SBC and NHTSA
02-10-2018, 05:47 PM
#151
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05-22-2018, 11:01 PM
#152
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'06 E320 CDI, '05 Audi A4 1.8T Cabriolet
Can anyone point me to somewhere that definitively indicates which models and model years have and do not have SBC? I just purchased a 2006 E320 CDI with 140k miles, and was wondering if this is something I need to prepare for, or if my car doesn't have that "feature" 
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Beirdo (05-24-2018)
05-24-2018, 12:47 AM
#154
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'06 E320 CDI, '05 Audi A4 1.8T Cabriolet
I hope the original owner was a cheapskate and didn't buy it... hehe. I guess I'll pop the hood tomorrow (been too busy!) and see if I see the SBC under the hood as I've seen in several Youtube videos. I'm hoping it's not there, but I guess we shall see.
Thanks for your reply
Thanks for your reply
05-24-2018, 10:27 AM
#155
Super Member
I hope the original owner was a cheapskate and didn't buy it... hehe. I guess I'll pop the hood tomorrow (been too busy!) and see if I see the SBC under the hood as I've seen in several Youtube videos. I'm hoping it's not there, but I guess we shall see.
Thanks for your reply
Thanks for your reply
05-24-2018, 10:52 AM
#156
Super Member
There are a bunch of assumptions here. I'm a new owner. I bought my w211 less than a year ago. The PO took the car to the dealer religiously since it left the lot in 2004. 82 service records to be exact. I have them all. No mention of SBC. Once I took ownership, I took it to another MB dealer to get an overall diagnostic. No mention of SBC. No service warnings in the 10 months I've owned it. My SBC failure was without warning and I blew threw a red light going 70mph. I only learned about SBC after an internet search after my deadly SBC incident.
05-24-2018, 11:16 AM
#157
Super Member
I'm now dealing with the SBC issue on my 2005 E320 CDI with just under 160,000 miles. I had the visit workshop notice for brakes (white warning). I specifically took it to the local MB dealer and told them I was there versus an interdependent shop to make sure I did not have an issue with my SBC unit. I was pretty sure I just needed front brake pads and possibly new rotors.
I was told a thorough inspection would be done and they would get back to me. I then received a VERY detailed list of suggested work need and recommended. Everything from a windshield ding, to motor mounts (which curiously were recently replaced at an independent shop), to the actual rotors and pads needed on the front. NO recommendation or notes about SBC issues.
I ok'd the front brake service and another minor issue for just under $900 in charges. I eventually got a call stating that the SBC failed on the test drive AFTER repairs were done and I needed to have additional repairs done to replace the SBC at the cost of $1960 which they claim is being offered at a discount of $1100!!!
I pushed back, they had me call MB customer care to ask for an extension of the 10 year warranty. They denied.
After some review, I asked if the techs disabled the SBC unit before replacing the pads. I was told that they did not as it is only required for the tech safety and it is the ONLY reason to do so...it does nothing to protect the pump. Yes, I have that in a text from the dealership.
I have been told that if the pads are forced back into the caliper with SBC still enabled, it causes an issue with the accumulator that can cause the failure they are describing.
Does anyone have any support of this theory?
I offered to pay $700 towards the repair to get it resolved and avoid a drawn out fight but they aren't willing to make any adjustments. I escalated to the head of service and was told he was checking with MB and I should know more Monday.
I feel like I've been a victim, at best, of a dealership screwing up and expecting me to pay for it, or at worst, a dishonest attempt to blackmail me into paying more after other repairs were done. My thoughts are it was an honest mistake by their tech, but I don't think I should cover the entire costs.
Regardless, I have car stuck at the dealership pending resolution.
If anyone has any helpful suggestions to help with a reasonable resolution, I would appreciate the comments.
I'm even open to a correction of my idea that the failure to deactivate the SBC unit prior to pad install caused the failure.
I was told a thorough inspection would be done and they would get back to me. I then received a VERY detailed list of suggested work need and recommended. Everything from a windshield ding, to motor mounts (which curiously were recently replaced at an independent shop), to the actual rotors and pads needed on the front. NO recommendation or notes about SBC issues.
I ok'd the front brake service and another minor issue for just under $900 in charges. I eventually got a call stating that the SBC failed on the test drive AFTER repairs were done and I needed to have additional repairs done to replace the SBC at the cost of $1960 which they claim is being offered at a discount of $1100!!!
I pushed back, they had me call MB customer care to ask for an extension of the 10 year warranty. They denied.
After some review, I asked if the techs disabled the SBC unit before replacing the pads. I was told that they did not as it is only required for the tech safety and it is the ONLY reason to do so...it does nothing to protect the pump. Yes, I have that in a text from the dealership.
I have been told that if the pads are forced back into the caliper with SBC still enabled, it causes an issue with the accumulator that can cause the failure they are describing.
Does anyone have any support of this theory?
I offered to pay $700 towards the repair to get it resolved and avoid a drawn out fight but they aren't willing to make any adjustments. I escalated to the head of service and was told he was checking with MB and I should know more Monday.
I feel like I've been a victim, at best, of a dealership screwing up and expecting me to pay for it, or at worst, a dishonest attempt to blackmail me into paying more after other repairs were done. My thoughts are it was an honest mistake by their tech, but I don't think I should cover the entire costs.
Regardless, I have car stuck at the dealership pending resolution.
If anyone has any helpful suggestions to help with a reasonable resolution, I would appreciate the comments.
I'm even open to a correction of my idea that the failure to deactivate the SBC unit prior to pad install caused the failure.
05-24-2018, 01:29 PM
#158
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1922 Ford Model T / no OBD
I replaced pads on SBC 2 or 3 times and never had a problem with pushing tow button, locking the car and securing the remotes from accidental activation.
But I always open the bleeder when pushing the pistons in and dump the fluid outside.
It is the piston when most of contamination occur and pushing the dirt back into hydraulic unit is not my idea of good service.
That said IMHO reading the pedal count is the first thing technician should do testing the car and it is really amazing that dealers still don't do it.
Unless somebody will slam them with class action suit, they might to continue the negligence.
But I always open the bleeder when pushing the pistons in and dump the fluid outside.
It is the piston when most of contamination occur and pushing the dirt back into hydraulic unit is not my idea of good service.
That said IMHO reading the pedal count is the first thing technician should do testing the car and it is really amazing that dealers still don't do it.
Unless somebody will slam them with class action suit, they might to continue the negligence.
05-24-2018, 05:36 PM
#159
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'06 E320 CDI, '05 Audi A4 1.8T Cabriolet
Now that I am aware of the potential danger, I will be definitely practicing slowing the vehicle without the brake pedal. I'd rather be unnecessarily prepared than to drive into other vehicles or the sidewalk full of people... or a wall...
05-24-2018, 09:44 PM
#160
Super Member
I replaced pads on SBC 2 or 3 times and never had a problem with pushing tow button, locking the car and securing the remotes from accidental activation.
But I always open the bleeder when pushing the pistons in and dump the fluid outside.
It is the piston when most of contamination occur and pushing the dirt back into hydraulic unit is not my idea of good service.
That said IMHO reading the pedal count is the first thing technician should do testing the car and it is really amazing that dealers still don't do it.
Unless somebody will slam them with class action suit, they might to continue the negligence.
But I always open the bleeder when pushing the pistons in and dump the fluid outside.
It is the piston when most of contamination occur and pushing the dirt back into hydraulic unit is not my idea of good service.
That said IMHO reading the pedal count is the first thing technician should do testing the car and it is really amazing that dealers still don't do it.
Unless somebody will slam them with class action suit, they might to continue the negligence.
05-24-2018, 10:08 PM
#161
Super Member
I don't appreciate the patronizing tone here. If I do in fact have the SBC system in my car, I count that as unfortunate. Having a crucial braking system that is clearly not properly fault-tolerant is what I would consider a fatal design flaw in these vehicles. It may have superior stopping power while it works, but if/when it fails, there is practically no braking power to be had, and this can come on suddenly and with no warning. That is what has been reported by several people in this thread, having had it happen to them personally. If that doesn't give you some pause, you are a lot more trusting than I am.
Now that I am aware of the potential danger, I will be definitely practicing slowing the vehicle without the brake pedal. I'd rather be unnecessarily prepared than to drive into other vehicles or the sidewalk full of people... or a wall...
Now that I am aware of the potential danger, I will be definitely practicing slowing the vehicle without the brake pedal. I'd rather be unnecessarily prepared than to drive into other vehicles or the sidewalk full of people... or a wall...
05-24-2018, 10:51 PM
#162
Super Member
I replaced pads on SBC 2 or 3 times and never had a problem with pushing tow button, locking the car and securing the remotes from accidental activation.
But I always open the bleeder when pushing the pistons in and dump the fluid outside.
It is the piston when most of contamination occur and pushing the dirt back into hydraulic unit is not my idea of good service.
That said IMHO reading the pedal count is the first thing technician should do testing the car and it is really amazing that dealers still don't do it.
Unless somebody will slam them with class action suit, they might to continue the negligence.
But I always open the bleeder when pushing the pistons in and dump the fluid outside.
It is the piston when most of contamination occur and pushing the dirt back into hydraulic unit is not my idea of good service.
That said IMHO reading the pedal count is the first thing technician should do testing the car and it is really amazing that dealers still don't do it.
Unless somebody will slam them with class action suit, they might to continue the negligence.
Last edited by ot1; 10-10-2018 at 07:48 PM.
05-25-2018, 12:23 AM
#163
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'06 E320 CDI, '05 Audi A4 1.8T Cabriolet
Consider this: You are not going to stop the vehicle by any other means (unless you plow into something) but in the course of interacting with traffic you will have press the brake pedal to stop and if its true that there is no pre-warning that the brakes just fail then you are safer applying the brakes ahead of the stop because that would be when the RED warning will pop up according to some. So delaying pressing the brake pedal is only going to increase your risk of not stopping in time. And I am not patroning you, I have experience for 10 years with my SBC car and its a great system, I have driven 100’s of different vehicles and I think it is superior to others. And don’t be fooled, any vehicle can have the brakes fail without warning and cause longer stopping distances. There is a video on You Tube of someone purposely disabling the SBC, try to watch it.
Yes, the brake system WHEN WORKING may be superior to others on the market, but the utter lack of usable backup for when the system fails was a calculated risk, and one that puts us all in danger. I'm not worried just about "longer stopping distances". I'm worried about essentially having NO brakes, which is a very rare happening on modern vehicles, and something that I intend to prepare myself for being able to handle as safely as possible on my vehicle which I otherwise love and trust.
I have watched the bogus video on YouTube where the dude unplugged the SBC but left the E-brake on for the entire "test" and then decided that he could stop no problem.... That's a bogus test unless you expect that you will be driving 100% of the time with the E-brake latched on. It was a failed scenario, and that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about the SBC spontaneously failing while driving at speed, and how dangerous that is. I think I put more credence into the experiences of others on this forum than some random dude on YouTube doing his best to disprove what others have experienced. Sorry.
05-25-2018, 01:39 PM
#164
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1922 Ford Model T / no OBD
You have at least 3 back-up systems on SBC so I am not buying somebody HAD to slow down using gears.
The system has additional battery for electrical failures, than mechanical back-up in case SBC pump fails, than you still have EMERGENCY brake who is purely mechanical so its failure is unheard about.
Point is that American drivers are spoil to power brakes and in case they have to really push the pedal, they panic and assume brake failed.
Beside driving cars with no power brakes in Europe, it happen to me that PS pump on my 7 tons motorhome broke up in the mountains.
I drove the 7 ton beast home with no power brakes and no power steering. The 200 miles trip did my biceps pretty impressive and I was fully aware that in case of idiot cutting in front of me and slamming brakes - I would not be able to stop, but life is always full of risk no matter what you do.
SBC or ABC, I always advise all friends to drive to empty lot and do some testing how the car reacts with no power assistance. Again all cars have back-ups and are drivable, but it is overcoming panic that is the biggest issue.
Newer models have electric PS, let's wait for those to start failing...
The system has additional battery for electrical failures, than mechanical back-up in case SBC pump fails, than you still have EMERGENCY brake who is purely mechanical so its failure is unheard about.
Point is that American drivers are spoil to power brakes and in case they have to really push the pedal, they panic and assume brake failed.
Beside driving cars with no power brakes in Europe, it happen to me that PS pump on my 7 tons motorhome broke up in the mountains.
I drove the 7 ton beast home with no power brakes and no power steering. The 200 miles trip did my biceps pretty impressive and I was fully aware that in case of idiot cutting in front of me and slamming brakes - I would not be able to stop, but life is always full of risk no matter what you do.
SBC or ABC, I always advise all friends to drive to empty lot and do some testing how the car reacts with no power assistance. Again all cars have back-ups and are drivable, but it is overcoming panic that is the biggest issue.
Newer models have electric PS, let's wait for those to start failing...
Last edited by kajtek1; 05-25-2018 at 01:47 PM.
05-26-2018, 07:31 PM
#165
Super Member
Emergency brake to slow the vehicle down.
@Beirdo, its rather ridiculous that you are going to make a habit of slowing down your SBC vehicle by applying the emergency brake, just in case the SBC is going to fail sometime in the future. First of all the emergency brake is not designed for use in that manner, front brakes are designed to apply most of braking power due to weigh transfer when stopping maybe up to 80% vs the rear brakes. The emergency brake is not hydraulic, uses shoes instead of the caliper. You will increase your chances of a collision because now one hand is on the gear shift downshifting and the other hand is on the E brake release but who is steering the car? Unless you have a third arm, even relying on your passenger to steer is dangerous. If you love your car as tou say, but don’t trust it, have your brakes serviced immediatey when you get the white warning or think about selling it. But your imposed method of using the E brake to slow down all the time is not the solution to avoid your fear of SBC failure and really not a safe practice especially since your hands won’t be on the steering wheel and its difficult to steer with your knees.
05-26-2018, 07:50 PM
#166
Super Member
@Beirdo, in the Youtube video the driver did not have the emergency brake applied the whole time he was demonstrating SBC failure. He applied it because SBC failure would not let him take the car out of PARK. So he applied it because he had to put the car in NEUTRAL first in order to get the vehicle in drive. But then he released it to drive off. It is said the car will not upshift in fail mode so he couldn’t demonstrate a higher speed stop. Since it also disconnected the speedometer we couldn’t see what speed he got it up to. But all the stopping was with the SBC backup mode and NOT the E brake.
05-27-2018, 10:25 AM
#167
Super Member
When does one get these warnings?
My vehicle has 155k miles on the original SBC. I've had four red blinking SBC failures with no white warnings whatsoever. Luckily only one of them was at high speed and resulted in a dangerous situation. I only learned that the SBC has a service limit by reading up on this forum.
Yes, I have filed with the NHSTA. Thanks
My vehicle has 155k miles on the original SBC. I've had four red blinking SBC failures with no white warnings whatsoever. Luckily only one of them was at high speed and resulted in a dangerous situation. I only learned that the SBC has a service limit by reading up on this forum.
Yes, I have filed with the NHSTA. Thanks
05-27-2018, 06:49 PM
#168
Super Member
When does one get these warnings?
My vehicle has 155k miles on the original SBC. I've had four red blinking SBC failures with no white warnings whatsoever. Luckily only one of them was at high speed and resulted in a dangerous situation. I only learned that the SBC has a service limit by reading up on this forum.
Yes, I have filed with the NHSTA. Thanks
My vehicle has 155k miles on the original SBC. I've had four red blinking SBC failures with no white warnings whatsoever. Luckily only one of them was at high speed and resulted in a dangerous situation. I only learned that the SBC has a service limit by reading up on this forum.
Yes, I have filed with the NHSTA. Thanks
05-27-2018, 07:49 PM
#169
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2013 ML350 Bluetec
To say the brakes go from 100% to 5% in an instant implies that one is using 100% of the brakes all the time. I've used 100% of the brake abilities on my car one time in 3 years, but the stupid deer did a backflip over my hood anyway. An unusual sight that I got to see up close because my eyes were pretty much popped out of my head and stuck to the inside of the windshield thanks to the absolutely phenomenal braking the car was undergoing at the time... Usually I'm using more like 25%.
That said, I'm pretty conscious of using the brakes on this car in particular: minimizing brake switch clicks, using gentle but constant brakes when coming to stops, dropping a gear (or two or three) when going downhill, etc. I also generally don't let other drivers use the car because I don't care to have them experience the failure when/if it happens.
Beirdo, you might consider dumping this car. If you find the risk to be as unacceptable as your posts imply, why live with it?
That said, I'm pretty conscious of using the brakes on this car in particular: minimizing brake switch clicks, using gentle but constant brakes when coming to stops, dropping a gear (or two or three) when going downhill, etc. I also generally don't let other drivers use the car because I don't care to have them experience the failure when/if it happens.
Beirdo, you might consider dumping this car. If you find the risk to be as unacceptable as your posts imply, why live with it?
Last edited by rapidoxidation; 05-27-2018 at 07:52 PM.
05-27-2018, 08:28 PM
#170
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'99 and '05 E55 AMG
True story. One of my coworkers was driving in to work; everything fine, no issues with the brakes ever in the past. That morning, coming up on the traffic light, he hit the brakes and...nothing! He was activating the parking brake and trying to downshift like crazy and barely avoided ramming into the rear of the car in front of him stopped at the light. Close call but he made it.
His car?
A Toyota Camry.
A piece of road debris bent a bracket and that moved a brake line where, over the weeks/months, a rotating part abraded the line.
Like rapidoxidation said, if you find the risk unacceptable, why live with it? Monitor the SBC system. I've posted on how to check this and so have others. Monitor the health and be prepared to service the system before it fails. FWIW, I would bet the techs run just a "quick test" which only gives fault codes. If none exist, they believe all is well not knowing that the system's pump life will hit the redline limits in 72 hours. I doubt they are expected to check solenoid actuations, pump actuations, estimated pump life remaining, and pre-tensioning reservoir pressure. Either instruct them to do so and provide you the results or do so yourself. Replace if any are close to the limits. This isn't rocket science....
His car?
A Toyota Camry.
A piece of road debris bent a bracket and that moved a brake line where, over the weeks/months, a rotating part abraded the line.
Like rapidoxidation said, if you find the risk unacceptable, why live with it? Monitor the SBC system. I've posted on how to check this and so have others. Monitor the health and be prepared to service the system before it fails. FWIW, I would bet the techs run just a "quick test" which only gives fault codes. If none exist, they believe all is well not knowing that the system's pump life will hit the redline limits in 72 hours. I doubt they are expected to check solenoid actuations, pump actuations, estimated pump life remaining, and pre-tensioning reservoir pressure. Either instruct them to do so and provide you the results or do so yourself. Replace if any are close to the limits. This isn't rocket science....
Last edited by bbirdwell; 05-27-2018 at 08:30 PM.
08-22-2018, 11:20 AM
#172
FYI
a recent change has been done on warranty coverage for SBC Hydraulic Units for MY2003-2006 Model 211, MY2006 Model 219 and MY 2003-2012 Models 230/231 was extended from 4 years / 50k miles to 25 years unlimited miles.
The extended warranty also applies to MY2004-2012 Model 240 and MY2005-2009 Model 199.
If you encounter an issue with SBC, please check with your local authorized Mercedes Benz dealership for details.
a recent change has been done on warranty coverage for SBC Hydraulic Units for MY2003-2006 Model 211, MY2006 Model 219 and MY 2003-2012 Models 230/231 was extended from 4 years / 50k miles to 25 years unlimited miles.
The extended warranty also applies to MY2004-2012 Model 240 and MY2005-2009 Model 199.
If you encounter an issue with SBC, please check with your local authorized Mercedes Benz dealership for details.
08-22-2018, 12:14 PM
#175
Senior Member
Dang it. 18 months ago, I spent $2000 at the local dealer to fix the SBC on my 2004 E500 after the brakes totally failed. New SBC, etc. Unreal. I complained directly to Mercedes, aggressively, and they offered zero.
