rjm

J.D. Powers has just released their 2006 Initial Quality Study for new vehicles. Unfortunately, Mercedes-Benz still ranks near the bottom of the list....very disappointing news for those hoping for vast improvements in quality coming from Mercedes-Benz.


http://www.jdpa.com/news/releases/pr...asp?ID=2006082

Musikmann

Thanks for sharing this - I am certainly disappointed.

rjm

This is a link to the PDF file posted on another web site...it makes the report much easier to read:


http://forums.e60.net/index.php?act=...=post&id=25430

BudC

Initial quality studies mean little to me. It's the other two J.D. Powers studies that count. These are mostly nit-picking things that irritate people and not serioius problems.

Even the long term studies aren't all that accurate. I have a 15 year old 300E that was supposed to have had electrical problems. It never saw a dealer in the first 12 years except to have the transmission serviced.

My two year old E320 has had some recalls/TSB's installed but the only thing that's been fixed is a bad horn.

Forgetaboutit!

DWP

Power changed their survey methodolgy to include things that people found annoying or difficult about their cars - "design problems" - as well as things that actually needed repairs or otherwise reflected on reliability. Thus, BMW probably got marked down for I-Drive, and Mercedes may have been marked down for the "feel" of SBC, as opposed to its reliability.

Germancar1

Yes, please remember folks the criteria has changed for this survey now. Mercedes tied for 5th place, way above average just last year so there is no way that mechanical problems are the cause behind this drop. BMW was much higher last year also.

M

ClayJ

JD Powers surveys are worthless. Worthless.

rjm

So I guess they wouldn't be so worthless if Mercedes were listed at the top of the list, eh??

Andaluz

Yes yes...this article is just every Lexus fanboy's wet dream...

Hey rjm! How is your big Toyota?

Did you read this coming?

Toyota recalling the 2007 Camry

And what about this one?

The Toyota Avalon is a heap of Junk

Oh and don't forget this one!

Toyota recalls about 1 million cars globally

Oh dear! Even Lexus is having problems!

Why buy a Lexus when you can have an equally unreliable Mercedes?

rjm

I take it, you didn't like the survey either?? Well, maybe next year, eh??

Andaluz

Errr...I think I misjudged the Mercedes fanboys. I tought they were the most arrogant fanboys along with GM Fanboys, but, I guess I was wrong. Toyota fanboys are even worse!

Lexus SC430 a sportscar? Oh yeah...in the same way that John Prescott is an athlete.

rjm

Don't shoot the Messenger boys.....it's just a survey that just happens to be accepted and read by the automotive industry nationwide. If you don't like the results don't blame me for your disappointment. Blame Mercedes-Benz or MBUSA, or Chrysler Corporation, or Dieter.....or just blame the guys that sent in their concerns and complaints when queried by J.D. Powers. It's a valid survey (like it or not) that just reflects ownership experiences like your own. Don't get your panties in a wad over it!

ClayJ

The first rule in statistics concerning the validity of the results from a survey or poll is that the sample must be valid and representative --

For dozens of reasons, JD Powers survey sample populations are NOT VALID in regards to higher-end cars like a MBZ.

For just one example: the surveys are hopelessly skewed by the number of low-brow, cheap-car-buying Americans -- whose number one criteria is CHEAP COST. How would Mercedes ever fare well in a cheap cost sample?!!!
JD Powers survey returns are overly biased - by a mile - in surveying the lowest-common-denominator car buying population segment. As a comparison, imagine the survey results returned by the question, "What is the most spectacular vacation spot you have ever been to?", asked at a Nascar race in Charlotte NC, vs. the same question asked at the Hotel de Paris in Monaco....

So 150,000 cheap Chevy buyer/owners and 200,000 cheap Honda owners are surveyed -- how many of them even know what a MBZ car is in comparison to own? 5% - 10% maybe? Sure they think that their $17,000 Chevy is a great car -- they have nothing of real merit to compare it to!

In contrast, take a survey of high-end (say base price over $50,000 USD) car buyers/owners and have them compare the quality, reliability, and ownership experience of their Audi, Volvo, Jag, BMW, or MBZ -- that would be a survey whose reults I would consider in evaluation.

Getting a clue, yet?

JD Powers surveys are worthless unless you are in the market for a cheap car, period.

paulv

I agree with ClayJ -- if the data set is rubbish, the statistics derived from that data set are also rubbish. Consumer Reports solicits its subscribers for data -- that data distribution will be skewed also.

Regards,
Paul...

rjm

So there you have it.

johna1

What Clay is saying, and I think he has a good point, is that the survey measures RELATIVE satisfaction, not absolute.

So, for example, say Ford drivers never drove anything else, and MB drivers never drove anything else either.

Then the survey says nothing about how good a Ford is compared with an MB in absolute terms. All it says is how happy Ford owners are compared with MB owners. If the Ford owners expectations are lower (likely), then the results are not meaningful as a basis for comparison between brands.

MKW

Until you sell your car and the pre-owned market discounts its value by many factors including its quality rank during its years of production . So it ultimately is " worth " something to a MBZ brand owner, even if you personally have one with ZERO problems.

ClayJ

Exactly. But there is even more to it than that because in addition the polling is not scientific - either in it's questioning or its sampling....

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics".

And the JD Powers surveys are worse than most. Nothing but pabulum for the masses....

MKW

These same masses don't read car boards that discuss the limitations of these surveys . They just see the rankings in attention deficit disordered " newspapers " like USA Today and snicker and talk among their friends and think that their Dodge (minivans) are better built than a Mercedes/BMW .

gvaughn

While I agree that these surveys could be biased towards lower end and cheaper cars, it wouldn't surprise me if some of the complaints on these boards (such as with the navigation system only identifying a street block instead of an actual address, and the limited cell phone compatibility among other issues) were to explain some of the negative results.

RJC

We all know that MB's have had MORE than their share of issues/problems of late; let's just hope they get it right going forward and not be so damn arrogant when it comes to rectifying them...

oilbelcher

Very good points (as I am a statistical guy). However, even if there is bias, or difficult to compare a rating from one brand to another because of sampling, you can compare the TREND of a rating for the same brand/car (assuming their survey methods havn't changed, which someone said they may have). Point is, MBZ/BMW has dropped, others have risen or stayed high (even if survey methods changed). I know that there are explanations of why, or what triggered the drop (i.e. small meaningless things that don't impact long term ownership/quality). We can't ignore that the trend has declined, and hasn't risen yet.

The real test will be next year, after they have made several design/engineering/marketing efforts to improve quality and perception of quality.

Also, even if the survey methods are biased, or survey a particular group, some manufactureres have been smart enough to notice, and even smarter that they are focusing design and marketing efforts to potential problem areas (i.e. "teaching-to-the-test" in a classroom).

I can't wait for Merc & BMW to improve ratings on quality, but this is rocket-science either... Of course Japenese cars have no soul or excitement and the sportiness is synthetic, but they are doing something right to get positive perception. Perhaps thats just their marketing niche/edge.

JLP

This survey was conducted using 63,000 people (out of how many cars sold in the usa????), sorry but this combined with the fact that "design and ease of use" is now included means the JD power survey don't mean jack.............how did Porsche go from the bottom of the list to number one in a year?
Because Porsche owners think their cars are the best and answered so in the survey!
These surveys are bull**** and anyone with a functioning, logical, self-thinking brain would know this!! Don't believe everything you read.

lig

I find this post rather amusing.

Are you implying that M-B owners somehow do not think their cars are the best?

Did ownership of Porsches by fanbois only suddenly occur?

JLP

I'm glad you're easily amused, but no....... MB owners are much more inclined to complain about the "design flaws" of their daily drivers than Porsche owners whose cars are primarily for the weekend or track use.

The reason Porsche shot from the bottom to the top is beacause JD Power changed the parameters of the survey, not because Porsches quality "suddenly occured" in one short year!!