Incendiary

Thanks, BudC and others. Plans have changed a little, and now it might be my mom who is getting the E320. I think she would rather an 05 (finance, drive till it dies), but I dunno. True, some decontenting and better reliability since it's a model year newer, but we'd lose free maintenance and we'd lose major money off discount. The cars I've seen so far from area dealers that are MY04 pretty much all have metallic paint, sunroof, heated seats, and either entertainment package or CD changer. No full leather, no Xenons, no nothing else. All RWD except for one 4matic. Miles range from 80ish to 300+ (that dealer claims it was driven from another dealership). I think I could easily get $3000 off invoice, and with some work could get close to $4k.

So, knowing that, and considering the options are basically fine (although colors are not), any suggestions? 04 vs 05?

BudC

The absolute most important thing is to get a car you can live with for a long time. In 10 years or so, the difference in price between the 2004 and the 2005 won't be so important.

I wouldn't make any decision based on the so-called free maintenance. I have a 2004 but that really never entered into my decision making process because it isn't all that much of a good deal.

As for the difference in quality between the 2004's and the 05's, I'd say that if the 2004 was built in March or later in 2004, that the quality would be as good as the 05's. There are some TSB's that might effect late 2004's and not the 05's but otherwise they are both of excellent quality.

I have a friend that has a 2005 CDI and I believe his SBC braking system has been changed (simplified) so that it doesn't try to do some fancy things like apply the brakes when you quickly take your foot off the brake. I prefer the way his brakes work to those on my 2004.

I hope to get mine reprogrammed if possible.

Buying a 2005 will allow you to choose (or order) exactly what you want on your car. I do it very carefully because I drive my Mercedes a long time (17 years, 13 years).

Fortunately, I was able to get exactly what I wanted on a 2004 and depreciation wasn't a consideration given the lengh of time I drive my cars.

LorinserCClass

I'll make this simple:

The GS will be outdated VERY soon as the new body style is going to be out(you dont want your dad pimping and older style car)

A6 same thing, and the new version looks MUCH better.

So just between the 5 and the E. I wanted the 5 series myself, it drives 'sportier' than my 320 Sport. BUT the wife loved the overall balance of power and handling and looks of the E Class. So unfortuantely:p we got the E Remember if you want sporty and a love it or hate it styling, then go with the 5, if you just want a nice luxo-feeling car then get the E320 Sport.

DavidNJ

Also the new Acura RL.

As other threads say, this is not the time to get an E320 unless you have to. E350 is do out in months. Actually, the same goes for the 5 series. New valvetronic (no direct injection) engine in the spring.

Audi is new in November. Also new direct injection V6.

New Infiniti is based on newer version G35/350Z chassis. 280 hp from 3.5 six.

Jag S-type revised for '05.

Acura RL new for '05. Only available with awd. 300hp iVTEC V6.

For that matter next spring or fall there will be a new Passat, same V6 as A6 I think.

Generally, all of the cars in this class are being significantly upgraded in the next 12 months.

Incendiary

Looks like the 'rents want an '05 E320 4MATIC. Contacting local dealers now to see what's in stock or coming in soon.

WRT the outgoing styles/engines, I actually would prefer to pick something up that's in an outgoing phase of the cycle, because that means it's more likely reliability woes have been worked out. I'd never get a first year model, and especially not a German one. All the new midsize lux competitors are cool for me to read about, but I'd want to wait for electrical gremlins and the like to be worked out. Thanks for the suggestions, though.

BudC

Never, ever buy the first model year. The current E320 is now pretty reliable and I can vouch that the M112 V6 has more than adequate power even at 10,000 feet.

DavidNJ

In these days of rapidling advancing electronics, newer models usually make huge leaps in refinement and functionality. For instance, follow some of the theads covering '05 enhancements in the US Command system.

The current E-class motors, a rather unusual 3-valve, twin-plug design (I don't know of any other manufacturer doing that) has never led the class in power or refinement. The new direct injection motor moves to the head of the class, or at least on-par with the BMW and new Audi engines.

As frequently as not, new models have fixes that couldn't be applied to the old ones. And usually the good engineers are working fixing things in the new models, leaving the junior or more professionally challenged staff (like the one who designed the worst in the industry MB Soprano trunk release) to work on older current models.

BudC

The new direct injection engines are still going to be 90 degree V6's that require a balance shaft. The current W112 engines are rated at only 215 HP but they have a broad, flat torque curve. I just took a 4,600 mile trip in a brand new E320 and even with a heavy load had no problems crossing at least six 8 to 10,000 mountain passes. I crossed the Continental Divide six times.

The engine is quite smooth. It has the sound of a V6 which isn't pleasant when pushed but the new CGI's will have the same configuration.

I averaged 27 MPG driving around 80 for most of the trip.

In other words, I see no reason to wait for the CGI V6's because the current engine is quite good.

Incendiary

Bud, I just want to be clear on what you said about the 7%, etc. stuff. You said only the 7% markup is built into invoice, meaning the invoice as listed on Edmunds is 1.07x the true invoice dealers pay? The other 3% holdback based on fast inventory movement or 1-2% for good dealership evaluations -- those are incentives offered to the dealerships by MBUSA but aren't built in? So a more than fair offer would be listed invoice / 1.07, since they'll get at least the 3% if I pick up something that's just come in?

About the engine, the current one will really suffice, as my parents don't have a huge need for speed. Actually, my mom complained about lack of passing torque (not in those words) at highway speeds on her current C240 yesterday, but I think if they really cared about that they'd have mentioned it more often by now. Besides, that can be easily remedied by quick instruction as how to use the TouchShift system, or whatever it's called.

BudC

The Invoice listed on Edmunds is what the dealer pays for the car. They might get something back from MBUSA when they sell the car but the Invoice is what the dealer pays. They do NOT pay a percentage of the Invoice. They pay the Invoice.

Note that Edmunds may not show the entire amount the dealer pays. There could be an advertising charge added by MBUSA that will appear on the Invoice.

Don't even consider the holdback. That's something dealers won't negotiate about.

If you are looking at 2004's then use the Invoice as a starting point. If you are looking at 2005's, use MSRP as the starting point.

I have a new E320 and it seems much more powerful than the E240 loaner I drove despite only a small difference in engine size.

Incendiary

Hmm, MSRP? That stinks. I do want an 05, but an E320 4matic. I saw someone else got $1500 off MSRP on an E500, so maybe I can get $2000 off since it's an E320.

Sorry to belabor the point, but what was the deal with the 7% then? Are you saying MSRP is 7% higher than true invoice (the one listed on Edmunds)?

BudC

The 7% is markup. Assume Invoice is wholesale and MSRP is Retail.

You can roughly calculate Invoice by subtracting the $720 delivery charge from MSRP, multiply by 93% and then add the $720 back in again.

Assuming that there are no other things added to the dealer cost, then a 2005 E320 4-Matic with Leather, Paint, Sunroof Package and Entertainment Package will have an MSRP of $56,420 which is roughly $3,900 more than Invoice.

Assume that the dealer has at least that much to play with and see what kind of a deal you can get.

Incendiary

Oh, I see. I thought the 7% were hidden markups already built into the "invoice." Okay, I already knew that invoice is what dealers pay, MSRP is a marked up price. I still think "invoice" isn't really what they pay, though, especially now that the Internet has allowed customers to become more informed about those numbers, what with proliferation of sites like Edmunds and carsdirect. Anyway, I guess I'll just try to get as close to invoice as possible. Thanks for the help! (I'll use the "you get the 3% holdback and 1-2% good dealership service" lines on them.)

ldangeli

This is all great advice, and very useful. My wife and I have been car shopping for her and comparing all the above mentioned. I currently own both Audi and MB, and I have to say, Audi service is far superior to MB. The warranty is above and beyond and the way you are treated is also above and beyond MB. So for the comment earlier in the post, that the Audi is not in the same class as a MB, that is sadly mistaken. To clear up the air, I currently own an 04' S4 and an 02 CLK430. We are looking at the E500 4matic and the A6. Audi warranty is 5/100 on most parts and 4/50k on everything. The brakes are covered for up to 25k miles. I had 11k on the CLK and had to replace the brakes, which was nearly 1500. Now to me, that seems a bit rediculous. The fact that there is no free maintenance on the MB also bothers me. Why would you buy the car. What is the incentive at that point. If I am going to spend 60K+ on a vehicle, that my wife is going to drive, why would I not look for a car that she can drop off for service and pick up, hassel free when it is done.

My experience with MB service has been less than pleasant, and with Audi so far has been excellent. As far as Audi being plagued with problems over the last decade, that isn't so true. In the 80's the cars were horrendous when it came to reliability. That all changed. If you read some of the reports on MB, you'll see that there reliability has steadily declined. I.e.;

According to J.D. Power and Associates’ initial quality survey issued last week, Mercedes-Benz registered a 20 percent improvement in the quality of its new cars — stemming a decline that had tarnished its image as the world’s oldest and most popular luxury car brand.

With 106 problems per 100 vehicles, the Stuttgart, Germany-based carmaker now draws fewer complaints from new customers than rival brands BMW, Audi and Porsche.

Mercedes still has to prove that it also has tackled reliability issues ******* its cars. Rated No. 1 in reliability in 1990, Mercedes plunged to 26th place last July, according to J.D. Power.

Automakers with strong dependability ratings tend to have high initial quality ratings, but the reverse is not always true, says Joe Ivers, executive director of quality and customer satisfaction at J.D. Power.

Hubbert has already urged his staff to cut out the chit-chat at the watercooler after a tumultuous week.

There’s still a lot of work to do.

http://www.detnews.com/2004/insiders...d01-141703.htm

This is from an article dated in May of 04'. For the veterans whom love their Mercedes of the 50's, 60's and 70's, this isn't your fathers car anymore. Don't be fooled by the little emblem on the hood. True question remains, what car gives a better value for your dollar?

ldangeli

I mean don't get me wrong, I am not choosing sides, yet... :-)