JWS3

OK, guys-- Serious question from an enthusiast and not troll bait. But first, a bit of background.

I've driven German cars exclusively for the last 10 years, including various BMW models and now an E500. I consider myself a real car nut and will pay for quality and superior driving ability/experience. The only non German cars in the household were two Jeep GCs and now a Toyota Sienna minivan, none of which are even remotely intended to compete with the Germans.

Here is where my question comes from: I have for various reasons recently driven several cars which I normally wouldn't even drive or even look at. I've recently driven a few Subarus, a Honda Accord and even a new Hyundai Sonata, all of which cost 40-60 percent (or more) less than my E.

Let me be blunt- I was SHOCKED at how narrow the differences were between the herd and the E. Yes, the E ultimately drove better was and a bit smoother,especially with the V8 and to my eyes has a more refined interior, but I could not OBJECTIVELY justify the 50% or more price difference. I just did not see how the improvements were worth 25-35K more. 5-10K, yes. But 30+?? No, at least not when using pure logic w/o emotion. The Subarus (Legacy & Outback) models were especially surprising. With the turbo or 6cyl motors they would spank a 350 4matic and give an E500 a real race for the money. Plus, their AWD systems are arguably superior and, get this-- there is a huge pano roof available!! Geez-- even the Hyundai drove pretty good and wasn't horrible to look it. Too bad we're stuck with it as a rental until my wife's car is repaired (long story short: 17 yr old idiot girl plows into wife's 9 month old Sienna XLE Ltd w/ AWD)

So here are my questions:
1)Given the (to me at least) increasingly small differences and diminishing returns, why are German cars apparently overpriced, especially when features that should be standard, like xenons, seat warmers, folding rear seats, etc are options, and stunningly overpriced ones at that?
Is it the super high costs of German labor? Material costs? High prices simply because they can and people buy the badge, like when women pay $1000 for a pocketbook when a $200 Coach is just as good?

2) Am I the only one to see a decreasing difference between higher end German cars and the others? I am still floored over how the Subaru drove and how it was equipped- Nav, seat warmers, dual climate control, full leater, etc

3) Where do we think this will go? Will the improvements in the low-mid market spur MB & BMW to get that much better or will they rest on the laurels and losr market share?

4) Anything else to be added? Discuss?

HELL ONA HARLEY

Considering a mid 80's 300e was as much or more than a current 2006 E, I would say there would have to be cost cutting somewhere wouldn't you??? The difference in price from your subaru, Hyundi, etc is materials and build quality.... period.
Electronic's aren't everything. You say yourself that the interior in the E was better quality, more refined and the car was smoother, well these are the exact reasons I paid more and bought the MB. More importaintly is the quality that is not seen by the eye. Take a look at your car one day.... I mean a close look.... Under the hood and under the car, down in the "nooks and cranys". Look at the design, hardware, bolts and brackets. These are the small things that cost $$$ and keep a car on the road for a long time.

Tell me, How many 25 year old toyota's and subaru's do you see on the road today...Yes, mechanicly the others are fine cars, but the other components just fall apart around the engine.

JWS3

to be remarkably well built and as good as MB's. And I am likely as uptight about build quality as you. All I could say was Day-um!! With my wife's van at the body shop I asked a few "higher end" shops what they think of MB. The universal response: Nice cars, but horrendously and needless over complicated. Many won't work on them as they find it very difficult to get damaged electronics (i.e fiber optic cables, etc) to work properly. I asked if this complication was due to superior engineering. "Nope" was the response-some things are better, but all too common are situations where a whole clusterf*ck of clips and the like are used when a simple screw would do the trick and be easier to fix, etc
I really had my eyes opened- and saw what i didn't what to see or even admit. The differences are fewer and fewer every year. You are dead on right that a 25 yr old MB is far better than a 25 yr old Honda. But, based on what I am seeing NOW, we likely will not and cannot say the same thing 25 yrs in the future. MBs horrifically complicated electronics may make the Hondas look better in 20 yrs. Put simply, MB has stood still or even regressed while the others have launched ahead.
I cannot help but think that overpriced labor and the belief that people will pay anything for the "status" factor are part of the problem. I'd like to see a return to the solidity of the old 300e like you say.

fubar

I agree that workmanship/material quality is an important reason. Safety is another. I was rear-ended, while at a complete stop, by a car traveling at full freeway speed. My '00 CLK crumpled up to the back of the front seats and the engine dropped in the front. The only panel that was not damaged was the driver's door and I walked away with minor lower back tweaking. The LEO's were not surprised a bit. They said I was in the best car for crash safety.

Worth the money for me.

fubar

HELL ONA HARLEY

And this is a bad thing????? Having worked in the field (bodyshop), this is a typical response.... Yes, fiber optics would be a nightmare to replace and less materials screws and clips to deal with means less time to fix and more $$$ for the shop .... I see this as a goodthing and more of a reason not to get in a wreck. Lets face it... If MB built like they used to they would either be to exspensive for we (me) average folks or be out of business due to price and competition.

naadp

I think part of the reason you see 25 year old benzes driving around is because people just take better care of them to begin with because they're a much more special car from the start. Just about any car can look good if it's taken care of, but most cars become disposable after they're about 5 years old.

What I find very interesting is that if you go on MB's site, they have a 16 year model history. A new E500 is about 60k and a 1992 E500 was about 80k. According to the inflation calculator http://www.westegg.com/inflation/ : What cost $80000 in 1991 would cost $112890.96 in 2005. So, really when you think about it, the price has gone DOWN about 50% on an E-class.

HELL ONA HARLEY

I have to agree totaly.... I have to wonder how the older crowd, or should I say more "experienced" owners can gripe about build quality compared to the older MB cars when they are infact cheaper today???? To sell a car that is cheaper 20 years later, well, something had to give....You get what you pay for.

ruykava

well, another reason is simple economics of supply and demand. many people are not happy "enough" with their hyundais, toyotas, etc. you've mentioned the reason yourself - materials not up there, bits of engineering not quite perfect. but ask yourself: what car can you get which is $5-10k more than those, but yet as good as the E? if you want it that good, you have to pay. you don't have a choice.

of course, rjm will say the lexus is the answer : but to many the style, ride and handling compromise, and the knowledge that you are in something original, isn't there yet.

so yes, perhaps Mercs and other german makes are overpriced. but you really don't have a choice (except buying 2nd hand). Merc and co. know this, that's why prices are actually going UP across some ranges and in some countries despite the competition. the reasoning is, those who want it will pay up. remember Karl Benz's famous statement? spend an extra $10, and people will pay $100 for it.

another way of looking at it is like a work of art - an artist uses nothing but the same canvas and paints anyone can buy. but depending on who paints, the painting can be worth less than the sum of its parts, or much, much more. similarly any car can now have seat warmers, climate control, big sunroofs, xenons, etc. but that's all on paper.

Brav

why does a dog lick its *****?


cause it can.

BudC

• Mercedes went to fiber optics for a lot of reasons including weight, cost and ecology. A lot of the things German manufacturers do are mandated by the German government. Reducing the copper content in cars is one of them.
• My 1991 300E had an MSRP of $48,800 and that's about $67,700 in 2004 dollars. I paid just under $50,000 for my 2004 E320. You can see the cost cutting in everything about the E320 but it outperforms the 300E in every way, it's safer and has more amenities. I don't doubt that I'll drive this car well into the second decade the way I've driven my other Mercedes.
• Given the arguments from the original poster, we should all buy Timex's rather than Seikos's. In other words, if we focus on the basic requirements of the product and we don't care how long they last then we should buy the cheapest product that will perform the minimum task. Longivity, long term parts availability, safety, comfort, handling, amenities and other reasons some of us buy Mercedes may not be important some people. That's OK but I'm going to keep on buying Mercedes unless or until my situation dictates something else.

JWS3

so who needs a Seiko" mentality. Just the opposite. My point is that there seems to be a sense of diminishing returns. Could it be that we are paying more and more for a smaller and smaller difference? In years past there was a huge difference between MB/BMW and the others and the premium well justified, which is why I havn't bothered to even drive a Subaru or Honda in many years . Now..... I am not so sure. The differences have narrowed considerably, which may explain recent sales figures and reliability debates. Based on what I see here on this board, and as much as it pains me to admit, I cannot help but think that Hondas etc will be up and running in 20 yrs while we MB owners hunt around in desperation for yet another failed module and the like. Adding insult to injury, the 80's 300Es will still be going strong....

Here is what struck me- Yes, MB is better, but the difference in materials/engineering seems to only account for perhaps 5-10K. Where did the other 20 go?? Profit? Huge labor costs?

Again, I am not here to bust on MB or re-start the Lexus/MB debate. Instead, I remain stunned by how much better the others have come while MB hasn't done as much. Never, ever thought I'd actually have a thought cross my mind as I drove a Subaru "Damn, trhis thing isn;t all that far from my Benz, why did I pay 2X as much for perhaps a 20% difference? Believe me, I didn't want to have those thoughts- just couldn't help it. My wife asked my if I was out in the cold too long when I mentioned my thoughts to her. SHe was also hopeful that my fascination w/ expensive cars would come down a notch or two!

JimPurdy

Repairability is another reason I am willing to pay extra for an MB. If you look at the construction techniques of many of the less expensive cars you can see how they are assembled with pop-rivets and other fasteners that are not removable. The cars end up being disposable when anything needs to be replaced. A friend of mine who has driven MB for 25 years says that if you can't easily take an MB apart, you are going about the wrong. Most MB parts are removable and replacable where you can't do that with other cars. This type of engineering and assembly does cost more but allows the car to be maintained for many years of service.

lig

:LOL: So true, my man. If folks are willing to pay a premium for M-B then the price will stay high (relatively speaking)

I think the difference today is that cars are just getting better overall.

There was a time that M-B produced a car that was clearly better than the rest. The differences are very subtle these days.

If the new CEO is able to get the quality back to where it should be then that premium would be justifiable.

From a guy who voted with his dollars and replaced his W211, not a troll.

HELL ONA HARLEY

Maybe one of the reasons other manufacturers seem to be "catching up" with MB is because they were half the car... When your at the top, where else is there to go??? The only thing left MB was trying to do was stay competitive by lowering the price of their product for more to enjoy and the bottom line sell more cars and make more $$$$. Unfortunatly some of the "experienced" owners can see a difference within the brand. As a new owner of the MB brand, all I see is the difference within all the brands, thus my decision to by MB....

gsrthomas

Just face it the older benz's e300 straight 6's are solid performers. Even the diesels are really good. My friend has a 1984 5 cyl diesel with 450k miles on it.

Once chrylser bought out MB reliabiliy of the electrical components went down the tube.

I cant justify paying $50k+ for an electrical nightmare.

BudC

What Mercedes have you owned? What electrical nightmares have you experienced?

BTW, merging with Chrysler had nothing to do with the programming and voltage regulation problems that were experienced on early W211's. These have all been fixed in production cars and there are TSB's to address them for older cars.

SportyS

People pay for the prestige... period.

BudC

HELL ONA HARLEY

Hey bud.... Don't judge the thread one one dumb-***'s comment...

SportyS

Yea, we all know who the dumbass is.

BudC

I was going to stay away from this one but I simply haven't got the will power. Now I think I have learned my lesson

I have been dying to respond to some of these posts with this link...

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/youare.swf

HELL ONA HARLEY

L.O.L.....

Nevada Jack

ROTFLMAO...Good one Bud! Likewise trying to stay out of it.

Where do these Chrysler stories start and where the hell are all these electrical problems and MB's falling apart by the 100's. My 2003 E320 was one of the best I have owned and the latest S430 surpasses them all. I also owned (besides others) a '85 diesel wagon and a '95 gas wagon...they were great cars but the newer ones are greater in many respects. Let the trolls and the gripers continue to be miserable...I enjoy my MB and like you could care less what negative comments surface here.

Jakpro1

Just some quick info for ya. Here is a Roush Performance 327 that you can buy from Summit Racing......the cost 22,000$, the hp 425, with 390 of torque. My 5.4 (which is about a 330ci) just dyno'd at 585hp. Can you imagine asking Roush to build something that put out that kind of hp AND be able to put 100K of street driving on it. You would be in the +30-40K range min. That's just the motor.....then add safety features etc etc....

Benz is in a down period now with quality so it's easy to criticize, but just 10 years ago, they dominated the top 10 quality list and will do so again.

http://www.roushparts.com/pdf/327R_E...tion_Sheet.pdf

lig

Reality check here:

My early '03 E320 was an electrical nightmare. It sounds like the great majority of those problems seem to be worked out by now.

It did suck being a $53,000+ guinea pig though.

My service advisior was very helpful and understanding (and I usually got a C class loaner) but those multiple trips for service shouldn't have been necessary in the first place.

Those of you in denial about M-Bs drop in quality - I am glad you guys in particular have had trouble free cars.

The fact remains that many of us have not had the same experience.

As proof why on earth would M-B make quality improvements their stated goal if there were no problems to begin with? It doesn't make sense.

"Mercedes, Quality Dropping, Loses Market Share to BMW, Lexus
Bloomberg February 8, 2005 Jeremy Van Loon in Frankfurt jvanloon@bloomberg.net.
Dan Stets at dstets@bloomberg.net.
Dominik Wendel got fed up with his Mercedes SLK 350 sports car. First, the convertible roof leaked. Then it wouldn't open properly, sending him back to the garage at least five times. The car also whistled on the autobahn.
“I was not very satisfied with the quality,'' said Wendel, 40, a lawyer with the Frankfurt-based firm Noerr Stiefenhofer Lutz. Last year he bought a Lexus SC 430 from Toyota Motor Corp.
Mercedes has plunged in customer satisfaction surveys in Germany and the U.S., partly because of technical flaws. The world's largest luxury carmaker has lost sales to Bayerische Motoren Werke AG and Toyota, and profit is falling. Tomorrow, Mercedes's parent, DaimlerChrysler AG, probably will say fourth- quarter net income more than halved to 634 million euros ($821 million), according to 14 analysts surveyed by Bloomberg.
Eckhard Cordes, who took over in October as chief executive officer of Stuttgart, Germany-based Mercedes Car Group, has pledged to reverse the slide. A 29-year DaimlerChrysler veteran, Cordes, 54, says he plans to cut costs to counter the impact of the U.S. dollar's 16 percent decline against the euro in the past two years. Mercedes already negotiated 500 million euros in savings with German workers in 2004. Cordes also says he'll make sure cars produced now meet the company's quality standards.
``Each customer lost is very difficult to win back,'' says Michael Schneider, a fund manager at Frankfurt-based Deka Investment GmbH, which oversees about $144 billion in assets and owns DaimlerChrysler shares. ``It will take time to improve their image.''

Electronic Failures - DaimlerChrysler shares fell 4.7 percent last year, compared with a 15 percent stock gain by Toyota, which is based in central Japan's Aichi prefecture. They closed at 36.16 euros yesterday.
Mercedes-Benz, which makes the S-Class luxury sedan and the A- Class compact hatchback, ranked 29th out of 37 brands in a June reliability study of 3-year-old cars by Westlake Village, California-based J.D. Power & Associates. It logged 327 defects per 100 vehicles, worse than the U.S. industry average. Four years earlier, Mercedes scored seventh out of 38 brands, with 308 defects per 100 vehicles

At home, Mercedes-Benz had the most electronic failures of all brands sold in Germany, Michelstadt, Germany-based automotive consulting firm 3hm Automotive said in July. It was also last among 33 brands in a March study gauging customer satisfaction by the ADAC German Automobile Club. Car owners were most satisfied with Toyota. Munich-based BMW ranked ninth.
Quality deteriorated at Mercedes, known for its star symbol, as DaimlerChrysler focused on reorganizing Chrysler Group in the U.S. and expanding in Asia with its unprofitable affiliate, Mitsubishi Motors Corp., says Michael Raab, an analyst at Sal Oppenheim in Frankfurt."