoportionately higher cost. Every small increment comes at an ever steeping price. At what point is it "just not worth it"?
And, yes, to answer another poster-- I get the "watch" comparison. But, watches at least to my limited knowledge depreciate like a stone off a cliff as do MB cars as of late. My issue w/ MB is that the spread between its products and the rest has narrowed considerably and then some, while quality/reliability issues have gotten worse.
11-28-2005, 10:59 PM
#87
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: FL410
Posts: 4,968
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
[QUOTE=JWS3]
This is true, in that a Toyota 25 years ago didn't dare to compare to a Mercedes, even a lowly 240D... but this is not so much because MB did anything wrong, as more to do with Toyota copying MB, and doing a lot right.. still, the handling, and driving experience of an MB is significantly better, or so do many experts (and consumers).. read these reviews on Edmonds.com, especially note the 9.2 vs 9.6 rating given by owners of the S430 vs LS430... to compare Apples to Apples.
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/merc...chlanding.html
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/lexu...chlanding.html
Originally Posted by S2016
For now, the equation is that it is a slightly better car at a somewhat higher cost than it should be.
QUOTE]
This is the problem--a slightly better car for a dispoportionately higher cost. Every small increment comes at an ever steeping price. At what point is it "just not worth it"?
And, yes, to answer another poster-- I get the "watch" comparison. But, watches at least to my limited knowledge depreciate like a stone off a cliff as do MB cars as of late. My issue w/ MB is that the spread between its products and the rest has narrowed considerably and then some, while quality/reliability issues have gotten worse.
QUOTE]
This is the problem--a slightly better car for a dispoportionately higher cost. Every small increment comes at an ever steeping price. At what point is it "just not worth it"?
And, yes, to answer another poster-- I get the "watch" comparison. But, watches at least to my limited knowledge depreciate like a stone off a cliff as do MB cars as of late. My issue w/ MB is that the spread between its products and the rest has narrowed considerably and then some, while quality/reliability issues have gotten worse.
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/merc...chlanding.html
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/lexu...chlanding.html
11-28-2005, 11:05 PM
#88
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: FL410
Posts: 4,968
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
Originally Posted by Nevada Jack
I prefer to look at the positive future direction of MB rather than the darker days of this short lived down period in their long history of being the quality luxury car maker of the world.
Again, I'm amazed at the over all quality of this car, even the hardware used in such hard to notice areas like the door latch, and shrouds around exhaust parts are very impressive.
11-28-2005, 11:07 PM
#89
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,015
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2005 C320wz
Mercedes can't win. If they lowered the prices of their cars and sold them for about the same prices as Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura are charging for their automobiles, some people would say those cars are not "real" Mercedes. Case in point, the C-class sedans.
Last edited by mick1; 11-28-2005 at 11:14 PM.
11-28-2005, 11:15 PM
#90
Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Temecula, CA
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by mick1
Mercedes can't win. If they lowered the prices of their cars and sold them for about the same prices as Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura are charging for their automobiles, some people would say those cars are not "real" Mercedes. Case in point, the C-class sedans.
11-28-2005, 11:49 PM
#91
Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
08 E320 Bluetec
JWS3, if you think the Honda, Subaru and Hyundai make you wonder then you better not look at Acura!
That's what I have now and my almost 4 year old TL is still in new condition. No squeaks, bumps or rattles and it rides just as good as it did from day 1.
The Benz is one of the few brands I feel is nicer . . . but there is no way it even comes close if reliability is important. Say what you want about statistics but most Japanese models . . and even some American models blow away MB when you look at realiablity. These are proven facts.
If it wasn't for wanting a Diesel car, I would be buying another Acura and that is mainly because of what JWS3 is saying . . . where is the 20 or 30 grand going? If I didn't care about money, and had lots of it to burn, then no problem. I would own one of each. I DO like MB !!
The reason the opinions in this thread differ so wildly is simple human nature (and blind love). If you love your car, you will forgive minor problems. Also, if you haven't experienced any problems, you will dismiss those who have. However, if you can take a step back and look at it objectively, you will agree that MB's have a heafty price tag and a lot of what you are paying extra for is just to own one . . . . Status, as someone put it.
All that being said, I am perfectly willing to trade my Acura for a new MB but I know I'm going to pay out the butt for it and I know it "might" not be as reliable. But I still WANT ONE!!
That's what I have now and my almost 4 year old TL is still in new condition. No squeaks, bumps or rattles and it rides just as good as it did from day 1.
The Benz is one of the few brands I feel is nicer . . . but there is no way it even comes close if reliability is important. Say what you want about statistics but most Japanese models . . and even some American models blow away MB when you look at realiablity. These are proven facts.
If it wasn't for wanting a Diesel car, I would be buying another Acura and that is mainly because of what JWS3 is saying . . . where is the 20 or 30 grand going? If I didn't care about money, and had lots of it to burn, then no problem. I would own one of each. I DO like MB !!
The reason the opinions in this thread differ so wildly is simple human nature (and blind love). If you love your car, you will forgive minor problems. Also, if you haven't experienced any problems, you will dismiss those who have. However, if you can take a step back and look at it objectively, you will agree that MB's have a heafty price tag and a lot of what you are paying extra for is just to own one . . . . Status, as someone put it.
All that being said, I am perfectly willing to trade my Acura for a new MB but I know I'm going to pay out the butt for it and I know it "might" not be as reliable. But I still WANT ONE!!
Last edited by Frugal1; 11-29-2005 at 02:07 PM.
11-29-2005, 12:19 AM
#92
Super Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Virginia
Posts: 551
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
2005 Carlsson CD32 E320 CDI Inline-6
I'll buy a Honda Accord, or Hyundai
When they build a top-notch, real wheel drive, diesel car that weighs 4000 lbs and has an iron-block staight-6. And can be crashed at 80MPH without scattering like a jet crash.
11-29-2005, 12:47 AM
#93
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: FL410
Posts: 4,968
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
Originally Posted by cdiken
When they build a top-notch, real wheel drive, diesel car that weighs 4000 lbs and has an iron-block staight-6. And can be crashed at 80MPH without scattering like a jet crash.
11-29-2005, 07:56 AM
#94
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Multiple
Originally Posted by Frugal1
The reason the opinions in this thread differ so wildly is simple human nature (and blind love). If you love your car, you will forgive minor problems. Also, if you haven't experienced any problems, you will dismiss those who have. However, if you can take a step back and look at it objectively, you will agree that MB's have a heafty price tag and a lot of what you are paying extra for is just to own one . . . . Status, as someone put it.
BINGO! You hit it on the head! An excellent summation of the entire thread.
11-29-2005, 08:23 AM
#95
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Multiple
[QUOTE=CE750]
You shouldn't be referring to these consumer reviews or you will upset your friends by giving them some credence and validity. Nevada Jack said all these consumer reviews are baloney and meaningless. You can't put any confidence in consumer reviews like Edmonds.com or Consumer Reports, or J.D. Powers Automotive Reviews, and the car editor's reviews you read in Car and Driver, Motor Trend, and Automotive Review, and similar industry magazines are worthless. Of course, that is just one man's opinion.
I think if you will go through Edmunds.com and compare all models of Lexus to all models of Mercedes-Benz, you will see a wide disparity in favor of the Lexus products.
Originally Posted by JWS3
...still, the handling, and driving experience of an MB is significantly better, or so do many experts (and consumers).. read these reviews on Edmonds.com, especially note the 9.2 vs 9.6 rating given by owners of the S430 vs LS430... to compare Apples to Apples.
I think if you will go through Edmunds.com and compare all models of Lexus to all models of Mercedes-Benz, you will see a wide disparity in favor of the Lexus products.
11-29-2005, 09:17 AM
#96
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Queen Creek, AZ
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by rjm
I think if you will go through Edmunds.com and compare all models of Lexus to all models of Mercedes-Benz, you will see a wide disparity in favor of the Lexus products.
That will get another 2 pages of discussion and 40 links!
11-29-2005, 09:23 AM
#97
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 5,517
Likes: 0
Received 9 Likes
on
6 Posts
2011 E350 Cabriolet..White and Almond Mocha
Originally Posted by PHXATC
That will get another 2 pages of discussion and 40 links!
11-29-2005, 01:25 PM
#98
Senior Member
Wow! So much emotion from a thread. My suggestion is enjoy the car knowing we all probably paid more than we could have on another car.
RJM, I have been following your banter on these boards for some time...why are you still here? What positivity or constructive input do you offer? We welcome all input but I think you mostly enjoy "stirring the pot". Enjoy your Lexus and contribute to their forums as well.
Jay
RJM, I have been following your banter on these boards for some time...why are you still here? What positivity or constructive input do you offer? We welcome all input but I think you mostly enjoy "stirring the pot". Enjoy your Lexus and contribute to their forums as well.
Jay
11-29-2005, 04:05 PM
#99
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: FL410
Posts: 4,968
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
[QUOTE=rjm]
You shouldn't be referring to these consumer reviews or you will upset your friends by giving them some credence and validity. Nevada Jack said all these consumer reviews are baloney and meaningless. You can't put any confidence in consumer reviews like Edmonds.com or Consumer Reports, or J.D. Powers Automotive Reviews, and the car editor's reviews you read in Car and Driver, Motor Trend, and Automotive Review, and similar industry magazines are worthless. Of course, that is just one man's opinion.
I think if you will go through Edmunds.com and compare all models of Lexus to all models of Mercedes-Benz, you will see a wide disparity in favor of the Lexus products.
Actually I have... and the only place I find the Lexus to excell is the IS300 over the C350.. and even then it's marginal.
The S>LS - the 2007 promises to even impress more.
The E>ES
especially in two areas... driving experience, and safety..
Originally Posted by CE750
You shouldn't be referring to these consumer reviews or you will upset your friends by giving them some credence and validity. Nevada Jack said all these consumer reviews are baloney and meaningless. You can't put any confidence in consumer reviews like Edmonds.com or Consumer Reports, or J.D. Powers Automotive Reviews, and the car editor's reviews you read in Car and Driver, Motor Trend, and Automotive Review, and similar industry magazines are worthless. Of course, that is just one man's opinion.
I think if you will go through Edmunds.com and compare all models of Lexus to all models of Mercedes-Benz, you will see a wide disparity in favor of the Lexus products.
The S>LS - the 2007 promises to even impress more.
The E>ES
especially in two areas... driving experience, and safety..
11-29-2005, 05:07 PM
#100
Super Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 560
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Here is what struck me- Yes, MB is better, but the difference in materials/engineering seems to only account for perhaps 5-10K. Where did the other 20 go?? Profit? Huge labor costs?
Again, I am not here to bust on MB or re-start the Lexus/MB debate. Instead, I remain stunned by how much better the others have come while MB hasn't done as much. Never, ever thought I'd actually have a thought cross my mind as I drove a Subaru "Damn, trhis thing isn;t all that far from my Benz, why did I pay 2X as much for perhaps a 20% difference? Believe me, I didn't want to have those thoughts- just couldn't help it. My wife asked my if I was out in the cold too long when I mentioned my thoughts to her. SHe was also hopeful that my fascination w/ expensive cars would come down a notch or two!"
Well I understand yoour thoughts perfectly, because i've had them myself. In fact, I BOUGHT a Subaru Outback for the wife instead of an ml or an x5 for that very reason. Now make no mistake, there still isn't a Japanese car that can give you the ride quality of a Benz ( or bmw or audi) in a sedan, but in the grocery/kid hauler why pay more? I have to also agree that in the next 25 years with the advent of great cars from Korea and China this competition will only intensify. This is all a good thing for us consumers.
By the way whoever posted that story about the acura tl...terrific car. If they ever make a rear wheel drive out of that thing with its current interior it will rule the entry level luxury class. Nonetheless, it and the RL still are not there in the driving experience department. I have little doubt that they will get there someday soon.......
Again, I am not here to bust on MB or re-start the Lexus/MB debate. Instead, I remain stunned by how much better the others have come while MB hasn't done as much. Never, ever thought I'd actually have a thought cross my mind as I drove a Subaru "Damn, trhis thing isn;t all that far from my Benz, why did I pay 2X as much for perhaps a 20% difference? Believe me, I didn't want to have those thoughts- just couldn't help it. My wife asked my if I was out in the cold too long when I mentioned my thoughts to her. SHe was also hopeful that my fascination w/ expensive cars would come down a notch or two!"
Well I understand yoour thoughts perfectly, because i've had them myself. In fact, I BOUGHT a Subaru Outback for the wife instead of an ml or an x5 for that very reason. Now make no mistake, there still isn't a Japanese car that can give you the ride quality of a Benz ( or bmw or audi) in a sedan, but in the grocery/kid hauler why pay more? I have to also agree that in the next 25 years with the advent of great cars from Korea and China this competition will only intensify. This is all a good thing for us consumers.
By the way whoever posted that story about the acura tl...terrific car. If they ever make a rear wheel drive out of that thing with its current interior it will rule the entry level luxury class. Nonetheless, it and the RL still are not there in the driving experience department. I have little doubt that they will get there someday soon.......
