Lexus LS430 vs E500
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Originally Posted by krispykrme
If you are in canada then this is true. Toyota's map for canada is lacking. Toyota only started to offer Navigation for Canada until recently. It's coverage are not good at this time. Even though the restaurant could have been there for 30 years, the canada map for toyota is not that great and will require patience unti the map disc is updated. This has nothing to do with the software itself, it's the navtech data disc that is lacking. Chances are it will take lexus/toyota at least one to two updates to get everything in place.
I still believe Lexus can better improve its navigation interface. When a specific address does not exist on its DVD, it should automatically jump to the closest address as it is annoying forcing the driver to re-enter a dummy street address just to get to the block.
I do not understand why the Mercedes navtech DVD does not have the same bug as the Lexus. I guess it's better off for users to enter a block address in these situations.
Yeah, I agree Bluetooth will be nice for someone who uses different cars on a regular basis. However, it is really important to get the features sorted out. Phonebook access is crucial!
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i535
Originally Posted by krispykrme
You are joking right.
Like i said in my previous post. I had 2 toyota navi system before, none of crashed on me and stopped working for no reason at all. Buggy? Sorry got to say this is BS.
Although command has not failed during the navigation. My W211 navi has crashed right from the start on both cars and will return when it wants to. W211 navi is not accurate, in fact none of the mercedes command navigation are accurate simply due to stupid block of address concept. Heck, it's even less accurate than old BMW CD-rom design.
A real world example. While taking my kid to a B-day party to pump it up in union city couple weeks ago. The mercedes block address setup would terminate just right after the turn onto whipple, leaving me searching entire block (about 6 buildings to find 2995 Whipple road). While the same address input in my van's nav points me to the right building complex. It's about 1/4 miles apart. Here is the simple truth.
Like i said in my previous post. I had 2 toyota navi system before, none of crashed on me and stopped working for no reason at all. Buggy? Sorry got to say this is BS.
Although command has not failed during the navigation. My W211 navi has crashed right from the start on both cars and will return when it wants to. W211 navi is not accurate, in fact none of the mercedes command navigation are accurate simply due to stupid block of address concept. Heck, it's even less accurate than old BMW CD-rom design.
A real world example. While taking my kid to a B-day party to pump it up in union city couple weeks ago. The mercedes block address setup would terminate just right after the turn onto whipple, leaving me searching entire block (about 6 buildings to find 2995 Whipple road). While the same address input in my van's nav points me to the right building complex. It's about 1/4 miles apart. Here is the simple truth.
Last edited by Dema; Nov 5, 2004 at 04:12 AM.
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From: fremont, ca
04 E55
Originally Posted by W210
Actually, Toyota Canada is only offering its navigation system in its Lexus line, even the Sienna cannot be ordered with navigation which is a shame.
I still believe Lexus can better improve its navigation interface. When a specific address does not exist on its DVD, it should automatically jump to the closest address as it is annoying forcing the driver to re-enter a dummy street address just to get to the block.
I do not understand why the Mercedes navtech DVD does not have the same bug as the Lexus. I guess it's better off for users to enter a block address in these situations.
Yeah, I agree Bluetooth will be nice for someone who uses different cars on a regular basis. However, it is really important to get the features sorted out. Phonebook access is crucial!
I still believe Lexus can better improve its navigation interface. When a specific address does not exist on its DVD, it should automatically jump to the closest address as it is annoying forcing the driver to re-enter a dummy street address just to get to the block.
I do not understand why the Mercedes navtech DVD does not have the same bug as the Lexus. I guess it's better off for users to enter a block address in these situations.
Yeah, I agree Bluetooth will be nice for someone who uses different cars on a regular basis. However, it is really important to get the features sorted out. Phonebook access is crucial!
It's not really a bug. It has to do how the discs and data point are packaged. Lexus/Toyota navi carries much more data point than MB. On the toyota/lexus disc (the US is sepearate into 11 regions, and canada is one big region). The amount of data point is about the same for each regions. Which should tell you how much less data are in the canadien region. There is only a limited amount of space on each disc. Too bad Canada just got sacrificed in favor of more detail data for the US. MB on the other hand i believe has much less detail data information for its data point as well as less category classification. Hence it could afford to have more street/address by number than toyota. It's simply a trade off on what data is more important.
In addition, lexus map is not solely based on nav tech alone. It also combines another source which provide detail maps for smaller city in US. In earlier version (such as generation 2 on my RX300, switching from navtech map to other source- merged on the same dvd disc, would often lead temporary freeze- couple second).
It's not a bug. Just one vendor decide to screw canada more in favor of getting more data for US.
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From: fremont, ca
04 E55
Originally Posted by Dema
Ok, it seems you are in SFBA. I can PM you address in Hayward, then you will tell us where you finished. You can also try Evergreen (it's near Yosemite), or just Winifred in San Jose. Have you ever try to get 880 from Berkeley? Navigation will try to get you off a freeway. My list of destination where Lexus fails is over 20 addresses in SFBA and around. The star address is Lexus dealer in Oakland. And regarding your example and MB, you are right, MB doesn't cover certain parts of Redwood Shores for example, however I can find my destination from point where MB brought me without problem. At least it doesn't bring me 30 miles away of destination as Lexus does..
Oakland Lexus is right by the stadium. And it shows on my map. I have never been to evergreen, winifred. but an address would be okay for me to try.
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Originally Posted by krispykrme
I do agree with some of the toyota interface are very poorly designed and not intuitive. Even at it's 4th generation it's still no match to Acura/Alpine unit..
As of now, I just find the MB system much easier to use, especially when having to deal with addresses not found on the DVD. The MB automatically brings you to the block, the Lexus (at least in the RX330 in Canada), forces you to re-enter make up dummy house numbers in order to proceed.
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From: fremont, ca
04 E55
Originally Posted by W210
Indeed, it'll be interesting to see how Honda will do better than Toyota/Lexus in its DVD interface. For one, they have two DVDs to cover the entire North America together with all your Zagat reviews.
As of now, I just find the MB system much easier to use, especially when having to deal with addresses not found on the DVD. The MB automatically brings you to the block, the Lexus (at least in the RX330 in Canada), forces you to re-enter make up dummy house numbers in order to proceed.
As of now, I just find the MB system much easier to use, especially when having to deal with addresses not found on the DVD. The MB automatically brings you to the block, the Lexus (at least in the RX330 in Canada), forces you to re-enter make up dummy house numbers in order to proceed.
To me in US, this is not so much of a problem, since I have not yet once encountered this.
Also, i was able to find Lexus of oakland on 7293 Oakport fine today in my system. Was able to find it via address input as well as POI category search.
The problem i suspect is that DVD map updates at least once a year. The missing of address is simply data disc not up to date. This is a simple upgrade of disc. Typically speaking, you would update your map disc probably once every 2 years to make sure that you have good data for the navi.
This is going to be a problem with mercedes as well. Soon or later, the maps all become outdated and there is no way to get away from that.
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Different approach when dealing with non-existing addresses on DVD
Originally Posted by krispykrme
This is going to be a problem with mercedes as well. Soon or later, the maps all become outdated and there is no way to get away from that.
It appears that there is an actual advantage with the address range input interface as it saves one from having to guess street numbers where there is no match. Since MB covers 4500-4599 as one entry, even if 4510 does not exist on the DVD, it still takes you to the block with no hassle.
In the RX330, it was particularly annoying when 4510 Cambie didn't work. We were forced to try 4508, 4512, 4520, 4550, etc., and it took us quite a few trial and error attempts to correctly guess an address that is on the DVD. Needless to say, we find the interface rather clumsy.
What Lexus should have done, was to follow MB and give a range when there is no specific match. This is the poor interface I'm talking about. Out of date DVDs will always be an issue, but the more intelligent interface will make life much easier.
Last edited by W210; Nov 6, 2004 at 04:13 AM.
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Originally Posted by W210
What Lexus should have done, was to follow MB and give a range when there is no specific match.
BTW, I don't remember the Bimmer ever refusing to take an address, although it never showed me a range. Maybe its algorithm for what to do when it didn't recognize an address was to siliently substitute the closest one that it did know. That sounds like an even better solution than falling back to ranges, since it reduces the band of uncertainty.
Jim
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You know, I haven't visited the W211 forum in awhile, but I can't believe that the Lexus v. MB debate is still going on, albeit in a new thread. So, let me add some fuel to the fire by saying this:
545i!
<Flame Shield On>
545i!
<Flame Shield On>
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Originally Posted by CASL55
That sounds like a good idea for systems that look for a specific address. Having said that, put me down as one who dislikes the ranges as the primary solution. I had a 745 that used specific addresses, and especially drivng alone at night, it was much easier to turn in where the nav system said than to try to drive and look for adresses at the same time, like I now have to do in my SL55.
BTW, I don't remember the Bimmer ever refusing to take an address, although it never showed me a range. Maybe its algorithm for what to do when it didn't recognize an address was to siliently substitute the closest one that it did know. That sounds like an even better solution than falling back to ranges, since it reduces the band of uncertainty.
Jim
BTW, I don't remember the Bimmer ever refusing to take an address, although it never showed me a range. Maybe its algorithm for what to do when it didn't recognize an address was to siliently substitute the closest one that it did know. That sounds like an even better solution than falling back to ranges, since it reduces the band of uncertainty.
Jim
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From: fremont, ca
04 E55
Originally Posted by W210
I feel that the MB system will fare better dealing with out of date DVDs as the system still brings you to the block whereas Lexus will force you to back track and enter a phantom address just to get to the area.
It appears that there is an actual advantage with the address range input interface as it saves one from having to guess street numbers where there is no match. Since MB covers 4500-4599 as one entry, even if 4510 does not exist on the DVD, it still takes you to the block with no hassle.
In the RX330, it was particularly annoying when 4510 Cambie didn't work. We were forced to try 4508, 4512, 4520, 4550, etc., and it took us quite a few trial and error attempts to correctly guess an address that is on the DVD. Needless to say, we find the interface rather clumsy.
What Lexus should have done, was to follow MB and give a range when there is no specific match. This is the poor interface I'm talking about. Out of date DVDs will always be an issue, but the more intelligent interface will make life much easier.
It appears that there is an actual advantage with the address range input interface as it saves one from having to guess street numbers where there is no match. Since MB covers 4500-4599 as one entry, even if 4510 does not exist on the DVD, it still takes you to the block with no hassle.
In the RX330, it was particularly annoying when 4510 Cambie didn't work. We were forced to try 4508, 4512, 4520, 4550, etc., and it took us quite a few trial and error attempts to correctly guess an address that is on the DVD. Needless to say, we find the interface rather clumsy.
What Lexus should have done, was to follow MB and give a range when there is no specific match. This is the poor interface I'm talking about. Out of date DVDs will always be an issue, but the more intelligent interface will make life much easier.
Also, lexus does give you a range to input as well.
also, the 1st two pictures shows why MB's block method is horrible as it terminates way sooner than exact address.
BTW- the destination used in this example is so called missing lexus dealership in oakland. 7293 Oakport Street in Oakland.
Last edited by krispykrme; Nov 6, 2004 at 03:35 PM.
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Thanks for the screen shots. I don't understand, with the Lexus system, why are we given such a large range? Would it cover all street numbers from 4400-8483 or would it still force you to manually, guess and type in a closest address when your specific address does not exist? That's my biggest disappointment.
It should revert to range automatically (perhaps like the BMW system?), when the specific address does not exist!
It should revert to range automatically (perhaps like the BMW system?), when the specific address does not exist!
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Originally Posted by W210
Is the 745i system fairly accurate leading you to the specific house number?
Jim
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From: fremont, ca
04 E55
Originally Posted by W210
Thanks for the screen shots. I don't understand, with the Lexus system, why are we given such a large range? Would it cover all street numbers from 4400-8483 or would it still force you to manually, guess and type in a closest address when your specific address does not exist? That's my biggest disappointment.
It should revert to range automatically (perhaps like the BMW system?), when the specific address does not exist!
It should revert to range automatically (perhaps like the BMW system?), when the specific address does not exist!
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MB has introduced to more countries than Lexus. I mean Lexus has always been brought up as a Toyota in Japan until now. Why would a Toyota introduce Lexus in their home country as a Toyota?
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If you have been around Toyota's at all, the Lexus feels like a nice Toyota when you enter it. The switches are Toyota. Steering wheel: Toyota. etc.
I admire the reliability of the cars and I admire the speed-to-market with which Toyota/Lexus has dominated their niche. Toyota/Lexus has also dumbed us into thinking we need bluetooth (sounds like crap), back up camera (say wha?), as well as copying features that MB and BMW innovated years ago (parktronic, distronic, heated rear seats, etc.).
To each his own...but the Lexus is a nice Toyota. How many people would buy them if they were badged as "Toyota LS430" or "Toyota GS430"?
Comparing service experiences between Lexus and MB owners is, unfortunately, embarrassing. If you can get past that, the MB is in a class all by itself.
I admire the reliability of the cars and I admire the speed-to-market with which Toyota/Lexus has dominated their niche. Toyota/Lexus has also dumbed us into thinking we need bluetooth (sounds like crap), back up camera (say wha?), as well as copying features that MB and BMW innovated years ago (parktronic, distronic, heated rear seats, etc.).
To each his own...but the Lexus is a nice Toyota. How many people would buy them if they were badged as "Toyota LS430" or "Toyota GS430"?
Comparing service experiences between Lexus and MB owners is, unfortunately, embarrassing. If you can get past that, the MB is in a class all by itself.
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Originally Posted by DarkStar
If you have been around Toyota's at all, the Lexus feels like a nice Toyota when you enter it. The switches are Toyota. Steering wheel: Toyota. etc.
I admire the reliability of the cars and I admire the speed-to-market with which Toyota/Lexus has dominated their niche. Toyota/Lexus has also dumbed us into thinking we need bluetooth (sounds like crap), back up camera (say wha?), as well as copying features that MB and BMW innovated years ago (parktronic, distronic, heated rear seats, etc.).
To each his own...but the Lexus is a nice Toyota. How many people would buy them if they were badged as "Toyota LS430" or "Toyota GS430"?
Comparing service experiences between Lexus and MB owners is, unfortunately, embarrassing. If you can get past that, the MB is in a class all by itself.
I admire the reliability of the cars and I admire the speed-to-market with which Toyota/Lexus has dominated their niche. Toyota/Lexus has also dumbed us into thinking we need bluetooth (sounds like crap), back up camera (say wha?), as well as copying features that MB and BMW innovated years ago (parktronic, distronic, heated rear seats, etc.).
To each his own...but the Lexus is a nice Toyota. How many people would buy them if they were badged as "Toyota LS430" or "Toyota GS430"?
Comparing service experiences between Lexus and MB owners is, unfortunately, embarrassing. If you can get past that, the MB is in a class all by itself.
So very well stated.. I like it. You hit the nail right on the head!
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Man, and Mercedes has dumbed us into thinking we need stupid stuff like Keyless go (wha??) and airbags (when do we need thooose!)... 
A rose by any other name would not smell as sweet...
After I upgraded to v26 software in my BMW Navi, my mom told me that she preferred the BMW navi system over the Lexus navi.
I had to agree with her.. now only if MB can catch up, either that or make their stuff easier to hack/modify and release their code and what not public.
A rose by any other name would not smell as sweet...
After I upgraded to v26 software in my BMW Navi, my mom told me that she preferred the BMW navi system over the Lexus navi.
I had to agree with her.. now only if MB can catch up, either that or make their stuff easier to hack/modify and release their code and what not public.
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Don't discount the "Image Factor". Its there, there's no denying it. How do you think the sales figures would look if MB didn't have a dealer network in North America, and the exact same S Class & E Class cars came into the USA with Chrysler badging, and NO Star, they were sold and serviced at Chrysler dealers, and were known as the Chrysler Imperial, and the Chrysler New Yorker? ...The same exact cars would tank.
Last edited by Barry45RPM; Oct 18, 2005 at 12:36 AM.
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Originally Posted by KrispyK
You know, I haven't visited the W211 forum in awhile, but I can't believe that the Lexus v. MB debate is still going on, albeit in a new thread. So, let me add some fuel to the fire by saying this:
545i!
<Flame Shield On>
545i!
<Flame Shield On>
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Multiple
I was ready for a new car 2 months ago, and after 5 years of Mercedes ownership (2001 E-430) I was predisposed toward a new E-500. I went to my MB dealer and drove all models of the E-Class (E-350, E-320CDI, E-500). I then went to my Lexus dealer and drove the LS430. I was impressed. I went back to the MB dealership and drove the E-500 again and compared prices, features and options of both cars. Everything that was optional on the E-500 seemed to be STANDARD on the LS430. In addition, the Lexus was much more comfortable to drive (when will Mercedes start putting more comfortable seats in their cars?). I was turned off by the center console in the MB and the instrument cluster (who needs an analog clock in an instrument cluster?). In addition the air conditioning system was noticeably better in the Lexus, the audio system was clearly superior, and the Lexus performed and drove every bit as well as the E-500. The ride was clearly better. The Lexus was thousands of dollars less, especially after you added all the options on the MB, and reliability and dependibility of the Lexus has been historically far superior to the E-series. I made my decision and bought the LS430 and have never regretted it. After 2 months and 3500 miles (including a 1600 road trip), I have not found ONE defect in this car. It has been perfect. I lament the fact that Mercedes could not produce a superior car. I found the service at my Mercedes dealer to be excellent but my Mercedes just spent too many weeks in residence there over the past 5 years. A transmission failure at 24,000 miles prompted me to start looking for a new car. I've never regretted my decision.
Last edited by rjm; Oct 18, 2005 at 09:30 AM.
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From: FL410
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Originally Posted by rjm
I was ready for a new car 2 months ago, and after 5 years of Mercedes ownership (2001 E-430) I was predisposed toward a new E-500. I went to my MB dealer and drove all models of the E-Class (E-350, E-320CDI, E-500). I then went to my Lexus dealer and drove the LS430. I was impressed. I went back to the MB dealership and drove the E-500 again and compared prices, features and options of both cars. Everything that was optional on the E-500 seemed to be STANDARD on the LS430. In addition, the Lexus was much more comfortable to drive (when will Mercedes start putting more comfortable seats in their cars?). I was turned off by the center console in the MB and the instrument cluster (who needs an analog clock in an instrument cluster?). In addition the air conditioning system was noticeably better in the Lexus, the audio system was clearly superior, and the Lexus performed and drove every bit as well as the E-500. The ride was clearly better. The Lexus was thousands of dollars less, especially after you added all the options on the MB, and reliability and dependibility of the Lexus has been historically far superior to the E-series. I made my decision and bought the LS430 and have never regretted it. After 2 months and 3500 miles (including a 1600 road trip), I have not found ONE defect in this car. It has been perfect. I lament the fact that Mercedes could not produce a superior car. I found the service at my Mercedes dealer to be excellent but my Mercedes just spent too many weeks in residence there over the past 5 years. A transmission failure at 24,000 miles prompted me to start looking for a new car. I've never regretted my decision.
but it still has Toyota interior parts, and door handles!
