HELL ONA HARLEY

L.O.L..... Exessive wear and perhaps the consumption of oil could be the ramifications of not changing oil as recommended.... But catastrophic engine failure???? You crack me up bro... Are you sure you don't own a priemer auto shop in Holland too..... I know if I did I would be pushing them oil changes too.....

CE750

If you can get any good data to support going strictly by FSS I would listen..
I imagine this data is in German, but don't fret as I can read German quite well. I stay in touch with a few friends over there myself (including a 92 year old former Colonel and aid to Rommel)..

My problem is that there is so much marketing hype and misinformation about this subject, as well as disagreement by engineers and automakers as to what's ideal, that I'll sleep better at night knowing that the oil in my engine is fresh and clean.. no sludge, no excessive particulate matter (especially since I'm in a diesel), and all for a lousy $50, the money I spend on a dinner out with my wife at a mediocre restaurant like Appleby's..

New oil has to be better than old oil, so in theory a change every 1000 miles would be great.. but unless I had the time/tools/ and patience to do it myself it would be ludicrous to do.. so 1/2 the 13K is my compromise, not to mention I also did a 1000 mile "break-in" change..

I also will change (contrary to MB's recommendations) the transmission fluids/filters at every 26K or so..

CE750

that was meant towards the transmissions and not engine.. I should have been more clear in my statements. MB is rumored to be considering a 60K (KM) transmission oil change interval where up to now they've said "maintenance free".. Bud knows more about this than me, but I've heard it now from two different sources other than Bud.

Like I said, do what you want. I'll pay the few bucks to keep my car running well for 15+ years.. BudC with his 17 year old 190D is a target (albiet moving) for me to try to catch. I'm going to try and see just how long I can make this car last, since the new MB's are all going to Aluminum block engines and have no chance at the same lifespan.

guanabara

Hi BudC,
I read that report too and a quick search online landed the following:
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/s.../oil-life.html

If you read the M1 and Amsoil first full tests you will see that your memory may not be reflecting what the results really were.
Compare the metal counts for both oils at the 12000 mile point. Iron was almost 3 times higher on M1. Amsoil went for 14000 miles and test was stopped not because of any wear metal levels, but other mechanic gut feeling about TBN.
Note that the labs they used were also giving several conflicting results.
At any rate I hope that the link will refresh your mind. The real case here is really which oil protected the engine better. The wear metal results cannot lie.

BudC

You fail to mention that Mobil 1 was used first when the engine was new. You also fail to mention that the Amsoil test was stopped because the viscosity had reached the equivalent of 15W-40. The result was a loss of fuel economy and a rough running engine.

I think that test shows that in a real world situation, Mobil 1 proved to be the better oil. If you interpret the results another way, then that's your privilege. I still don't trust a company that has to market their products like Amway.

Mirage

https://www.amsoil.com/performancete...971/index.aspx


check out the above link for the test results on AMSOIL vs the competition

HELL ONA HARLEY

How about a link from a Mobil 1 website or Mobil 1 sponsored test results showing Amsol is better.... Get my drift????
I'm with Bud.... If I can't go to my local auto parts store or dealer to get my oil then something is wrong...

BudC

I believe that both the Mobil 1 and Castrol Syntec oils are Group III oils using Hydrocracked petroleum bases. The Amsoil oil is a true PAO Group IV oil which SHOULD look better. The question I have is how does AMSOIL do against the Group IV Mobil 1 oils such as 0W-40 and 15W-50 or against the Group V oils like Redline.

I've already said that the AMSOIL 5W-40 European Engine oil looks great. I suspect it would do well in comparison with Mobil 1 0W-40 but I doubt that it would blow it away. Both use PAO bases so the only difference is in the additives. That comes down to what the manufacturer is trying to accomplish. If Amsoil is trying to make their oil look good in wear tests at the expense of real world performance then maybe that's not so good.

BTW, go to the Redline site and take a look at their comparisons. I don't know if they are any more meaningful than the ones AMSOIL publish but at least they compare their products with serious oils like Mobil 1 15W-50 and aren't just slightly better, they are a lot better.

Mirage

Welllllllllllllll , if Mobil1 had a link with test results , you can bet your Harley that they would have it out for all to see.Considering all the money they spend on advertising their product, the least they would do would be to tout it as the best your hard money can buy for your car if in fact it is. Nobody is saying that it is not a good oil,hey after all, MB recommends it in all their cars,all that I am saying is that AMSOIL is a better oil based on test results from the past as well as the present not to mention my experience using it..
I have been using it since 1990 and am one satisfied customer.
I am currently using Mobil1 because I am getting FREE oil changes...when the time is up if I still have the car , AMSOIL will be flowing in the crankcase for sure.

BudC

How can we really know which oil is better? We can't trust the car manufacturers because you have Ford and Honda recommending ridiculous 0W-20 oils so that their CAFE averages will look better.

You can't trust the dealer because they are going to use the least expensive product they can get away with.

You can't trust the oil companies because their advertising is geared toward fooling naive consumers.

You can't trust yourself to know which is best if you get rid of the car before the new car smell wears off.

Maybe you can trust engineers that work for automotive companies if you could find out what they would use themselves.

All we can do is educate ourselves the best way possible and take everything we read with a grain of salt. I think there is one simple guideline that will ensure longevity and that is to use a product from a respected company of adequate viscosity and change the oil and filter on a schedule that we are comfortable with.

I'm sure those who keep cars forever like I do will make sure they aren't going to gamble because of cost, false ecology or tricky advertising.

Mirage

Well as I stated, I have been using AMSOIL since 1990 and it was used in an 1991 Acura Legend that now has 174,000 miles on it ( it now belongs to my college attending son in Fla.) and I can tell you that since I got it, I have changed the oil twice a year with AMSOIL ,once in the spring and once in the fall .The engine does not burn any oil,hardly any varnish deposits that are noticeable, no sludge and runs exceptionally well.
So that translates to about 28 oil changes in the life of the car.Try doing that with another oil.And if I hadn't been so **** about it,I could have done what AMSOIL recommended and changed it only ONCE a year(with an oil filter repalcement in between)and halved the amount from 28 to 14 changes! So clearly, I have seen a substantial savings in oil change maintenance that I never would have seen if I had adhered to the manufaturers recommendation using conventional oil and without reducing engine protection whatsoever.
In terms of the ecology, yes ,I did help out...when I compare what others are doing with the 3000 mile drain interval ,its another 30 or so oil changes,adds up.
And I did it without compromising the endurance of the engine, I used an oil that has greater temperature range and greater lubricity and does not evaporate as quick at high temps.
Based on my experience,I think if you are going to keep a car "forever,"IMHO, you cant afford NOT to put in AMSOIL.

BudC

My 17 year old 190D had about that many miles on it when we sold it and it used no oil. I too changed oil twice a year. I never had to add oil between changes.

The oil was 10W-30 Mobil 1 back before they changed from a Group IV base to a Group III base.

My '91 300E hasn't got high mileage but it's got high hours and goes over 5K using less than a quart of 15W-50 Mobil 1.

People put 100's of thousands of miles on Mercedes using plain old Dino oil.

CE750

Very well put Bud.. and more reason to frequently change that oil... just in case it's not "As good" as we're being told.

Mirage

sure is true about putting 1000's of miles on an MB, particularly wit Dino oil , but of course it had to drained at Manuf. intervals , no doubt, especially the diesels.
and with dinosaur oil , you will definlitely get sludge and varnish deposits if not drained according to man. intervals, and more often then not , you would get them anyway with plain old dino oil,it s one reason synthetics are so much better then conventional oil ,just turn the key after putting it in and it starts to break down. And for the most part,it s about the use of syn, in all cars , not just MB's.
Just so you are aware , I am not suggesting you change to AMSOIL, of course you use what you think is best, I am only sharing my experience with its use.
If you think it s not "as good," hey , then it's not as good.Far be it from me to tell anybody what they should use.

BudC

I've never said AMSOIL is *not as good*. I've said that I don't buy into AMSOIL's tests because I don't think they are any more meaningful than Redlines tests or anyone elses tests that are used in advertising. I've also never liked the way AMSOIL is marketed. Why do it like that?

I've used Group IV synthetics since 1984 and I'll continue to use them. I'm always trying to educate myself about things like motor oil. I try to go beyond the hype and find out the details. One thing I like knowing is the additives used by oil companies and try to understand why they would use them. It's not magic. There are no secrets. Oil companies choose their additives for a variety of reasons and one of them is to provide what can be marketed. In the case of AMSOIL, it appears to be good numbers on wear tests.

Since AMSOIL now offer an oil that conforms to MB's latest specs, I feel comfortable that the additives were chosen to suit Mercedes requirements, not AMSOIL's advertising department.

Mirage

From what I know of AMSOIL what sets them apart is the use of the finer base stocks that are more expensive and that most ,if not all other Co.'s do NOT use.
The difference ,ironically is that they DO NOT spend they're money on advertisements like the others,they put it in the better base stocks that produces a far better motor oil.
It is why you don't see ads about AMSOIL.

SAguirre

Amway did not advertise when they were around nor does Pre-Paid Legal advertise. What use would advertising do for Amsoil if you can go and get it at the store?

Come on! If their oil is so great, why not sell it in regular stores? Why doesn't any car manufacturer recommend them? I am sorry to say, but if you have a good product it usually tends to make its way to better distribution systems. I also don't buy the crap that all the Amsoil fans tell me about Amsoil taking the higher ground and not advertising or selling out to retail stores. What is wrong with selling your oil at an out parts store? Something is fishy about Amsoil and I don't like this about it!

What is interesting is that there is always someone on these boards saying that AMSOIL is the BEST oil. You stated this yourself. Look at the W210 thread about oil changes. Mobil 1 outperformed AMSOIL on the test that "guanabara" did on his cars.

Bud is correct, Amsoil's tests are not accurate and in the end you need to make your own educated choice. I personally feel that Mobil 1 (40 weight) is every bit as good or better than Amsoil. Not to mention, I can go to Walmart and buy it.

Steve

Mirage

Just so we are clear here...I am NOT trying to convince you or anybody to buy AMSOIL, I am simply sharing my experience with it, I could care less how they market their product,that s the decision they make,perhaps you can write to the founder of the company and ask him why he doesn't sell in stores?I tried it ,I like it , and therefor I will continue to use it. I have nothing but great results with it for the 15 years I have been using it and all they have ever done is improve it while other oil Co.'s play catch up.Not to mention that they make synthetic tranny fluid,gear lube,grease etc. Does anyone else make it?
I dont need to go to WalMart or any other store for oil , I get it delivered right to my door.I'm not knocking Mobil1,I use it in my Benz,but for the record, AMSOIL is the First in Synthetics and so that say's something to me about their product,that they are still in busisness and their marketing model is succesful says a lot, don't you think?

djamer

Hey Guys,

Today I got my Service A performed at my independant Benz mechanic, and i personally brought Mobil 0w-40 for the oil change. Despite the fact FSS intervals are around 15000 apart, my mechanic strongly advised me to change the oil around 6000 to 8000 regardless. Even if you a soft daily driver, going without an oil change for 15K with sythentic oil is not recommended.

amer

CE750

Good advise, problem is the naysayers on this topic are just going to chalk that up to your mechanic trying to make an extra buck on you

But my attitude is, fine... make an extra $50/year....

BudC

Huh? Redline, Mobil and many, many other brands produce synthetic lubricants. I had Mobil 1 synthetics in the entire drive train of my 190D.

As for AMSOIL being the first, I'm sorry to disappoint you but Motul were the first (1971). Let's also be clear about some other things. AMSOIL may use a good quality PAO base but there are many companies that use ester bases which are superior to PAO. One thing about esters is that it reduces the need for dispersants in additives.

Perhaps you should also check out these oils. Most of them have at least some ester in their base fluids.

Fuchs Silkolene Pro S 5w-40
Motul 300V Power 5w-40
Elf Excellium LDX 5w-40
Agip Synthetic 5w-40
Pentosin Synthetic 5w-40
Redline 5W-40
Other Motul 5W-40 synthetics

CE750

damn good stuff! But at $13/quart even I won't be changing my oil every 6500 miles!

BudC

I've read the opinion that Motul 300V Power 5w-40 is the best motor oil in the world and is used by practically every team at LeMans. It's supposed to be 100% ester (2 types).

But we don't have to pay $13/quart. We can buy 5W-40 Redline for less and get an oil that pretty much exceeds everybody's requirements to the point they don't even have to list them.

Shoot, the oil I use in my 300E (15W-50 Mobil 1) shows up all over the place at Sebring and you can (gasp) buy it at Walmarts.

CE750

I might look into the Redline next change...

guanabara

I don't see the point of putting a formula 1 oil in my car and spending >$14/qt if for around $5.00/qt I can have one of the best oils available for passenger cars, that will keep its wear metals low until it is time for me to change the oil at 12 months interval.
Those oils are built with other priorities in mind. They do not stay in the engine longer than a few days at best and may not even be the best for passenger cars in the long run.

That is worst than the unfairness it was blamed against Amsoil lab test comparisons.

I have great news for you all. I contacted Dave, my friend that introduced Amsoil products to me last year and he indicated that they just completed the tests comparing Amsoil and M1 oils of the same type as used in european car engines.
The results will be posted on their web site in the next few weeks.
At that time, I will post a link here.

Below is a list of worldwide oils known to meet MB 229.5 specs: (notice the absence of redlines and Motuls?)(notice also the fact that only 5 oil formulations in the USA meet these specs)
MB sheet 229.5 approved oils; "MB Longlife Service Oils"
for passenger cars with gas and diesel engines with extended drain intervals beyond 229.3 oils, to 30,000 km, min 1.8% fuel saving, first oils introduced summer 2002. For gas engines of the M100 series, gas engines of the M200 series and diesel engines of the OM600 series (not models with Euro 4 diesel particle filters).
229.5 engine oils must be used with fleece oil filter designed for use with 229.5 engine oils.

AGIP Formula LL DC 5W-30 (I)
Amsoil Synthetic 5W-40 European Engine Oil (USA)
Aral SuperTronic G 5W-30 (D)
Aral SuperTronic M 5W-30 (D)
Castrol DCO TOPUP 0W-30 (D)
Castrol Syntec European Formula 0W-30 (USA)
Elf Excellium 229.5 5W-30 (F)
FormulaShell Ultra AB 5W-30 (GB)
Fuchs Titan Supersyn SL MB 5W-30 (D)
Labo MB 229.5 5W-30 (F)
Liqui Moly Longtime High Tech 5W-30 (D)
Mobil 1 SuperSyn European Car Formula 0W-40 / Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel 0W-40 (USA)
Mobil SHC Formula MB 5W-30
Motorex Profil M-XL 5W-30 (CH)
OMV full syn MB 5W-30 (A)
Pennzoil European Formula Ultra 5W-30 (USA)
Premium Synthetik Motorenöl 5W-30 (DaimlerChrysler, D)
Quaker State European Formula Ultra 5W-30 (USA)
Shell Helix Ultra AB 5W-30 (Mercedes-Benz) (GB)
Shell Helix Ultra DC 229.5 (GB)
Total Quartz 229.5 5W-30 (F)
Valvoline SynPower MB 5W-30 (NL)

http://www.whnet.com/4x4/oil.html