TPAbnz

The MBUSA web site for th E '05 CDI says the following on standard features:

"M-B Tex upholstery with leather front seating inserts."

This is different from the '04 E320 description which says leather inserts at seating surfaces.

Are they kidding? Are we supposed to use a microscope to find out what's been removed between model years?

MBE55AMG

I'm not sure. I hope it was a misspelling... a LOT has been altered in MY05.

TPAbnz

Here's the link, it's under "Seating and Trim":

http://www.mbusa.com/brand/container...CDI&class=05_E

jyg e500 maybe

its a desiel thing, most desiels cam only with m-b tex ( plastic) for years. But the rear seats, unless you order full leather are m-b tex on cdi,.I do not think that is so on 05 regular e320/

khaug

My 2004 E-Class sales brochure has a sticker affixed to the rear cover, which says in part: "...the following product changes may have occurred at different production times during the model year:...The standard upholstery on E320 models includes leather front seat inserts with M-B Tex trim, and full M-B Tex rear upholstery."

There are nine other changes. The one that really hurts me: "The front brakes on E320 models use single-piston floating calipers." So M-B has chosen to cheapen the brakes on the car. For shame, M-B!

-Karl

DavidNJ

This was dealt with before. MB "Leather Twin" option, 400EUR in Germany and standard on US E320s, has leather ONLY for the the center strips on the front seats. This is the same on the C-class.

The premium leather does the whole seat front and rear, the door armrests, and the insert in the center for the door in leather. The wood/leather wheel also covers the wheel hub in leather.

VISUALLY, it is hard to distinguish between the two. Look through the closed window in a dealer's lot, and they look the same (except for the panel in the center of the door). However, they are very different to touch.

The Premium Leather, probably a misuse of the word 'premium', is standard on the E500 and required for ventilated seats. In '04 it was included in the E320 Appearance Package, however that seems to have changed for '05.

HELL ONA HARLEY

The e320 has always had the large single puck design in the front... The e500 has the 4 puck system. This has been brought up in the past. Check out the search feature for more info.

DavidNJ

All BMWs are single piston floating calipers. We should keep our braking issues clear:

-floating calipers have pistons on one side and the caliper slides in a metal frame to provide equal force on both sides. There is some hysterisis in the system caused by the friction between the parts that can add inprecision to the brake feel. That said, BMWs and Corvettes, rarely critizied for their brakes, have floating calipers on all models including the M5.

-Multiple pistons allow a longer pad for a given height. They also let a higher overall clamping force happen with lower brake line pressure. The later shouldn't be an issue for any reasonable weight street vehicle. Too big a caliper can actually cause cooling problems by concealing the rotor.

-Floating rotors mount the rotors on pins to allow it to expand at a different rate than the hub. Really nice to have with aluminum hubs. Very rare on street cars. Pretty rare on race cars. On the European E39 M5 however not on the US version. BMW was concerned that 10 years down the road, the third and fourth owners of cars they bought for $10k wouldn't spend the $$$$ required for maintenance.

-Coefficent of friction is very important in brake forces generated. It is a function of the pad compound and rotor. Also related is a how linearly the pad and rotor react to temperature changes and how linearly the grab and release. I don't know much about street cars here however on oval track cars everyone has their own opinion. People run 20 year old compunds (PFC 83s) because they think they feel better and let them brake deeper. I use PFC 01 compound all around on PFC rotors (which are very trick and dry machined so there is no oil).

-Implementation quaility is at the top of the list. That is why BMW brakes work well even though they are low tech. Everything has to be straight and rigid. Many, many 4-piston calipers are made of silly puddy. Brembo and AP are not. Looking at the caliper, note where the bolts are holding the halves together. If they are not below the pad on the outside the caliper is probably nothing special. If the bridge between the halves is not solid it also probably weak. Again look at Brembo and AP. PFC just came out with a SOLID caliper...one piece (I bet maintenance is a pain.) US Brake as a racing caliper where the halves on the bridge interlock, taking the load away from the bolts.

Net...with all the electronics in an SBC brake system, I wouldn't worry about the calipers.

HELL ONA HARLEY

Nice insight.... Here is the set of the Brembo 4 puck differential bore set-up I run on my Harley. They include Brembo 13.0" floating rotors... The best up grade I've done yet ($1700.00).....

DavidNJ

Nice brakes, and if those foot rests would let you lean into the corners after you braked...

HELL ONA HARLEY

Yea... Them footboards will keep you honest, But believe it or not Ive got a 30 degree lean angle on the left and a 31 degree lean angle on the right.... Plenty for a 710 lb scoot (dry)...

TPAbnz

Would you be kind enought to post the 9 other changes they list?

khaug

Would you be kind enought to post the 9 other changes they list?

Okay, here's all the changes listed on the sticker on my '04 E-Class brochure:

Since the original printing of this 2004 E-Class brochure, the following product changes may have occurred at different production times during the model year:

- The illuminated entry system does not include entrance lamps beneath the side mirrors.

- The front center armrest storage compartment is not climate-controlled.

- The standard sedan audio system inlcudes 9 speakers, no subwoofer.

- The standard upholstery on E320 models includes leather front seating inserts with M-B Tex trim, and full M-B Tex rear-seat upholstery.

- The front passenger seat does not include adjustable lumbar support.

- The windshield washers are heated only at the nozzles. The reservoir and hose are no longer heated. The rear window washer on wagon models is no longer heated.

- The windshield is tinted but does not include a shaded upper band.

- In addition, the finish appearance of the wheels, interior door trim and seat trim, and the configuration of the climate-control dashtop diffuser vent may have changed.

- The front brakes on E320 models use single-piston floating calipers.

- See your dealer for details.

-Karl

ajm0824

[QUOTE=khaug
- The standard sedan audio system inlcudes 9 speakers, no subwoofer.

- In addition, the finish appearance of the wheels, interior door trim and seat trim, and the configuration of the climate-control dashtop diffuser vent may have changed.

-Karl[/QUOTE]

- Standard audio system or Harmon Kardon?
- Change of wheels? Ano more info avail?

Thanks.

khaug

DavidNJ: Nice treatise on brakes - thanks.

I'd like to add a comment or two from my perspective of 18 years as a driving instructor for two commercial performance driving schools (Tracktime and Trackmasters), Porsche club and BMW club:

All things being equal, multiple-piston (non-floating) calipers will perform better in every respect than single-piston floating calipers. I've found that BMW brakes are much more prone to problems on racetracks than their Porsche counterparts. The primary offenders are the oem E46 M3 brakes, which will go away entirely after one stop from high speed (150 mph). The brakes on the E36 series also need attention (improved pads, frequent fluid changes, air ducts, etc.) to survive on track. Porsche brakes, which are 2 or 4-piston-caliper designs, seldom give problems unless severely neglected.

I no longer ask owners of recent Porsches about their brakes when beginning to ride with them - they are invariably adequate for track use. BMWs, however, either get a warning or queries about fluid and pad changes, air ducts, etc. This is a product of my experience. Corvette drivers get an initial warning and queries, and I still feel nervous for the first couple of sessions until the car/driver have demonstrated that they are capable.

The bottom line here is that I'm considerably disappointed that the E320 CDI I have on order, which is significantly faster and heavier than the gas version, still gets the cheaper brakes. Yeah, it probably won't matter a whit on the street, but it's not good engineering practice and it falls right in line with M-B's current philosophy of "Adequate is good enough".

FWIW, my track car is an '88 911 (dual-piston calipers F & R). My street car is an '00 BMW E39 528i (single-piston calipers F & R).

-Karl

DavidNJ

While I strongly agree that non-floating calipers are better, the BMW brake issues you describe seem to be related to pad material and cooling. Fade, unless it is catastrophic (Nascar at Martinsville, 750hp 3500# cars on a flat 1/2 mile with tight turns), is a pad material issue. Brake fluid is a cooling issue. The Cup cars used to use a brake fluid recirculator to keep changing the fluid in the caliper with cooler fluid.

The BMW 3-series is a heavier, taller (higher CG), and more front heavy car than the Porsche. Under hard braking it likely to transfer significantly weight, and have significantly more weight on the front wheels. And if the car has a wedge in it (unequal diagonal wheel weights), this could be further exaggerated. For example, and this is quick in my head math, a 3000# car with 60% rear weight, 100" wb, 20" cg, in a 1g stop would have 1800# on the front wheels, or about 60% of its braking. a 3500# car with 50% rear weight, 110" wb, 24" cg, in a 1g stop would have a little over 2500# on the front wheels, or about 73% of its braking.

Also Porsche may be using a fluid like Castrol LMP which basically doesn't absorb water so it lasts a VERY long time. With 600 deg fluids (I use Motul), we flush the system several times a year and bleed weekly (before every race, I am not racing weekly this year).

From a caliper design, the larger 6- and 8-piston calipers are more likely to cause a cooling problem by shielding the rotor than any of the rather small floating calipers.