glojo

Hi Barry,
The trouble is how do you define ""the better deal""?

On that criteria surely we would all be driving cars like Hyundai, they are an awful lot of bangs for your buck, but they are not the car for me (they do not manufacture a large estate )

I am sure if this were a Lexus forum and a similar question asked most members would sing the praises of that brand. I do however agree that reading this thread gives me the impression that the Lexus offers more for your dollar, but then Hyundai offer far more than both.

No, to me it is quite simply, each to his own.

Is white a popular colour for Lexus? (I have only seen one and it was silver)

Regards,
John
From a cool misty evening in Torquay

Barry45RPM

If you remove the prestige factor given not by the manufacturer of the 2 cars but rather bestowed upon the 2 cars by the car buying/car appreciating public, the Benz has more of "it" than the Lexus. The Benz has more world-wide, time tested Prsetige than the Lexus. It was earned over a long period of time.

If you are simply looking at the levels of luxury between the 2, its like splitting hairs. If you are looking at the levels of included/not optional luxury between the 2, the Lexus wins.

If you are looking at Luxury car dependability The Lexus is a clear cut, hands down no debate winner over MB.

If you are looking at price/value, disregarding style/beauty the Lexus wins.

Untill the current model 211, the looks of the previous E were comparable to the Lexus, the MB possibly a close second place due to its sparse, rugged (manly?) looks.

Since the current w 211 intro, The Lexus looks like a Spinster Aunt. Well appointed, friendly, easy to live with, dowdy. I believe the stunning looks of the current E are almost enough alone to overcome the MB quality/dependability reputation. (almost, but not quite enough)

A stunning redo of the Lexus LS would more than likely be a near mortal blow to MB sales. Dont forget the current LS design emulated the old E class looks/stance to the best of their ability, and they are stuck with an old looking design right now. A Lexus stunner thats also quick would be a killer choice.

A Lexus in white aroud here is as plentifull as an E Class in Brilliant Silver!!!

As for what will be my next car, Lets see what comes out of Lexus...

glojo

Hi Barry,
Thanks for the very informative response. I must confess that reading the messages from the owners of the Lexus, it is noticeable that there are no complaints of reliability (how boring joke)

I suppose the colour is popular then for the same reasons (no imagination whoops that slipped out ) White is to Japan as Silver is to Germany. Bentley's and Jaguars 'should' be dark green.

In case people are thinking I am delirious they are the National motor racing colours. White for Japan, Green for Great Britain, Red for Italy, Blue for France, Silver for Germany, don't know about the US though??

Regards,
John

Baby Jocko

I think the reason why white is a popular Lexus color is because of its luster. It's not your common boring white. Cadillac also has a similar white. It is awesome! Mercedes just hasn't figured out how to make white yet.

From some of the artist renderings I have seen of the next LS, it will certainly be a MB killer. Currently, the exterior styling of the LS is it's only flaw (and a big flaw it is).

lig

Gotta agree with Barry here. If the LS were better looking - it would mean trouble for M-B. Granted - there are some that buy a car for the badge, but not everyone is like that.

I bought my first Lexus in 1992. Had all the style of a suburban grocery getter.

The funny thing was that I traded in a '90 300ZX for it - I thought that was one of the best looking cars of the decade.

My friends called the Lexus the "Pu$$y Wagon" because it really got me a lot of action!

I never had thought of a car as being a good way to get laid - but that car was amazingly good at the job.

Beyond that - it was (and is) the most reliable car ever. I'd have no hesitation buying another.

I can't wait to see the new IS coupe.

luxury1

When does the new LS appear? Are there spy shots yet?

alewifebp

No spy shots as of yet. But the general culture is changing at Lexus right now. Starting in 2005, Lexus will be a brand new name in their home country of Japan, where they were still under the Toyota nameplate. So the common criticism of Lexus that it was just a Toyota was actually quite true, at least in Japan, even though they shared very little with the American Toyota.

My guess is that Lexus is changing things in a few key areas. Styling is one of them. While the new GS did not make it in time to be styled with the new L-Finesse styling mantra, the next IS, coming soon, and the next LS should both be a dramatic exterior change from the current models. I estimate the LS to come out in late 2006/2007 maybe? You can also expect them to put their hat in the ring with a V12 powered sedan costing in upwards of $100,000. While they don't have the cachet yet to suceed in that space, it at least establishes them as a maker in that space. And the upcoming GT variant of the GS, as well as the hybrid variations, it should get interesting.

1SICKLEX

True the LS and Lexus does not have the prestige of Benz. But the LS is not hurting. Its the best seller in its class (S/7/A8). I also think the LS styling is bland and boring. Clearly most buyers like it that way.

Lexus does want to make more exciting designs. But also does not want to alienate the people who made the brand the luxury best-seller here.

krispykrme

Wrong and biased. A lot of electronics safety features are not really developed by the german either. Just because Toyota delayed introduction to world wide market by a few year does not meant it stole anything from the germans.

For example, Toyota already had a working CD-ROM based navi on the 1997 Camry but choose not to introduce it until 02 model for the camry. BMW went ahead and provided consumer with lousy CD-ROM navi 1st in 1997 but it was hard to use.

If you look closely, a lot of electronics are pioneered by the Japanese not german. Each company has it's own capabilties. In addition, a lot of components on BMW/Mercedes are not even invented by either company.

BudC

Could you name one single safety feature that Toyota developed? I'm neither wrong nor biased. How about things like Smart Key, Keyless Go, Parking Assist, Central Locking, Remote Key Locking, smart cruise control.

Again, who developed ABS brakes, anti-skid control, traction control, variable length intake manafolds, variable valve timing? Who were the first to use Silicone enriched, alloy blocks? How about Silicone enriched clear coats?

Who invented seatbelt pretensioners?

I don't need to go on. Toyota hasn't developed one single important automotive advancement that I can think of. Yet, they have profited by the research and development done by the Germans (and other Europeans).

As I said before, Toyota are the smart ones and the Germans are the dumb ones.

BTW, I wouldn't call a Navigation System an earth shattering automotive advancement. As one of the local salesmen likes to ask when you want to order a car with a Nav system...are you going to be delivering pizza?

Baby Jocko

Japan's success hasn't been by way of innovation. They succeed by way of perfecting. They're like BASF. They didn't make the car, but they make it better. They didn't make the TV, but they make it better. They didn't make (or innovate) anything, they just make everything better. However, since they've cornered the electronics industry, they are now the leaders of electronic innovation.

South Korea has been following in their footsteps.

luxury1

I disagree with this. I really think this is a huge advancement and its popularity is indicative of this. That salesman doesn't know what other salesmen (like myself) do. I rely on my navigation all day long 4-5 days a week. It is my absolute favorite thing about the car (although the E navigation is really poorly done).

W210

And believe it or not, we are having more problems with the Lexus electronics (navigation and Bluetooth telematics) than with the MB. With the Lexus (RX330), we have been running into so many no-such-address errors, and the Bluetooth interface is buggy. A common Motorola V600 does not properly transfer the phonebook to the RX330, extremely annoying.

Dema

Lexus navigation is worst I've ever seen. Yes it has a nice touch screen, however it's extremely buggy and in 50% of cases it brought me in nowhere and stopped working. For some reason Japanese can do everything better, but software. From this point MB navigation is less fancy but I had much less problems with its inaccuracy and bugs.

krispykrme

The funny things is that everything you mentioned did not start with german either. ABS 1st production application is by Dunlop. Bosch 1st application on cars is 1978 about 15 years after ford. List goes on and on.

Toyota came up with world 1st production hybrid car. You can't take that away. Just becaue you can't think of one, does not mean they don't exist. Bosch was 1st to put ABS in mainstream product in 1978, but it was not the 1st to come up with such idea.

Profited? Like i said, you haven't got a clue.

Alfa was the 1st company to come up with variable valve timing (mechanical). But it was Japanese that came up with electronic controlled version 1st with much more precise control. A lot of idea in automobile is not new. But implementation design is different. Toyota was one of the 1st company to use 5 valve per cylindar design (JDM corolla) and are more advance than german counter part in GDI.

regarding the lexus navigation system/bluetooth. I have to totally disagree. Other than the stupid disable all function when motion, it's light year ahead of mercedes command navigation. To say mercedes command is more useful and accurate than Toyota version is totally BS.

Toyota allows you to pin-point address. The only way that you can't find the address is probably you are searching the wrong area. For the 4th generation toyota nav, it requires correct search area to be chosen 1st before search for address. The POI search on the new 4th generation toyota navi is also significantly better than mercedes command. On the mercedes command the POI category search is much more limited. It does not allow pin-point address input. Even BMW does it better than mercedes. BMW CD-ROM based navi is horrible, but the DVD version are better.

As far as crashing goes. I had 2 cars with toyota navi (RX300, sienna upgraded with 05 Solara navi). None of them has crashed ever or stopped working. The voice command works great (last time i check, Mercedes does not even allow voice command at this time). Both my W211 command has crashed on several occasions and in the process took out my CD changer and only allowed limited function from the head unit (AM/FM, CD slot).

By far the best navigation system from factory is honda/alpine unit. Which is even more poweful than toyota/denso unit. It's voice command is way better. It's function is more powerful. However, toyota is not that much behind. I also find it amusing that here we are in W211 forum, praising a DVD navi that does not allow pin-point entering of address and not bluetooth. While poor toyota that has integrated back up camera, bluetooth, DVD capabilities, voice command, and much more powerful search feature are totally useless.

krispykrme

You are joking right.

Like i said in my previous post. I had 2 toyota navi system before, none of crashed on me and stopped working for no reason at all. Buggy? Sorry got to say this is BS.

Although command has not failed during the navigation. My W211 navi has crashed right from the start on both cars and will return when it wants to. W211 navi is not accurate, in fact none of the mercedes command navigation are accurate simply due to stupid block of address concept. Heck, it's even less accurate than old BMW CD-rom design.

A real world example. While taking my kid to a B-day party to pump it up in union city couple weeks ago. The mercedes block address setup would terminate just right after the turn onto whipple, leaving me searching entire block (about 6 buildings to find 2995 Whipple road). While the same address input in my van's nav points me to the right building complex. It's about 1/4 miles apart. Here is the simple truth.

W210

Yes, the problem with the Lexus navigation is that it often gives you the no-such-address.

The annoying part is that when that happens, you have no choice but to have to guess and enter a fake street number just to get you to the right block. Extremely silly.

Out of all my MB systems (DVD and CD), I have never had the above problem. I don't care about the extensive POI or fancy icons, I only want to be able to quickly enter a street address and go.

W210

Krispykrme, have you found a bluetooth phone that works well with the Lexus system allowing one to automatically upload the phonebook from the phone to the car?

As of now, between the Motorola V600 and RX330, one has to manually upload each phonebook entry! Never had this problem with my MB V60 setup as all phonebook entries are automatically uploaded.

Does Lexus really expect all Motorola V600 owners to manually go through the hundreds of phone entries one by one to transfer them to the car? It will literally take hours and will be impossible to keep track as one adds and substracts phone entries!

We wonder if it is a bug in the Lexus system or an issue with the phone, or a little bit of both. Will be curious to find a bluetooth phone that works seamlessly like the MB V60 in our previous Mercedes.

Not impressed at all with the bluetooth connection between the RX330 and V600 at the moment.

krispykrme

How about this? Give me an address and i can post a screen shot and prove it. I can do it on Toyota navi system, on W211 command, and on w209 command. The only thing that i can think of is the map. The house number not found is related to the map disc (which is made by navitech). Maybe your disc is old an needs to be updated.

Also how is entering a fake street number a problem if you are doing the exact same thing with the mercedes system, since you are inputing by block as well.

krispykrme

I agree on the phone book issue as this is a problem with current Lexus bluetooth setup. But compare to no bluetooh on W211, i think the clear winner is obvious.

The mercedes integration is not really bluetooth based and you really can't compare the two. At least the phone is not $1000. Bluetooth is a cheap way to allow communication, at current time it should not be expected to have all feature from integrated phone. Although Lexus bluetooth does sxxk, as BMW bluetooth on my E46 (retrofit) already allows seamless importation of phone book in one shot.

W210

If you have time, go for it:

Flamingo House Restaurant. 604-325-4511. 7510 Cambie Street, Vancouver, BC V6P 3H7

With the MB, since we enter by the block (which I originally thought would be a bad thing, ended up being much more convenient):

When I type in 7510, it works right away giving me a range from 7500-7550, I simply press enter and it'll take me to the block.

With the 2005 Lexus RX330, my associate got the error when he typed in 7510, and the system forces him to go back to the previous screen, and he has no choice but to re-enter a different house number making things rather complicated.

I was telling him perhaps the Lexus DVD was out of date, but was told by him the restaurant has been there for 30+ years.

Would appreciate your help in advance, thanks.

W210

For my use, I need the phonebook to work in my car phone. It's the only way for me to safely make outgoing calls and to receive and display incoming caller names with caller ID.

I find it irresponsible of Lexus to market their bluetooth phone setup not informing users about the buggy phonebook. I much prefer the MB system, yes, you have to plug it in, but it will always stay charged and it gives you full functionality, as well as superior reception with the external antenna. Yes, it costs more but it is a higher end product beating the half hearted Lexus solution in my opinion.

I suppose for recreational user wanting to save a few bucks and also wanting to have the latest fancy phone, the Lexus bluetooth solution is good enough. Unfortunately, for serious business users who rely on a good phone system for work, it fails.

And don't get me started with BMW telematics, your E46 may work well but the E60 is a joke without a keypad or touchscreen!! My experience dialling with the iDrive knob or by voice (MB, BMW, Lexus across the board) had been rather poor. Nothing beats having a good old keypad for telematics. Porsche, MB, Lexus win; BMW, Audi,VW?, Acura? lose.

Gunther

Both are great cars...but the Lexus is boring to drive and ALWAYS makes me feel like I'm riding in the big bubble used by Glinda the Good Witch of the North as she enters Munchkinland.

krispykrme

If you are in canada then this is true. Toyota's map for canada is lacking. Toyota only started to offer Navigation for Canada until recently. It's coverage are not good at this time. Even though the restaurant could have been there for 30 years, the canada map for toyota is not that great and will require patience unti the map disc is updated. This has nothing to do with the software itself, it's the navtech data disc that is lacking. Chances are it will take lexus/toyota at least one to two updates to get everything in place.

I don't want to comment on E60 right now, since I don't live with it on daily basis. With bluetooth, since it's all software issue, it can be solved with future updates just like what BMW has been doing (albeit extremely poor). Bluetooth is still fairly new hence bugs needs to be worked out. I understand the importance of a phone for a business user. But it also depends on how many cars you have. At least for me, I don't want to pay $4000 for 4 phones on each car. In addition, it would also tie me up to particular cell phone service provider. The function of the phone itself is outdated as well. Bluetooth it's better for me since it's portable. I can simply sync it. In addition, i can switch services from one to another with ease. I like the ability to upgrade phones year after year by simply switching provider (has been doing this for almost 6 years, always wanted the latest phone). Bluetooth is here to stay. Functionally speaking, it's actually better than integrated phone (potentially speaking). It's just so new on cars.

As far as voice command goes, I find it is okay with the Lexus/Toyota as long as the mic location is moved. I have mic currently on my steering column and it's fine.

glojo

At last, The US has I believe a very cut down version of Linguatronic (Voice Command) 'It is putting salt into my wound' talking about this, but 'Oslo' really sings the praises of this excellent option. It offers more Navigational options as well as a multitude of other commands for the radio etc.

(I only wish I had it :v )

John
A cool night in Torquay