Why are MB vehicles so (too??) expensive? And, no, this is not a "troll" post. (more)
12-01-2005, 06:08 PM
#151
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2004 E500
I was unaware that "the internet" suffices as an excuse
Originally Posted by PHXATC
Get over your bad self dude, it's the internet!
If you get your feelings hurt that easily, you won't last around here too long.
You aren't getting an apology from me as requested through a PM. If you think I called you a liar or fraud, check your facts bucko, as I never said that. The word that I used was "TROLL."
If you want drama, go somewhere else.
If you get your feelings hurt that easily, you won't last around here too long.
You aren't getting an apology from me as requested through a PM. If you think I called you a liar or fraud, check your facts bucko, as I never said that. The word that I used was "TROLL."
If you want drama, go somewhere else.
And, for the record, my "feelings" aren't hurt. I simply would rather not see my credibility needlessly put into question.
12-01-2005, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by JWS3
for what would ordinarily be deemed less than polite conduct, especially on an upper end car board. While you did not use the words "fraud" or "liar", the overall tenor and wording of your post certainly so indicated.
And, for the record, my "feelings" aren't hurt. I simply would rather not see my credibility needlessly put into question.
And, for the record, my "feelings" aren't hurt. I simply would rather not see my credibility needlessly put into question.
Here's the deal, "upper end car board," boating boards, off road boards, big truck boards, I'm on them all. The only way you can gain "credibility," if that actually exists in a virtual world of the web, is to post some decent, reality based, facts with believable goods in the words. I never questioned your "credibility" at all. I said one word...troll.
Don't even start with the "tone and tenor" of my post. You wouldn't want to go there for a second.
Here's a tip, begin your sentences with a capital letter, that will increase your virtual credibility.
"Coincidental," "neat," "troll," and "funny" are my strongest words. Man, the power of my pen has strengthened lately. I better be careful.
Have a pleasant day.
12-01-2005, 06:48 PM
#153
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2004 E500
I am curious as to one thing:
Originally Posted by PHXATC
Here's the deal, "upper end car board," boating boards, off road boards, big truck boards, I'm on them all. The only way you can gain "credibility," if that actually exists in a virtual world of the web, is to post some decent, reality based, facts with believable goods in the words. I never questioned your "credibility" at all. I said one word...troll.
Don't even start with the "tone and tenor" of my post. You wouldn't want to go there for a second.
Here's a tip, begin your sentences with a capital letter, that will increase your virtual credibility.
"Coincidental," "neat," "troll," and "funny" are my strongest words. Man, the power of my pen has strengthened lately. I better be careful.
Have a pleasant day.
Don't even start with the "tone and tenor" of my post. You wouldn't want to go there for a second.
Here's a tip, begin your sentences with a capital letter, that will increase your virtual credibility.
"Coincidental," "neat," "troll," and "funny" are my strongest words. Man, the power of my pen has strengthened lately. I better be careful.
Have a pleasant day.
You are right about my typing, though. It stinks. Too used to dictating things. My handwriting is even worse.
Lets just put this to rest. I am not the person who put my original post onto the Lexus board. In fact, its not a bad idea. I just don't care for being thought of as a "troll". My original post here was and is sincere. After having the occasion to drive various cars I'd never consider I was very surprised at the deminimus the real word differences were despite a +/- 30K difference in price. In short I didn't see twice the car despite twice the price. More like 20% more car for 100% more price. Still can't believe I actually thought that & had to almost drag myself kicking & screaming away from the conclusion.
Let the discussions & debate resume.
12-01-2005, 10:07 PM
#154
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JWS3
That is a very nice and smart question you brought forward bro. Actually many of the car buyers today had noticed that the difference between MB and other competitors had dramatically droped. As you said Hondas, Hyandais, Acuras are almost the same thing as MB but cost 50% less. The answer to this question is easy-TIME. Early in its years MB developed leading qualities, and technologies and they were far ahead of the competition by a mile stone. Now, however, all other companies had learned all the thing MB were so popular, and are now able to produce the same technologies as MB. That is why the difference don't seem big, and they arent. There are very few insignificant options, and technologies that only MB has, but they are insufficient. The Pride, and the quality bar that MB developed long time ago, didn't go away from them and that is why they still charge high $. People pay just for that MB sign you know, and a little bit more in terms of options, materials, safety, design etc. But those differences are extremely small for the money. Like you said MB didn't go down, nor did it stay at the same level, they progressed it is just that others catched up. The reason they catched up was that extremely huge gap between MB and other manufacturers back in the day, as MB were already at a very high level and few things could be changed, (therefore slowing the progress movement) but all other had a long way to go in order to get up to that high MB level guess what now they did catch them, and now both MB and all others are almost moving together in technological part. From my point of view MB won't be able to increase the gap, nor it will loose it, I think it will stay the same causing a very small if at all difference between MB and all others. So people basically are paying for the name, and for the little advantages MB has right now, and it is defently ins't worth the money. That is why MB is the car for the rich, more today that it ever was before.
P.S I guess you understand, a little bit what I was trying to say....
That is a very nice and smart question you brought forward bro. Actually many of the car buyers today had noticed that the difference between MB and other competitors had dramatically droped. As you said Hondas, Hyandais, Acuras are almost the same thing as MB but cost 50% less. The answer to this question is easy-TIME. Early in its years MB developed leading qualities, and technologies and they were far ahead of the competition by a mile stone. Now, however, all other companies had learned all the thing MB were so popular, and are now able to produce the same technologies as MB. That is why the difference don't seem big, and they arent. There are very few insignificant options, and technologies that only MB has, but they are insufficient. The Pride, and the quality bar that MB developed long time ago, didn't go away from them and that is why they still charge high $. People pay just for that MB sign you know, and a little bit more in terms of options, materials, safety, design etc. But those differences are extremely small for the money. Like you said MB didn't go down, nor did it stay at the same level, they progressed it is just that others catched up. The reason they catched up was that extremely huge gap between MB and other manufacturers back in the day, as MB were already at a very high level and few things could be changed, (therefore slowing the progress movement) but all other had a long way to go in order to get up to that high MB level guess what now they did catch them, and now both MB and all others are almost moving together in technological part. From my point of view MB won't be able to increase the gap, nor it will loose it, I think it will stay the same causing a very small if at all difference between MB and all others. So people basically are paying for the name, and for the little advantages MB has right now, and it is defently ins't worth the money. That is why MB is the car for the rich, more today that it ever was before.
P.S I guess you understand, a little bit what I was trying to say....
12-01-2005, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by CRAZY-MERC-FAN
JWS3
That is why MB is the car for the rich, more today that it ever was before.
That is why MB is the car for the rich, more today that it ever was before.
I'm not rich and I own a MB. I'm 26 years young and manage my money well.
But then again, maybe that's why I have an E350 and not a CL65?
12-01-2005, 10:54 PM
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2005 C320wz
Originally Posted by AJU_E350
I'm not rich and I own a MB. I'm 26 years young and manage my money well.
But then again, maybe that's why I have an E350 and not a CL65?
But then again, maybe that's why I have an E350 and not a CL65?
Click the link below and enter your annual income to see how rich you are compared to other people in the world
http://www.globalrichlist.com/
12-01-2005, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by mick1
Click the link below and enter your annual income to see how rich you are compared to other people in the world
http://www.globalrichlist.com/
http://www.globalrichlist.com/
THIS IS WHAT IT TOLD ME.
__________________________________________________ __________
Sorry, if you earn less than $90 a year we are unable to calculate your position on the richlist.
If this is the case you would be one of the billions of people who earn less than $2 a day. Typically you would also not have access to a computer or an Internet connection.
If you are earning less than $90 a year it¹d be unfair to ask you to donate money to Care International, if however, you actually earn more than this it may be worth re-calculating your position
12-01-2005, 11:24 PM
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2005 C320wz
Originally Posted by AJU_E350
THIS IS WHAT IT TOLD ME.
__________________________________________________ __________
Sorry, if you earn less than $90 a year we are unable to calculate your position on the richlist.
If this is the case you would be one of the billions of people who earn less than $2 a day. Typically you would also not have access to a computer or an Internet connection.
If you are earning less than $90 a year it¹d be unfair to ask you to donate money to Care International, if however, you actually earn more than this it may be worth re-calculating your position
__________________________________________________ __________
Sorry, if you earn less than $90 a year we are unable to calculate your position on the richlist.
If this is the case you would be one of the billions of people who earn less than $2 a day. Typically you would also not have access to a computer or an Internet connection.
If you are earning less than $90 a year it¹d be unfair to ask you to donate money to Care International, if however, you actually earn more than this it may be worth re-calculating your position
12-01-2005, 11:40 PM
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Check out the new sedan for Hyundai
http://www.hyundaiusa.com/vehicle/av...oon/azera.aspx
More interior volume than Toyota Avalon, Mercedes-Benz S class, or BMW 760li PLus more standard feature than any vehicle in its class, plus a stunning starting price of only 25k!!!! Koreans are attacking!!!!
http://www.hyundaiusa.com/vehicle/av...oon/azera.aspx
More interior volume than Toyota Avalon, Mercedes-Benz S class, or BMW 760li PLus more standard feature than any vehicle in its class, plus a stunning starting price of only 25k!!!! Koreans are attacking!!!!
12-02-2005, 12:52 AM
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'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
Originally Posted by PHXATC
Here's the deal, "upper end car board," boating boards, off road boards, big truck boards, I'm on them all. The only way you can gain "credibility," if that actually exists in a virtual world of the web, is to post some decent, reality based, facts with believable goods in the words. I never questioned your "credibility" at all. I said one word...troll.
Don't even start with the "tone and tenor" of my post. You wouldn't want to go there for a second.
Here's a tip, begin your sentences with a capital letter, that will increase your virtual credibility.
"Coincidental," "neat," "troll," and "funny" are my strongest words. Man, the power of my pen has strengthened lately. I better be careful.
Have a pleasant day.
Don't even start with the "tone and tenor" of my post. You wouldn't want to go there for a second.
Here's a tip, begin your sentences with a capital letter, that will increase your virtual credibility.
"Coincidental," "neat," "troll," and "funny" are my strongest words. Man, the power of my pen has strengthened lately. I better be careful.
Have a pleasant day.
I think you are being killed as the "messenger" in this case.
Don't let JWS3 sweat you man, I would have posted the same thing had I come across it.
The interesting thing will be to see if in fact it's not him, then who is it?
12-02-2005, 12:54 AM
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'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
Originally Posted by mick1
Click the link below and enter your annual income to see how rich you are compared to other people in the world
http://www.globalrichlist.com/
http://www.globalrichlist.com/
You are in the top 0.151% richest people in the world.
There are 5,990,917,435 people poorer than you
There are 5,990,917,435 people poorer than you
12-02-2005, 07:48 AM
#163
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2004 E500
Well... Upon reflection, perhaps I did take a bit too much offence (m)
Originally Posted by CE750
I must say, I've never seen you get this bent before.... surely JWS3 has taken this too seriously, especially if he wants you to apologize for simply uncovering the thread.. that he either did or (likely) didn't write in the first place..
I think you are being killed as the "messenger" in this case.
Don't let JWS3 sweat you man, I would have posted the same thing had I come across it.
The interesting thing will be to see if in fact it's not him, then who is it?
I think you are being killed as the "messenger" in this case.
Don't let JWS3 sweat you man, I would have posted the same thing had I come across it.
The interesting thing will be to see if in fact it's not him, then who is it?
In the end, posting the question on the Lexus board was an interesting idea. What I objected to was the person making it look like I was a roving board troll.
Oh--and if any of the internet geniouses here can help ID the individual I invite your assistance.
Jim
12-02-2005, 08:16 AM
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Multiple
Originally Posted by JWS3
Oh--and if any of the internet geniouses here can help ID the individual I invite your assistance.Jim
12-02-2005, 08:47 AM
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Here's a billion dollars worth of ideas for somebody ---> somehow make the internet show an emotion (smilies don't count) for posting on forums.
JSW3, you are good to go. At the very least, some hearty conversation and discussion about MB occurred and that's why we are all here.
CE750, you know us ATCers, we have all that pent up aggression and 'tude that we have to blow off somehow. 
JSW3, you are good to go. At the very least, some hearty conversation and discussion about MB occurred and that's why we are all here.
CE750, you know us ATCers, we have all that pent up aggression and 'tude that we have to blow off somehow.
12-02-2005, 08:52 AM
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2004 E500
Thanks- I sent a msg to the lexus webmaster (m)
Originally Posted by rjm
It would be quite easy for the webmaster to identify the IP of the originating computer and trace it down to the city and state and the specific location where it originated. It would probably be quite obvious who posted it.
12-02-2005, 07:25 PM
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'03 E39 530I
True talk right there.
Originally Posted by JimPurdy
Repairability is another reason I am willing to pay extra for an MB. If you look at the construction techniques of many of the less expensive cars you can see how they are assembled with pop-rivets and other fasteners that are not removable. The cars end up being disposable when anything needs to be replaced. A friend of mine who has driven MB for 25 years says that if you can't easily take an MB apart, you are going about the wrong. Most MB parts are removable and replacable where you can't do that with other cars. This type of engineering and assembly does cost more but allows the car to be maintained for many years of service.
12-02-2005, 07:36 PM
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'03 E39 530I
The original Z was 'influenced' by Porsche design.
Originally Posted by CE750
Japanese do very well when they don't try to copy the Germans... they're good at making cars, as the Z can attest.. but they are no got at making German substitutes IMHO.
12-02-2005, 09:01 PM
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'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
Originally Posted by PHXATC
CE750, you know us ATCers, we have all that pent up aggression and 'tude that we have to blow off somehow.
I knew a guy in (TRACON) Atlanta... we all called him "smily" cause he literally never smiled.. and spoke in the most monotone voice you ever heard, even when he was slammed..., I visited the TRACON and saw him as he he sat over the scope with one hand supporting his head looking board while Atlanta Approach was getting traffic from all corners and weather was popping up everywhere! Never lost his cool, except once I recall when a woman got on the radio with a *****y tone and corrected him when he call her "sir".... man you should have "heard the silence" on the airwaves when he got done with her!
I guess everyone has to vent sometime.. heck, I sure have done it!
12-01-2013, 12:27 AM
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2014 Mercedes-Benz E550 4Matic, 2010 Subaru Legacy 3.6R
Old post, but the question is still pertinent. As a 2014 E550 owner, I am a bit shocked at the ill-considered cost-cutting. There is, for example, no convenient overhead holder for the sunglasses. The carpets are thinner than cheap motel carpets. Road noise isolation is inferior to the four-cylinder Camry I rented for a Pennsylvania trip. None of these measures have prevented the car from being costly. Part of the cost is due to the excellent V8 engine, good transmission and, on my car at least, high quality body assembly with small and even gaps between doors and body. Still, there is a large disparity between the cost and quality and I suspect that the South Koreans will be making successful forays into Mercedes-Benz sales in coming years. The forthcoming Kia K900 looks like an excellent effort.
OK, guys-- Serious question from an enthusiast and not troll bait. But first, a bit of background.
I've driven German cars exclusively for the last 10 years, including various BMW models and now an E500. I consider myself a real car nut and will pay for quality and superior driving ability/experience. The only non German cars in the household were two Jeep GCs and now a Toyota Sienna minivan, none of which are even remotely intended to compete with the Germans.
Here is where my question comes from: I have for various reasons recently driven several cars which I normally wouldn't even drive or even look at. I've recently driven a few Subarus, a Honda Accord and even a new Hyundai Sonata, all of which cost 40-60 percent (or more) less than my E.
Let me be blunt- I was SHOCKED at how narrow the differences were between the herd and the E. Yes, the E ultimately drove better was and a bit smoother,especially with the V8 and to my eyes has a more refined interior, but I could not OBJECTIVELY justify the 50% or more price difference. I just did not see how the improvements were worth 25-35K more. 5-10K, yes. But 30+?? No, at least not when using pure logic w/o emotion. The Subarus (Legacy & Outback) models were especially surprising. With the turbo or 6cyl motors they would spank a 350 4matic and give an E500 a real race for the money. Plus, their AWD systems are arguably superior and, get this-- there is a huge pano roof available!! Geez-- even the Hyundai drove pretty good and wasn't horrible to look it. Too bad we're stuck with it as a rental until my wife's car is repaired (long story short: 17 yr old idiot girl plows into wife's 9 month old Sienna XLE Ltd w/ AWD)
So here are my questions:
1)Given the (to me at least) increasingly small differences and diminishing returns, why are German cars apparently overpriced, especially when features that should be standard, like xenons, seat warmers, folding rear seats, etc are options, and stunningly overpriced ones at that?
Is it the super high costs of German labor? Material costs? High prices simply because they can and people buy the badge, like when women pay $1000 for a pocketbook when a $200 Coach is just as good?
2) Am I the only one to see a decreasing difference between higher end German cars and the others? I am still floored over how the Subaru drove and how it was equipped- Nav, seat warmers, dual climate control, full leater, etc
3) Where do we think this will go? Will the improvements in the low-mid market spur MB & BMW to get that much better or will they rest on the laurels and losr market share?
4) Anything else to be added? Discuss?
I've driven German cars exclusively for the last 10 years, including various BMW models and now an E500. I consider myself a real car nut and will pay for quality and superior driving ability/experience. The only non German cars in the household were two Jeep GCs and now a Toyota Sienna minivan, none of which are even remotely intended to compete with the Germans.
Here is where my question comes from: I have for various reasons recently driven several cars which I normally wouldn't even drive or even look at. I've recently driven a few Subarus, a Honda Accord and even a new Hyundai Sonata, all of which cost 40-60 percent (or more) less than my E.
Let me be blunt- I was SHOCKED at how narrow the differences were between the herd and the E. Yes, the E ultimately drove better was and a bit smoother,especially with the V8 and to my eyes has a more refined interior, but I could not OBJECTIVELY justify the 50% or more price difference. I just did not see how the improvements were worth 25-35K more. 5-10K, yes. But 30+?? No, at least not when using pure logic w/o emotion. The Subarus (Legacy & Outback) models were especially surprising. With the turbo or 6cyl motors they would spank a 350 4matic and give an E500 a real race for the money. Plus, their AWD systems are arguably superior and, get this-- there is a huge pano roof available!! Geez-- even the Hyundai drove pretty good and wasn't horrible to look it. Too bad we're stuck with it as a rental until my wife's car is repaired (long story short: 17 yr old idiot girl plows into wife's 9 month old Sienna XLE Ltd w/ AWD)
So here are my questions:
1)Given the (to me at least) increasingly small differences and diminishing returns, why are German cars apparently overpriced, especially when features that should be standard, like xenons, seat warmers, folding rear seats, etc are options, and stunningly overpriced ones at that?
Is it the super high costs of German labor? Material costs? High prices simply because they can and people buy the badge, like when women pay $1000 for a pocketbook when a $200 Coach is just as good?
2) Am I the only one to see a decreasing difference between higher end German cars and the others? I am still floored over how the Subaru drove and how it was equipped- Nav, seat warmers, dual climate control, full leater, etc
3) Where do we think this will go? Will the improvements in the low-mid market spur MB & BMW to get that much better or will they rest on the laurels and losr market share?
4) Anything else to be added? Discuss?
12-01-2013, 10:42 AM
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2015 ML 350
good transmission? ...They've never worked the kinks out of the 7 speed. Thats why all new MBs now boot up sa a 6 speed when you start the car. You must use the S/C button to manually put it into 7 speed mode. ...and the next time you start it, its in C or 6 speed mode.
12-01-2013, 12:48 PM
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2014 Mercedes-Benz E550 4Matic, 2010 Subaru Legacy 3.6R
I've noticed the E550 4matic starts in second. Not bad, though, since it cuts out one shift in light-footed driving. I had assumed it was a fuel saving strategy. If I floor it will it start in first gear?
If the nine speed transmission also starts in second, the result will be that most users will have eight speeds always on tap, where the present transmission has six speeds. The resulting one-third increase in the ratios used daily is quite impressive.
If the nine speed transmission also starts in second, the result will be that most users will have eight speeds always on tap, where the present transmission has six speeds. The resulting one-third increase in the ratios used daily is quite impressive.
good transmission? ...They've never worked the kinks out of the 7 speed. Thats why all new MBs now boot up sa a 6 speed when you start the car. You must use the S/C button to manually put it into 7 speed mode. ...and the next time you start it, its in C or 6 speed mode.
12-01-2013, 03:58 PM
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2015 ML 350
I've noticed the E550 4matic starts in second. Not bad, though, since it cuts out one shift in light-footed driving. I had assumed it was a fuel saving strategy. If I floor it will it start in first gear?
If the nine speed transmission also starts in second, the result will be that most users will have eight speeds always on tap, where the present transmission has six speeds. The resulting one-third increase in the ratios used daily is quite impressive.
If the nine speed transmission also starts in second, the result will be that most users will have eight speeds always on tap, where the present transmission has six speeds. The resulting one-third increase in the ratios used daily is quite impressive.
I suspect MB defaulted to a 6 speed operation so that MB wouldn't hear from owners about the lousy "bumped from behind downshift to 1st gear as you crawl to a dead stop while running in 7 speed or "S" mode, which was originally the default mode.
I'm pretty sure the default to boot up in "C" was introduced after the run of 211's, & was first introduced in the C Class.
Last edited by Barry45RPM; 12-02-2013 at 01:06 AM.
12-01-2013, 06:50 PM
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2014 Mercedes-Benz E550 4Matic, 2010 Subaru Legacy 3.6R
This morning, the car started in first gear. I surmise that first gear operation helps the warm-up/emissions control process at low temperatures. Most cars I've had, had too low a first gear ratio for my needs. But drivers in Duluth Minnesota, high elevations, and mountains may need the low gear. A full load of passengers and luggage can also slow down a car.
When you run the car in "S" mode, the shift points are changed & gears are held longer effecting a more rapid acceleration. Some other things are also changed slightly.
I suspect MB defaulted to a 6 speed operation so that MB wouldn't hear from owners about the lousy "bumped from behind downshift to 1st gear as you crawl to a dead stop while running in 7 speed or "S" mode, which was originally the default mode.
I suspect MB defaulted to a 6 speed operation so that MB wouldn't hear from owners about the lousy "bumped from behind downshift to 1st gear as you crawl to a dead stop while running in 7 speed or "S" mode, which was originally the default mode.
