CDI owners
08-08-2004, 12:32 PM
#1
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CDI owners
CDI'rs, what is the opinion of putting BD in our tanks. Will it void our warranty or more importantly damage our CDI engine? I have been looking into it however my sales guy at MB was unsure of it's implications.
TIA
see link:
http://www.biodiesel.com/
TIA
see link:
http://www.biodiesel.com/
08-08-2004, 10:24 PM
#2
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E-220CDI, VW Multivan 2.5TDI
Originally Posted by saffrontiger
CDI'rs, what is the opinion of putting BD in our tanks. Will it void our warranty or more importantly damage our CDI engine? I have been looking into it however my sales guy at MB was unsure of it's implications.
TIA
see link:
http://www.biodiesel.com/
TIA
see link:
http://www.biodiesel.com/
You need to order special parts to run biodiesel in a CDI. Not because of the engine but the hoses, gaskets,... the biodiesel will make them corrode faster. In Germany biodiesel is available a bit cheaper but most cars need to be modified. And with an aux heater... you will not use biodiesel as well... smokes as if the car is burning
So if you ordered the biodiesel modification with you E you're good to go. If not, better don't try this at home. I don't know the item # but it was around 160 Euros extra I think.
So far
Michael
08-09-2004, 03:18 AM
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'05 E320 CDI
I've been running some blend of biodiesel (primarily B20 but up to B50) in my CDI since day one. Before I first put biodiesel in my tank, I brought up the subject of biodiesel use and warranty with my sales person and he wasn't too concerned. The dealership isn't going to refuse a warranty repair for my wobbly passenger seat because I use biodiesel.
My personal interpretation of the warranty is that use of biodiesel could cause the warranty to not be honored should there be a problem attributed to the use of biodiesel. I'm willing to take the risk that 1) I'll have a fuel system related warranty issue and 2) the service department will figure out that I have been using a biodiesel blend and 3) attribute the problem to the biodiesel use.
One of the beautiful things about biodiesel is that it is not an all or nothing thing. You can blend with petrodiesel at any level. Since I'm still getting over the sticker shock of the car, I'm not ready to dive in all the way and use 100% biodiesel. For now, I've chosen to primarily use B20 (20% biodiesel/80% petrodiesel) because even at this level:
- The solvent effect of the biodiesel should have minimal impact on the hoses, gaskets etc
- The increased viscosity of the biodiesel should be negligible and not cause any problem with the fuel injectors/fuel spray pattern
- Hopefully the service techs at the dealer won't smell the biodiesel
- Lubricity and cetane rating of the fuel are increased compared to petrodiesel
- Reduced emissions compared to 100% petrodiesel
- Less reliance on non-renewable resources
My personal interpretation of the warranty is that use of biodiesel could cause the warranty to not be honored should there be a problem attributed to the use of biodiesel. I'm willing to take the risk that 1) I'll have a fuel system related warranty issue and 2) the service department will figure out that I have been using a biodiesel blend and 3) attribute the problem to the biodiesel use.
One of the beautiful things about biodiesel is that it is not an all or nothing thing. You can blend with petrodiesel at any level. Since I'm still getting over the sticker shock of the car, I'm not ready to dive in all the way and use 100% biodiesel. For now, I've chosen to primarily use B20 (20% biodiesel/80% petrodiesel) because even at this level:
- The solvent effect of the biodiesel should have minimal impact on the hoses, gaskets etc
- The increased viscosity of the biodiesel should be negligible and not cause any problem with the fuel injectors/fuel spray pattern
- Hopefully the service techs at the dealer won't smell the biodiesel
- Lubricity and cetane rating of the fuel are increased compared to petrodiesel
- Reduced emissions compared to 100% petrodiesel
- Less reliance on non-renewable resources
08-09-2004, 09:46 AM
#4
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Excellent replies. Thank you all. I'm amazed that BD has not been in the sptlight more. I don't know if I am willing to risk any warranty imnplications to run BD. Seems as though evryone has a different answer. I guess I will call MBUSA directly and ask for further insight.
08-09-2004, 10:56 AM
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E-220CDI, VW Multivan 2.5TDI
Originally Posted by samq
I've been running some blend of biodiesel (primarily B20 but up to B50) in my CDI since day one. Before I first put biodiesel in my tank, I brought up the subject of biodiesel use and warranty with my sales person and he wasn't too concerned. The dealership isn't going to refuse a warranty repair for my wobbly passenger seat because I use biodiesel.
My personal interpretation of the warranty is that use of biodiesel could cause the warranty to not be honored should there be a problem attributed to the use of biodiesel. I'm willing to take the risk that 1) I'll have a fuel system related warranty issue and 2) the service department will figure out that I have been using a biodiesel blend and 3) attribute the problem to the biodiesel use.
My personal interpretation of the warranty is that use of biodiesel could cause the warranty to not be honored should there be a problem attributed to the use of biodiesel. I'm willing to take the risk that 1) I'll have a fuel system related warranty issue and 2) the service department will figure out that I have been using a biodiesel blend and 3) attribute the problem to the biodiesel use.
A blend of petro- and biodiesel with a high % of petro shouldn't be a problem. As far as I know most (if not all) gas companies in Germany blend some (very little %) biodiesel in their petro because they save money.
But beleive me - if there is a problem with the fuel system (doesn't have to though), the service dept. WILL find out! At least if it is a costly warranty repair they start looking to find something. Even if the malfunction cannot be attributed to biodiesel... I assume they will tell you that your warranty is void. Or do you have anything on paper from your salesperson? Most of these "salespersons" do not know all standard features of the car and are just trying to sell, so why should your salesperson know anything about biodiesel? Just my 2 cents...
Originally Posted by samq
One of the beautiful things about biodiesel is that it is not an all or nothing thing. You can blend with petrodiesel at any level. Since I'm still getting over the sticker shock of the car, I'm not ready to dive in all the way and use 100% biodiesel. For now, I've chosen to primarily use B20 (20% biodiesel/80% petrodiesel) because even at this level:
- The solvent effect of the biodiesel should have minimal impact on the hoses, gaskets etc
- The increased viscosity of the biodiesel should be negligible and not cause any problem with the fuel injectors/fuel spray pattern
- Hopefully the service techs at the dealer won't smell the biodiesel
- Lubricity and cetane rating of the fuel are increased compared to petrodiesel
- Reduced emissions compared to 100% petrodiesel
- Less reliance on non-renewable resources
- The solvent effect of the biodiesel should have minimal impact on the hoses, gaskets etc
- The increased viscosity of the biodiesel should be negligible and not cause any problem with the fuel injectors/fuel spray pattern
- Hopefully the service techs at the dealer won't smell the biodiesel
- Lubricity and cetane rating of the fuel are increased compared to petrodiesel
- Reduced emissions compared to 100% petrodiesel
- Less reliance on non-renewable resources
Now, since it is your car and your money - good luck with this experiment. If it is successfull, please inform the forum - people in Germany could save a lot of $$$ by not ordering this code.
Oh - and check here (in German). A lot of companies even don't offer biodiesel upgrades, some for all their cars after a certain production date and VIN. The site also says that although VW gave the ok to biodiesel for their older cars (Seat, Audi, VW,...), the Bosch fuel injection pump gave them trouble. It took the cars 70.000km-100.000km before the problems occured, also after switching between petro and biodiesel or driving with a mixture. So you will have some time before you pump quits working
I would say... don't try to save the world or some $$$ - your car simply is NOT READY to use biodiesel.
Last edited by Mortenstein; 08-09-2004 at 11:05 AM.
08-09-2004, 11:21 AM
#6
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Thread Starter
Mortenstein,
You have persuaded me not to try this 'experiment' with BD. So much for doing my part in environmentalism LOL! At the risk of sounding like i'm preaching , I would love to see the day when we are less reliant on middle east petrol and start to really explore other avenues of energy. I for one purchased the CDI bc of diesels' economy, long lasting engines and of course torque
If we really wanted to make a change here in the US, we should look at Europe and the high percentage of diesels. Nox is a concern but I'm sure PM filters will evolve so that the enviro impact will be negligible once the "diesel" phenomenon catches on here. Thanks for listening and I will now step of my 'soapbox'. LOL :p
You have persuaded me not to try this 'experiment' with BD. So much for doing my part in environmentalism LOL! At the risk of sounding like i'm preaching , I would love to see the day when we are less reliant on middle east petrol and start to really explore other avenues of energy. I for one purchased the CDI bc of diesels' economy, long lasting engines and of course torque
If we really wanted to make a change here in the US, we should look at Europe and the high percentage of diesels. Nox is a concern but I'm sure PM filters will evolve so that the enviro impact will be negligible once the "diesel" phenomenon catches on here. Thanks for listening and I will now step of my 'soapbox'. LOL :p
08-09-2004, 11:27 AM
#7
Senior Member
Thread Starter
FYI RE ENERGY CONCERNS-CDI'rs
CDI'rs see the below :
Auto Industry Debates Virtues of Diesels vs. Hybrids
By DANNY HAKIM
TRAVERSE CITY, Mich., Aug. 4 - Automakers remain divided on whether diesel or hybrid cars are the best way to improve fuel efficiency, and the split is often drawn along cultural lines.
All the major manufacturers are developing cleaner diesel engines, hybrids and hydrogen fuel cells. But companies are pushing harder on different technologies to get a leg up in meeting regulations that are becoming tougher around the world, and their views were represented in comments made at a management conference here on Wednesday.
Toyota and Honda first developed hybrid-electric vehicles, in part because they save the most gasoline in the sort of stop-and-start driving that is common in the clogged traffic of densely populated Japan.
In a hybrid like the Toyota Prius, an electric motor takes over for the gas engine at low speeds and stops; energy is also preserved that is usually lost in braking.
But automakers in Europe are skeptical about how profitable hybrids can be and prefer diesel-powered vehicles because they offer car owners an alternative to high taxes on gasoline.
Environmental advocates remain cautious about diesels. Compared with conventional gasoline cars, they offer lower emissions of the kind that contribute to global warming but lag behind in emissions of smog-forming pollutants - though filtration technology is improving. New air-quality rules that will be in effect in the United States by the end of the decade will require diesel and gasoline engines to meet the same emission levels.
On Wednesday, Fujio Cho, Toyota's president, said his company would like to sell 300,000 hybrid electric vehicles next year, which would be about 4 percent of its worldwide production.
"It may be difficult for us to produce that many hybrids by that time, but we have another year to go, so we'll make every effort so we can live up to that goal," Mr. Cho said through an interpreter.
Next year, Toyota will sell three hybrids in the United States: its Prius car and hybrid versions of the Highlander and Lexus RX sport utility vehicles.
"We like to think of it as enlightened self-interest," Mr. Cho said. "If automakers don't reduce smog-forming emissions, greenhouse gases and the need for petroleum, I believe we won't be in business."
His comments came a day after Toyota said it would increase production of the Prius to 15,000 a month from 10,000 by early next year. Most of these will be shipped to the United States, where customers have been waiting six months and longer for the new Prius since its design was overhauled last year.
Tom LaSorda, chief operating officer of the Chrysler division of DaimlerChrysler, which includes Mercedes, said the company was still researching hybrids and had not settled on an offering beyond a small-volume version of its Ram pickup truck to be introduced in the fourth quarter.
"The other one we're really pushing on, and we think will work, is the diesel," he said. "We're starting to see a lot of responsiveness and positive market response from our dealers and customers out there that would like to drive clean diesels in the United States."
Later this year, Chrysler will start selling a diesel version of the Jeep Liberty sport utility vehicle, the first diesel other than a pickup to be offered by one of Detroit's Big Three automakers in a couple of decades.
"We're very fortunate," Mr. LaSorda said, "that we have Mercedes, one of the best diesel technology companies in the world, leading the way here. So we're just tapping into that."
Even the hybrid Ram will use a diesel engine. It will sell in very small numbers - about 100 will be made for businesses and other fleet customers.
Lawrence A. Denton, chief executive of Dura Automotive Systems, a supplier, urged the industry to work harder to improve fuel efficiency, which has stagnated since the mid-1980's amid booming sales of S.U.V.'s and big pickup trucks.
But he also criticized the toughening air-quality regulations.
"We're overpenalizing diesels," Mr. Denton said, adding, "Clearly, diesels are part of the solution, so you can't penalize them and expect to improve mileage."
Environmental advocates disagree.
"That's misleading," said David Friedman, senior analyst at the Union of Concerned Scientists, an environmental advocacy group. "You're not penalizing diesels; they're just put in the mix with all the other vehicles."
"If you want diesels to compete in the marketplace," he said, "they need to compete fairly and meet the same level of emission standards."
Environmental advocates prefer hybrid cars. On Wednesday, the Sierra Club issued a statement praising the Ford Motor Company, which is poised to become the world's first automaker to sell a hybrid sport utility vehicle, a version of its Escape S.U.V. The Sierra Club had previously been a persistent critic of Ford's environmental record.
"The hybrid Escape is a rolling advertisement for better technology and a cleaner environment," said David Hamilton, director of the global warming and energy program at the Sierra Club.
But another group was more critical. "If Ford wants to position itself as an environmental leader," said Jennifer Krill of the Rainforest Action Network, "it needs to do more than produce one improved vehicle in limited quantities."
Auto Industry Debates Virtues of Diesels vs. Hybrids
By DANNY HAKIM
TRAVERSE CITY, Mich., Aug. 4 - Automakers remain divided on whether diesel or hybrid cars are the best way to improve fuel efficiency, and the split is often drawn along cultural lines.
All the major manufacturers are developing cleaner diesel engines, hybrids and hydrogen fuel cells. But companies are pushing harder on different technologies to get a leg up in meeting regulations that are becoming tougher around the world, and their views were represented in comments made at a management conference here on Wednesday.
Toyota and Honda first developed hybrid-electric vehicles, in part because they save the most gasoline in the sort of stop-and-start driving that is common in the clogged traffic of densely populated Japan.
In a hybrid like the Toyota Prius, an electric motor takes over for the gas engine at low speeds and stops; energy is also preserved that is usually lost in braking.
But automakers in Europe are skeptical about how profitable hybrids can be and prefer diesel-powered vehicles because they offer car owners an alternative to high taxes on gasoline.
Environmental advocates remain cautious about diesels. Compared with conventional gasoline cars, they offer lower emissions of the kind that contribute to global warming but lag behind in emissions of smog-forming pollutants - though filtration technology is improving. New air-quality rules that will be in effect in the United States by the end of the decade will require diesel and gasoline engines to meet the same emission levels.
On Wednesday, Fujio Cho, Toyota's president, said his company would like to sell 300,000 hybrid electric vehicles next year, which would be about 4 percent of its worldwide production.
"It may be difficult for us to produce that many hybrids by that time, but we have another year to go, so we'll make every effort so we can live up to that goal," Mr. Cho said through an interpreter.
Next year, Toyota will sell three hybrids in the United States: its Prius car and hybrid versions of the Highlander and Lexus RX sport utility vehicles.
"We like to think of it as enlightened self-interest," Mr. Cho said. "If automakers don't reduce smog-forming emissions, greenhouse gases and the need for petroleum, I believe we won't be in business."
His comments came a day after Toyota said it would increase production of the Prius to 15,000 a month from 10,000 by early next year. Most of these will be shipped to the United States, where customers have been waiting six months and longer for the new Prius since its design was overhauled last year.
Tom LaSorda, chief operating officer of the Chrysler division of DaimlerChrysler, which includes Mercedes, said the company was still researching hybrids and had not settled on an offering beyond a small-volume version of its Ram pickup truck to be introduced in the fourth quarter.
"The other one we're really pushing on, and we think will work, is the diesel," he said. "We're starting to see a lot of responsiveness and positive market response from our dealers and customers out there that would like to drive clean diesels in the United States."
Later this year, Chrysler will start selling a diesel version of the Jeep Liberty sport utility vehicle, the first diesel other than a pickup to be offered by one of Detroit's Big Three automakers in a couple of decades.
"We're very fortunate," Mr. LaSorda said, "that we have Mercedes, one of the best diesel technology companies in the world, leading the way here. So we're just tapping into that."
Even the hybrid Ram will use a diesel engine. It will sell in very small numbers - about 100 will be made for businesses and other fleet customers.
Lawrence A. Denton, chief executive of Dura Automotive Systems, a supplier, urged the industry to work harder to improve fuel efficiency, which has stagnated since the mid-1980's amid booming sales of S.U.V.'s and big pickup trucks.
But he also criticized the toughening air-quality regulations.
"We're overpenalizing diesels," Mr. Denton said, adding, "Clearly, diesels are part of the solution, so you can't penalize them and expect to improve mileage."
Environmental advocates disagree.
"That's misleading," said David Friedman, senior analyst at the Union of Concerned Scientists, an environmental advocacy group. "You're not penalizing diesels; they're just put in the mix with all the other vehicles."
"If you want diesels to compete in the marketplace," he said, "they need to compete fairly and meet the same level of emission standards."
Environmental advocates prefer hybrid cars. On Wednesday, the Sierra Club issued a statement praising the Ford Motor Company, which is poised to become the world's first automaker to sell a hybrid sport utility vehicle, a version of its Escape S.U.V. The Sierra Club had previously been a persistent critic of Ford's environmental record.
"The hybrid Escape is a rolling advertisement for better technology and a cleaner environment," said David Hamilton, director of the global warming and energy program at the Sierra Club.
But another group was more critical. "If Ford wants to position itself as an environmental leader," said Jennifer Krill of the Rainforest Action Network, "it needs to do more than produce one improved vehicle in limited quantities."
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08-09-2004, 11:50 AM
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'08 AM Vantage V8 - '03 E500
Anyone know if a CDI using biodiesel would meet emissions requirements in California and the other no-CDI states? I seem to recall reading that the reason the CDI doesn't currently meet California emission standards is the sulphur in petrodiesel. DCX isn't likely to have a biodiesel CDI certified for California, though, if the petrodiesel version will be legal here in a year or so anyway. A pity, since I've heard that biodiesel exhaust smells sort of like french fries (chips, for our British friends).
08-09-2004, 12:21 PM
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E-220CDI, VW Multivan 2.5TDI
Originally Posted by DWP
Anyone know if a CDI using biodiesel would meet emissions requirements in California and the other no-CDI states? I seem to recall reading that the reason the CDI doesn't currently meet California emission standards is the sulphur in petrodiesel. DCX isn't likely to have a biodiesel CDI certified for California, though, if the petrodiesel version will be legal here in a year or so anyway. A pity, since I've heard that biodiesel exhaust smells sort of like french fries (chips, for our British friends).
I also cannot tell of any smell when using biodiesel. I tried it with my Multivan in Germany. I used slighty more gas (10-15%), the aux heater smoked a lot more but there was no smell. In the end I decided not to buy the biodiesel upgrade for my E because in the future there will be an alternative to gas and I will not ruin whatsoever on my car because of trying to save the world.
@saffrontiger:
You did a lot for the environment by byuing a CDI! The particular filter will keep the car clean. And compare miles/gallon on an E320 and an E320CDI. I also think it is way more fun to drive a MODERN diesel because of the torque it gives... makes you smile all the time
08-09-2004, 03:05 PM
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2019 Mercedes Benz S500L AMG Premium Plus
Originally Posted by saffrontiger
CDI'rs, what is the opinion of putting BD in our tanks. Will it void our warranty or more importantly damage our CDI engine? I have been looking into it however my sales guy at MB was unsure of it's implications.
TIA
see link:
http://www.biodiesel.com/
TIA
see link:
http://www.biodiesel.com/
Remember, you posted this last week?
http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/u...ts/willie.shtm
08-09-2004, 05:22 PM
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05 E320 CDI
Originally Posted by DWP
Anyone know if a CDI using biodiesel would meet emissions requirements in California and the other no-CDI states? I seem to recall reading that the reason the CDI doesn't currently meet California emission standards is the sulphur in petrodiesel. DCX isn't likely to have a biodiesel CDI certified for California, though, if the petrodiesel version will be legal here in a year or so anyway. A pity, since I've heard that biodiesel exhaust smells sort of like french fries (chips, for our British friends).
08-09-2004, 09:08 PM
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'05 E320 CDI
Before I put any biodiesel in my tank, I spent months researching it. I wasn't going to do anything to outright ruin my car. I concluded that there is a slight risk but I am willing to accept that risk so that I can make a difference. Some parts will likely have a shorter lifespan because of my biodiesel use, that doesn't bother me. Injectors, hoses, gaskets all need to be replaced eventually.
As for the warranty issues, I'm, not going to argue this, its not worth it. It is continuously debated over on tdiclub.com, go read the debates there if you're interested. In the end it's a matter of how much you believe in biodiesel. Those who believe in it don't worry about the warranty and fill the tank with biodiesel and know that they are making a difference.
Sounds like for now, it's just going to be me & Willie with biodiesel in our CDI's.
As for the warranty issues, I'm, not going to argue this, its not worth it. It is continuously debated over on tdiclub.com, go read the debates there if you're interested. In the end it's a matter of how much you believe in biodiesel. Those who believe in it don't worry about the warranty and fill the tank with biodiesel and know that they are making a difference.
Sounds like for now, it's just going to be me & Willie with biodiesel in our CDI's.
04-10-2008, 03:19 AM
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From the MBUSA website.
Mercedes-Benz USA now approves the use of B5 bio diesel (standard diesel with a maximum 5% bio diesel content) in all Common Rail Injection Diesel "CDI-engines." As bio-diesel can be refined from a variety of raw materials resulting in widely varying properties, the only approved bio diesel content is one that meets ASTM D6751 specification and that has additionally the necessary oxidation stability (min. 6H, proved with EN14112 method) to prevent damages to the system from deposits and/or corrosion. Please ask your service station for further information. If the B5 bio diesel blend is not sufficiently labeled to clearly indicate that it meets the above standards, please do not use it. The Mercedes-Benz limited warranty does not cover damage caused by the use of fuels not meeting Mercedes-Benz approved fuel standards.
Mercedes-Benz USA now approves the use of B5 bio diesel (standard diesel with a maximum 5% bio diesel content) in all Common Rail Injection Diesel "CDI-engines." As bio-diesel can be refined from a variety of raw materials resulting in widely varying properties, the only approved bio diesel content is one that meets ASTM D6751 specification and that has additionally the necessary oxidation stability (min. 6H, proved with EN14112 method) to prevent damages to the system from deposits and/or corrosion. Please ask your service station for further information. If the B5 bio diesel blend is not sufficiently labeled to clearly indicate that it meets the above standards, please do not use it. The Mercedes-Benz limited warranty does not cover damage caused by the use of fuels not meeting Mercedes-Benz approved fuel standards.
