surfingva

A few days ago I posted about a 2004 E500 4Matic going for $15k and got some excellent information on it. Since then I have been doing research and frankly I have been more scared than anything else, mostly because of the high likelihood of airmatic failures etc., even when taking into account that most people only post when something goes wrong, not when they are just driving their cars with no problems. At the same time, I am used to buying a car and driving it for ever; in the process I get annoyed if I have to visit the shop for anything other than oil changes, but realize that $*#$ happens.

I also talked to a few mercedes shops about doing PPI, and what I got was a very reserved, 'yeah we can visually check the car and put it on the STAR system to check for codes, but you never know ...'. Costs between $50 and $150. (By the way, any recommendations for good MB independent shops in the Hampton Roads region in Virginia?)

I would like to pose some questions here, hopefully people with more experience can shed some light or nudge me in the right direction.

1) One of the mechanics I talked to in the local shops indicated that he would not purchase a vehicle without repair records. The carfax report for one of the vehicles I'm looking at (the one I like the most visually) does not have any repair/maintenance records. Is there another place to check for repair records? Do folks here share his attitude of staying away?

2) I've read extensively the issue of the '03 W211 being the 1st year and least reliable. So how would these three vehicles compare in terms of value/common wisdom predicted reliability?

2004, E500 4Matic, 85k miles, $15k, 1 owner, no maint. info in carfax (like the most)
2005, E500, 105k miles, $14.3k, two owners, carfax shows regular service
2007, E350, 75k miles, $19k, two owners, carfax shows regular service, some failed emission tests that were corrected, but no indication of repairs to correct to failed emission test.

3) Anticipated costs. After some rough calculations, I estimated the cost of my vehicles in the past to have been between $1000 to $1500 per year to drive, that includes depreciation and maintenance (not fuel). For example I had a VW rabbit bought for $3.5k, drove for 6 years and spent about $3k in repairs, then traded it for $500, so $1k/year to drive. Other 'nicer' vehicles came in at no more than $1.5k/year, even though they were purchased new, mostly because I keep them for a long period and bought factory extended warranties that shielded me from any repair costs. I realize the MB won't be that cheap, but some of the stories are out right scary. What would a reasonable yearly cost be, or better yet, can it be at less than $2.5k to $3.0k per year?

I shopped around for extended warranties and a 3 year which covers "a lot" but not airmatic comes in at $3.5k, and a 3 year that covers airmatic comes in at $6.6k! I am thinking that if I pursue the 2004 at $15k and put $6.6k on reserve for repairs over the next 6-8 years, assuming no residual value that would put the cost of driving it at the ballpark. I typically drive less than 10k/year now days. The question the becomes, is there a more than a 50% chance that this will work with any of the above vehicles?

I know I am asking too much and probably over thinking everything, but as an engineer by training that's the only way I know how to operate - so humor me!

Thanks

06E5004ME

First off, if you are coming from a VW Rabbit, do not expect to be spending $1000/year on maintenance every year. I spend that much but I do all the work. Just to give you an idea, new AC compressor would cost just about $1000-$1500 to replace at a shop. New Airmatic shocks will cost you another $1000-$1200 in parts, rear around $700. Suspension is not complex like the Audi's multi-link, but still expect to spend $200-$500 per side on control arms, bushings, ball joints, etc. Two engine mounts cost around $300-$400. CPS sensor is around $100, but easy to replace. 4Matics are prone to propeller shaft failures, $800-$1000 for the damn thing. E350/550s have a balance shaft gear issue which you don't want to know how much it costs to replace. SBC pump costs around $1200, but there is an extended warranty of some sort on some VINs.

Chances of Airmatic and SBC failing during the same year are slim, so I guess it could average out to $1000/year over time.

These are the major things that I can think of at the moment right off the bat with that mileage. If Airmatic has been recently serviced - great!

Unfortunately, I expect the values on used 211s continue to drop as most people don't want to touch such a complex car with a 10 foot pole.

There is almost no aftermarket parts for W211 or Mercedes in general like there is for VW/Audi. 211 is fairly new and aftermarket companies did not have a chance to develop and test parts for it yet. Arnott just released the rear air struts this year IIRC.

As for the 3rd party warranty, I'd say don't bother. Most warranties only cover powertrain, which is rock solid on Mercedes. I'd suggest saving $100-$200/month and putting it in a car fund, so that when something does break, you can actually soften the hit your wallet takes.

To me, the 05 with 105k miles looks the most attractive, but I'd never pay that much. I got my 1-owner 06 with 130k miles for $9k.

homeofstone

2007 e350 does not have airmatic suspension and does not have the the SBC brake system. Two things to consider. Also if you are interested in the 2007 e350 check the engine number and make sure its not one that has the balance shaft problem.

E55Greasemonkey

Stay away from 4-matic unless you really need it.

surfingva

@06e5004me:
Thanks for the feedback and information. The Crank Position Sensor was replaced by the dealer who is selling the car, so that's one thing done. Unfortunately, no other information on prior servicing on other components. And regarding the VW, that was the car I had while I was in graduate school, it's been a long time since then and I have no expectations of similar costs, just a point of reference.

@homeofstone:
Great point on the e350; also the 7 speed vs 5 speed transmission and gas mileage being somewhat less ridiculous on the 350 is a plus. Is there any info on which engines are the ones with (or without) the balance shaft problem?

@E55Greasemonkey
Thanks for the pointer; that was my gut feeling as well; living in virginia, i do not foresee use of 4 wheel drive; the sales guy kept telling me how it handles better and this and that, I was not persuaded. Too bad we can't just re-arrange options in these cars at will!

Barry45RPM

The 5 speed is the smoother transmission of the 2 transmissions, but the 7 speed is what they're using now. I have an 07 550, which has been the best car I have ever owned. Mine now has 67,000 miles on the odo.

The car was purchased new in 07 with an extended warranty (MB) which I used for 2 open transmission repairs in the last month of coverage. (Valve Body repairs and 4th gear bands.) A modern car should not have needed either of those 2 repairs at 65,000 miles, and they would have been expensive repairs.

At 65,000 miles, I would have traded the car in and walked away if it were not under warranty rather than pay that huge repair bill.

These cars are expensive to maintain and repair... but nothing rides like a E Class. Again.... If you've got the bread to maintain a car like this without letting expensive repairs (when they arise) eat your guts up, you will really enjoy the car.

The first repair thct comes my way ($2200 or more on this car, depending on if it is a normal wear item or a sock in the eye) and I'm going to get out.

I'd go with the 2007 for the most likely enjoyable ownership experience for you.

Plutoe

If you can't or wont fix things yourself any used car is a crap shoot.

Although I appreciate your effort to eliminate all the supposed big things, like balance shaft, which is not a DIY---thats the only thing I would be concerned with, except like all options, they are mechanical and eventually go bad, why anyone outside the snow belt would purchase a 4matic is beyond me------what ever you do choose wisely!!

dothetime

As an owner of a 2007 E350, my CPO warranty is up September 29, forget it.
My extended MB warranty cost me $1900, and I would estimate I have received about $7,000
dollars of repairs in the 5 years I have owned my car.
Great car to drive and super safe, but very expensive to maintain.
I have just had my second a/c evaporator replaced, 90,000 miles at $2,000 each, fuel tank replaced, a/c fan motor, motor mounts, cps, and so on.
And my car is one of the better ones!
Not to mention $300 tires, $300 alignment(camber bolts replaced)
I try to most of my own maintenance, oil changes, brakes etc.
I love my benz, but I don't think my next purchase will be another one.
Dave

homeofstone

Do a google search on the balance shaft problem engines. I have seen several sources for the engine number series. Or call your MB dealer and ask for the info, they have it in the service department.

06E5004ME

To tell you the truth, all European cars require extra care and preventative maintenance. I will not be able to continue to fix my car next year and will be getting a CPO Lexus. As much of a "fanboy" of German cars that I am, I can't argue with Toyota's reliability. Look at the resale values of Lexus vs. Audi, BMW, and Mercedes. There is a reason why a 91 Lexus LS is still worth some money while a 91 S class is worthless. I'd suggest looking into a GS for you. The ride is great and could be better equipped than an average 211.

surfingva

Thanks to everyone for the responses.

I am having such a left brain/right brain dissonance right now, it's not even funny. On one hand, I'm thinking go for it and things will work out; how can you go wrong with the MB, especially the black on with the soft leather interior and the nice seats that feel better than any couch I've ever been on. On the other hand, I'm thinking, are you crazy considering a 10 year old car for which $3k repairs appear to be the norm (remember when you were so upset having to spent $400 to repair a fuel pump in the van)?

The E-500/350 vehicles look great and drive wonderfully. In particular the acceleration on the 500 is amazing and some of the models I've looking at are like works of art with the soft leather interior and the classy cabin layout. These cars look and drive like new, even though they are 10 years old. On the other hand, the money just doesn't add up. I can probably afford it financially (including repairs), and could do a lot of the repairs/maintenance myself, but not sure I can afford the time, neither do I particularly enjoy spending time to fix a car; There is also the issue of the older cars' electronic conveniences being behind; I would have to spent $500 to get a bluetooth adapter, to say nothing about dealing with yesterday's nav system etc., at the end all the little things add up.

I have considered a multitude of other vehicles, anything from a Volt (I know, quite a difference from the 15 mpg E500), a GTI or Jetta, even a Dodge Charger (talk about straight line acceleration), and they each have pros and cons. The low price of the MB (and my imprinted fondness for MB) lured me into considering them but the ongoing cost (money and time) just doesn't up.

So I am leaning to just walking away, at least for a few weeks and rethinking this while expanding my search parameters a bit. I test drove a VW GTI and a Jetta, and don't get me wrong the E500 drive is sweet, but after driving the GTI I had a grin in my face to the point my wife thought there was something wrong with me. A new Jetta GLI with extended warranty (to almost 100k miles) will run less than $30k and even if I throw the car away at the end of that 10 years, my yearly cost will be around $3k, and the likelihood of that working out is pretty darn high (except for wasted time in case of repairs). It's no E500 but it has its own positives.

@06E5004ME: even though I have driven toyota's, I just can't see myself in a Lexus; don't know why but I would go for an American car instead. Weird how the brain works (or doesn't).

homeofstone

I also considered an Infinity G35 or G46.

apl175

I think if you don't enjoy fixing a car (even if capable), then you have made the right decision in walking away for now. I know for me - and many others, it is a combination of the satisfaction of fixing something, plus knowing that you've saved a few dollars that makes a used MB economically feasible. There are many things on these cars that would take hundreds of dollars in labor to replace or fix at dealer or other retail level, that one could do on their own - but only if you had the inclination.

I know it sounds really silly to suggest, but have you looked at the new 2014 Chevy Impala? Consumer Reports and other reviewers have given it superior reviews recently, and imply that it's now in the running with the Acuras and Jaguars of the world.

The Thomas J

Really? Why?

surfingva

I don't mean to speak for E55Greasemonkey but my position on that is that the 4-wheel drive adds complexity, weight, robs a bit of horsepower all for a feature that is rarely needed.

surfingva

On that end, I would be more interested in the Volt, but I'll take a look.

Barry45RPM

Not selling well at all even though State, Federal and GM branches of the government are willing to pay people to buy one.

DubVBenz

Oh look, a bitter-as-**** red-assed republican. Who would have thought?

homeofstone

Correct

Here is an article from NBC news http://www.nbcnews.com/business/gm-s...les-6C10272201


Lets deal in facts and not name calling.

06E5004ME

While the weight and complexity is true, 4Matic is a pretty efficient system. I drove both and couldn't tell a difference in power delivery. Although on a 2012 S550 with 4Matic the car did seem a bit too heavy. But, if it does snow where you live, you can forget about driving the RWD open differential V8 car on all season tires.

06E5004ME

I'll speak for myself, but for $40k I can get 4 fresh used examples of Toyota Prius which will be generously optioned and will have no problems selling after I'm done with them. If you are looking into Volt, look into Prius too. I just drove an 06 model yesterday and while it is no 211, it is a decent car and 45MPG avg is not something I can brag about either.

E55Greasemonkey

As these cars age, the 4-matic increases potential repair costs. The 2wd version is the better choice unless you really need AWD.

The front CV axle boots tear; a new axle at the dealer requires an updated spindle assembly for a cost of around $5000 for both sides. There is probably a cheaper aftermarket solution though.

The transfer cases tend to leak oil.

The front suspension has more bushings than the 2WD version and tend to split and crack.

Decreased fuel mileage over the 2wd version.

And most important to me, as the 4-matic ages they tend not to drive good...clunks, vibrations, noises.. whereas the 2wd if properly maintained can drive as new at 150k+ miles.

Where do I get this info from? 11+ years an an MB Tech, 17 in the business

AMGAffalterbach

This is definitely not the case with over 100,000 miles on the clock... I have had boot tears but leaking CVs are common on many cars. You fix them and life goes on. Drives as well as any E55 or E550 RWD car I have been in, the transfer case has never leaked, no transmission issues, fuel economy is on par with most E550s I know from car meets, maybe this used to be the case with older generations but as a facelift W211 owner I completely disagree.

AMGAffalterbach

this makes no sense to me lol. Also, every GTI driver I've known has put a lot of money into their car as well as it is a German sports vehicle. They are cheaper than W211s to maintain but definitely well above what you would pay for an American car.

If you want cheap repair costs and very cheap parts, go with American-made vehicles and suffer refinement and possibly reliability. This is evident with recent Fords and Chevrolets that have had issues with their electronics and interface system. I have not been in an American car to date that has what I would consider an impressive interior. Overall, they are not very technologically advanced cars that might (in some cases) have straight-line performance but are ultimately so-so vehicles overall. Is this a very simplistic blanket statement? Yes, but American cars aren't something to brag about. Perfect example is the wonderful quality of GM paint, just do so research and you'll see what I mean. I would never buy one myself as long as I can afford to pay for non-domestic parts.

Japanese cars in this segment are very reliably engineered cars that can be fast or luxurious but never seem to excel at either specialty above Mercedes, Audi, and BMW marquees. I know Lexus has a cult following but I can't bring myself to say that Acura and Lexus are exceptional cars - they are good at what they do but are not something super special, yet they are very reliable and have moderate repair costs that are comparably lower.

German cars are like space ships - they can be extremely powerful and very technologically advanced, usually cutting edge but you sacrifice easy repairs and cost-effective ownership figures as they age with over-engineering at every component. I would like to make the analogy that your Japanese or American equivalent is like a crop duster airplane - does its job well and reliably but isn't anything to brag about. They are your A to B tool of transportation. Comparably, your German equivalents in the segment are bleeding-edge space vehicles, they will get you to the moon but it will cost you unearthly amounts of money to get there. This is somewhat true for VWs as they age but in any case they cost less than the German 3 mentioned before in cost of ownership. I personally love VWs and the hot-hatch scene here in Colorado is evidence of how versatile and great they are, but while they are a lower cost of ownership in most cases don't be fooled into thinking they are very cheap.

German cars, with the W211 being a perfect example, have traditionally longer maintenance intervals but will cost you more when you get there to do scheduled service. Overall it balances out fairly well. I do these scheduled services at the dealer for the 30 rust warranty MB offers as well as free road-side assistance with any Mercedes if you maintain your car at the dealership. Repairs and parts is where it gets very expensive - so if you can find a good independent Mercedes-exclusive shop you will still pay a lot for repairs but will be in a much better position overall when it comes to labor costs.

I made very sweeping generalizations that seemed very simplistic and childish in one sense, but I feel that these are generally true. With several notable exceptions, niche cars, and even recent iconic cars, American, Japanese, and German cars seem to follow these philosophies and trends. There are exceptions to each rule but when talking about the cars in the segments he is looking at this has held true for many many vehicles. Feel free to disagree with me but this is my take on it. As for hybrids, they are truly for people that don't think about the big picture. They cost more initially and will offset fuel savings for a similarly equipped gasoline or diesel car (get a diesel VW if you want the best combination of cost effectiveness and insane fuel economy), they are worse for the environment because of the lithium battery manufacturing process, they place carbon emissions further back in the supply chain but are equally as bad as gas-burners, and I don't consider you a car enthusiast if you drive one because frankly they are very unexciting, dull, and ugly cars that I love to blast by on the highway with a German V8 exhaust note.

Is he wrong though? CAFE laws will be the demise of the US car culture if the trend continues, do a bit of research and find that president Obama's policies are nothing but a joke when it comes to fuel efficiency. Plus that Cash-for-Clunkers initiative was insanely stupid. Did you read the article on the home page of MBWorld? It's predicted Mercedes V8s will no longer be offered by 2017, replaced by I6s because of emissions regulations... cars aren't the issue, it's industry. Why are we standing for a government taking away our right to enjoy high-horsepower cars when industry is polluting more than we ever will? Plus MB, Audi, and BMW are unfairly fined millions each year due to fleet fuel efficiency averages yet they have to pay these fines to be able to sell in the US market thanks to the government. This is very off topic but still relevant to the future of the car market and what we can except from progressive-socialist policy.

The Thomas J

Ok...Thanks for clearing that up. I thought there was some massive catostrophic failure with these units I wasn't aware of.

For me the 4matic was a must have. My BMW while not quite useless when it snows can quickly become useless if more than 2-3 inch's fall. I had no desire to buy another SUV. My significant other drives a 05' Toyota 4runner with AWD/4WD & that thing is a tank. But it's not always available to me.

Not to get to off topic. Recently I had to have an exaust issue on the 4runner repaired & while on the lift I noticed her front axles are starting to leak. The boots aren't torn but there is an issue. 8 years, 140,000 miles with a v8 it runs great. Survived being submerged up to it's hood in Sandy. It's a great truck.

I agree all these cars/trucks & SUV's all develop some issue as they get older no matter how well they are maintained.