Incendiary

My dad is looking for a new car. Interested in prestige, reliability, ride comfort, not necessarily in that order, and at not too high a cost. He wants to rule out MB because the 05's don't offer free maintenance anymore. I'd be worried about reliability more than that, but I'm curious what you all think about these choices. BTW, after seeing the KBB/USA Today report on the news, I think his first choice is a 525i.

Thanks a lot.

Tandrek

1) Inform your father that he could not only retain the four-years free maintenance by purchasing a new 2004 E320, but he would also receive a hefty discount.
2) Mercedes wins hands-down for prestige. I also love the new console and overall interior of the E-Class.
3) The BMW offers better handling (esp with the sports package active steering), and I absolutely love the new headlights. There's nothing like a metallic black 5-Series with xenon lights looking through those gorgeous headlights.
4) The Audi is significantly less expensive, is said to offer the best interior of the three, and is supposed to be the most reliable as well.

Personally, it would be a very tough choice between the 525i and the E320.

Incendiary

I don't know if the local dealers have any 04 E's left. Otherwise, that would likely be the first option.

Tandrek

MB Dealers can swap with other dealerships. Go to any knowledgable salesman at your local dealership and inform him or her that you would like to purchase a new 2004 E320... you will have one within 72 hours.

chairman

I did not get the 5 series because of the I-drive system and its problems. The A6 2.7 would be a better choice because they are giving great deals because of the new model. Additionally, Audi's service policy is head and shoulders above MB, BMW's plan is similar to Audi's. Audi will replace every component from wiper blades to rotors and every component in between under their 4/50 warranty. MB will nickle and dime their owners for these components.

Dont get me wrong I love the E 320, it is an excellant road car and one of the most solidly built cars on the road, but you should not own any of these high end vehicles without a comprehensive warranty similar to either BMW or Audi IMO.

BudC

Mercedes have a better warranty than BMW. Don't confuse warranty with so-called free maintenance. Mercedes have a 4 year/50K warranty that's actually more generous than BMW's.

I just bought a new 2004 E320 and took it on a long trip. As a former BMW owner I can say that this is the first Mercedes I've owned that can compete with BMW in handling. It may not be quite as good as the 3-Series but it's certainly as good as the 5-Series.

The so-called 4 year free maintenance on my 2004 E320 is a farce. You'll be lucky to get three oil changes and that's about it. The only thing you'd likely get with BMW that's extra is a set of front brake pads.

Forget about the free-maintenance business with Mercedes and BMW. It's not worth anything.

I agree that the best deal is to find a 2004 E320. I bought mine for $2K under invoice. You might even be able to do better than that.

Audi has had a terrible reputation for reliability over the last decades. They are not in the same class as Mercedes or BMW.

If you are going to lease, get the BMW. If you are going to buy get the Mercedes. If you plan to keep the car for a long time, get a 2004.

Barry45RPM

All the above is VERY solid advice.

Incendiary

How is the MB warranty better?

Thanks all. Solid advice, indeed. First choice would probably be an 04 E320, as long as the test drive miles aren't too high. At this point, however, I'm not very hopeful.

BudC

The differences are subtle. For example, Mercedes will give you free alignment for 12 months. My last BMW was a fraction of that. My last BMW had a 12 month warranty on the battery. My Mercedes had a 2 year warranty.

The point is that BMW does not have a better Warrenty. They do cover more things on the so-called free maintenance than the 2004 Mercedes but in the real world you're not likely to get much more with BMW than with Mercedes. I'd say you'd get front brake pads and wiper blades. That's not worth making a decision about which car to choose.

I would definately go looking for a NEW 2004 E320. You should get at least $2K below invoice unless the dealer has to do some trading to get you one. Ask to see the invoice so you know what you are dealing with. In fact, you can have them e-mail a copy of the invoice to you....mine did.

krispykrme

Totally not true. BMW warranty is about the same mercedes espeically in US. Both offer same warranty level at 4 years 50k miles.

BMW free maint. pays for everthing including brakes. Which is a huge plus. It's not simple oil change only. In addition, if engine belts need to be replaced, BMW will pay for it. This is actually better than 05 mercedes as nothing is covered right now. Brake job could run in excess of $1k, not to mention the belts/chains.

Basically unless you modified your car, BMW will pretty much pay for any repairs for 4 years (other than tires). This is not true for mercedes. The battery comment is inaccurate.

BudC

One thing should be mentioned about the Mercedes E320. It has what's called an electro-hydraulic brake system. It's not like a typical hydraulic system in that it uses an electric pump to generate the pressure to apply the brakes.

It's a very sophisticated brake system and it must be serviced at Mercedes dealerships (at least for now). That means that you can't just pop in a set of brake pads in your garage or take it to the corner gas station to have the brakes serviced.

These brakes could save your life but they are also something that you need to be aware of before making a buying decision. You should assume that you'll have to take it to the dealer to have the brakes serviced including fluid and pad changes. It's going to cost more than other brake systems to maintain.

BTW, I found on my long trip that not only is the SBC brake system very powerful but also the brakes themselves are outstanding.

Incendiary

Isn't this the same system that MB just had a huge recall on? The same that MB said they're going to do away with in the S-class and the rest of the lineup?

BudC

The recall was for very high mileage cars such as European taxi cabs. There is supposed to be a recall in the U.S. but it hasn't occured yet.

The S-Class never had the SBC system. Mercedes are working on a similar system for the S-Class but it won't be as complex. In fact, I don't think anyone knows what the S-Class brakes will be like.

If you do your own brake work and don't like paying a dealer to do it for you, then don't buy the Mercedes. If you generally let the dealer do the brake work and/or you aren't going to keep the car too long, then you can expect to pay a bit more for the work (pads are $99 vs. $50 and it takes quite a while to bleed the system).

I've owned German cars since the 1950's and have always done my own brake work. However, since I really like this car and since I got such a great deal on it, I decided to get the car despite the SBC brake system.

After driving it on a 4,600 mile trip I can say that I like the brakes a lot. However, I have to be very careful when I get out of the E320 and back into my 300E. With the 300E, I come close to running stop signs until I get used to the less sensitive brakes again.

In fact if you have two cars and will be switching back and forth between them, it could be a problem if the older car has much less sensitive brakes.

I think Mercedes have pretty well solved all the problems that occurred with the 2003 W211's. My car was built in March of this year and I've not had any problems at all.

One more thing. If you really need to stop in a hurry, these brakes will do the job as well as any brake system on a production car. They also reduce reaction time by .4 seconds which is actually quite a bit.

Incendiary

Okay, going to check out a local dealer today with five 04 E320's in stock. If they have that many, I figure I should be able to get a great deal, right? Ballpark price to shoot for? $2k below invoice before TT&L? Don't they have a 7% profit margin built into the invoice price already? I thought I read something about that. Strangely, Edmunds's TMV is still a few thousand above invoice...

Did the MY04 E320 have sunroof (not the panorama one) as a standalone option and package, or just standalone?

Finally, how much should I subtract off for mileage? I'm sure these cars will have a relatively high number of miles on them...

Thanks, y'all.

BudC

There should be no reason for these cars to have high mileage. If they do, then they might have been used as demos and you never, ever want to buy a demo.

I'd say that if the car looks perfect and hasn't more than 100 miles on it, you should be OK.

MBUSA has a dealer rebate program going on for the 2004's. So that's why they can sell it for less than invoice and still make a profit.

I'd start haggling at $2K below invoice but I wouldn't pass up a decent deal on a 2004 unless you trade often. If you don't keep the car for a long time, you will be hit by the depreciation of a year old car (the 2005's are out).

Go to Edmunds.Com and look at the options there. A sunroof is not standard, it's an option.

Most dealers seem to have the option set I got (Entertainment Package, full leather and Sunroof). Full leather is extra. Most paint options are extra.

The most important thing is for you to get a car you really want. Don't pass up something for a few hundred dollars if that car is going to make you happy.

Make the salesman show you the Invoice.

BTW, I got Pewter/Charcoal and it's a beauty. Silver is the most popular but it's also the most common color you'll see.

Good luck and keep us informed.

Spartan

Why bother with an '04 unless they want to BLEED on the selling price. Two thousand is nothing on a year old model year. I got far more then that on a '05.

BudC

You got more than $2K below Invoice? I seriously doubt you can buy a 2005 for anywhere near what you can get a 2004 for. MBUSA has a dealer rebate on them and dealers want to get rid of them.

Not everyone trades cars every three years. For those of us who buy Mercedes and keep them a long time, the difference in resale value ten years from now isn't worth worrying about. Besides, the 2004's have more content and so-called free maintenance.

I bought my 1991 300E new in July of 1992 for $37,200. MSRP was $48,800. The fact that I bought a 1991 after the 1992's came out doesn't make any difference now. Besides, MSRP on the 1992's went up to $49,900.

The condition of my car is far more important in what I can ask for it than the fact that it's a '91 instead of a '92.

DavidNJ

On an E320 gas '04 vs. '05 E320 gas you have the free maintenance in addtion, plus wasn't there a $500 price increase?

So, assuming you can get it for $2000 under invoice vs. $1200 over, the total difference is $3200 discount, $500 price increase plus $1000 free maintanence. $4700 total.

That is about the difference between a 3 and 4 year old or a 4 and 5 year old car. So, if you plan to keep the car more than 4 years...going for the '04 is preferable. If you plan to keep it for less than 3 years it is not. In between should be shades of grey.

glojo

An excellent choice of cars, but surely the choice must be down to your father. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and the BMW in looks is a completely different 'beast' to the E-class as is the new A6.

I considered the new 5 series but as soon as I saw it in the showroom that was enough, its looks are not to my taste. However it has its supporters and I respect there opinion, likewise the new A6 with its very large 'nose'.

If I liked the look of the 5 series more than the E-class, and then discovered that the free servicing only applied to the Mercedes and not the BMW, I would still go for the car that I liked.

The three German marques all have excellent reputations, with a 'slight' query over the niggly eletronic teething problems of the E-class. (Mercedes-Benz are certainly working extremely hard on rectifying this)

Good luck with your families choice and hopefully we will be hearing from you at some time in the future.

John
Torquay

Incendiary

Edmunds claims no incentives, incl no dealer rebates, on 2004 E320. I'm wondering, if that's the case, whether I'll even be able to get $2k off.

BudC

They had it last month. I think it was $3K. Note that a dealer can make up to 12% on a car w/o any year-end rebates. There is a normal 7% mark-up plus a 3% hold back that some part is returned to the dealer depending on how fast they sell the car plus an additional 1-2% for dealers who get good customer surveys.

My car was sitting at the dealer for four months so he probably didn't get any of the hold back but he's the top rated dealer in the SW and could have got the 2% good-guy rebate plus the year-end rebate.

I have a copy of the Invoice and I got $2K off that price. I was first offered $1.5K but that was quickly changed to $2K. I might have got more but I knew the salesman and he's a no B.S. guy who will give you a price over the phone.

Note that in some locations such as LA and Phoenix, there is a $600 charge that MBUSA tacks on to the Invoice called IRG Participation. This is a surcharge for advertising costs that you get stuck with.

If you look at the Invoice, you can tell if there are any additional charges that you have to account for.

First of all, find a car you like. Next ask to see the Invoice and then make an offer based on that price. I'd start at $2K below Invoice or maybe even more.

Incendiary

Is this 7%, 3%, and 2% built into invoice? So I should take listed invoice (on Edmunds and carsdirect) and divide by 1.12 to find the true invoice?

DavidNJ

Very succinct, solid advice!

You might want to add the S-Type, '6 Infiniti M35 and Cadillac CTS/STS to you list. CTS is in many ways comparable and won R&T test. V6 STS is comparibly priced and may be better in many ways. M35 will also be very interesting. Make sure NOT to get '05 GS. "06 GS is a whole new car. More dramatic. Upto date features. Infiniti, Lexus, and STS have awd for '06 ('05 for Caddy).

Also Chrysler C300 SRT-8 will be in that price range. 425 hp.

BudC

Only the 7% is built into the Invoice. The 3% hold back is provided to encourage quick sales. It starts to deplete as soon as the dealer gets the car and I think it's gone in either 3 months or 6 months. That hold back is not something dealers will negotiate about so you shouldn't consider it. The 1 to 2% is only to dealers that have very good customer surveys. Only the top rated dealerships get it.

I still think that dealers are getting a $3K rebate on 2004's. Just assume that you can get some part of that rebate off the Invoice price. Like I said, I got $2K off Invoice but you may be able to do better or worse depending on the dealer's situation.

How long do you plan to keep the car? As I say, if it's for a short time than don't buy a 2004. If it's for a long time then find a car that you really want and remember that the state will probably make more money on the car than the dealer. Here in Arizona I had to pay 8.1% sales tax plus more than $800 for a license plate. That's the killer.

Again, the most important thing is to find the car you want to own for a long time. Make sure you at least get the Entertainment Package and sunroof.

Here are the numbers off my Invoice that was e-mailed to me by my salesman:

- Model E320W: $44,710
- Pewter Paint: $623
- Full Charcoal Leather: $1,367
- Entertainment Package: $884
- Glass Sun Roof: $1,153
- Transportation and Handling: $720
- IRG Participation: $600 (tacked on by MBUSA for advertising)
- Total: $50,057

I got $2,000 off the $50,057 total.

Most dealers will charge you some kind of fee for handling the paper work and of course you'll have to pay license and taxes.

glojo

Has any European member considered any of the US alternatives, and if so how did they compare?

John