rieger

The E63 fits you just fine because thats what old farts drive. You could sell the porsche but that wouldn't be good for your e-p@nis.

I never said porsche had a bad engine either so not sure where you get that idea from since it does not have a big engine shoehorned in the car does it? Porsche like audi choose smaller engines with greater hp/l of displacement and induction engines rather than pure displacement like the MB engines. If you don't understand this point than no point arguing with someone who thinks displacement means finely tuned engine.

K-A

I think BMW are gonna really nail it with the F10 (I really really hope so at least). I've heard some sources say they're putting extra attention to durability, reliability and solidity, to counter (or keep up with) what M-B has reportedly focused on with the W212. As well I think (hope) they're going to step up the interiors luxuriousness as well.

Also with the XF apparently being called the "Best handling car in its class" by some, I think they are going to obviously take the car to great performance lengths.

Aside from that, the styling looks like a step toward a hybrid of the pre and post Bangle designs.

220S

Yeah, I think I'll head back to BMW soon. As I mentioned, I'll keep the AMG as a long distance comfort cruising car. Sounds like the 550i and M5 will go with FI and twin turbos.

Mule spy shots and PS renderings look good so far. We'll see.

220S

Hmmm. That's kinda funny coming from someone who owns a Lexus GS350 and a E500. Old farts? I'm guessing I'm a helluva lot younger than you.

btw, the motor in my P-car (no pun intended) is a car with a shoe-horned motor. That engine is squeezed into one of the smallest bays out there. I just did the lower valve cover gaskets and had to pull the entire exhaust system out. PITA.

Anyhoo, this is now getting boring for me. Not sure what got you so virulent(?) I made an opinion and you called me 'stupid' from the very beginning Hey, it's not like Audi is your mama or something. WTF?

Just stay away from the ad hominem attacks. It's not healthy. Thanks.

https://mbworld.org/forums/2388440-post429.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/2392762-post442.html

Everyone has an opinion. Right or wrong. But insulting them won't get you very far in life.

gaazmon

Lol, I was at my friends house last night and he has an Alaskan malamute named Nanook. It was his last party at his house before he leaves for college out of state tomorrow night. So, I'm taking him out tonight, just some small places in the valley, a bar then a hookah lounge.

I actually used to live in Glendale, but moved to the west valley back in 2000. Thank you for the invite though. I have many friends in Los Feliz. Wait, where did the idea of Glendale come from?

Ya, I want to get a meet or something going out here in LA area or the valley or something.

Oh, by another drink I was making reference to the officer and the second meeting in the Rose Garden.

K-A

Yup. Same here. My plan at the moment is to wait it out until about 2011-2012, keep my E, and buy a 535i or 550i with all the Sport Package goodies.

We'll see how well keeping on course with that plan works out, heh. Also we'll see how much I like the final product. My rule is I won't let myself get a new car just for the sake of getting a "new car", I've got to truly like it more than, or at least as much as what I have now.

Then again I keep telling myself I should get a Sports Coupe for my next car, so it won't "compete" with my E, and I won't have redundant vehicles.... We'll see.

rieger

I drive those cars because I am young which is pretty funny since you figure if I was young than I would drive a two door sports car. But the fact of the matter is that I am not young enough to drive a two door sports car but not old enough to drive a two door sports car either due to family( young children ). The closest that I can get to a two door sports car is a modified Audi A4. Is this the reason of my defence of Audi maybe but more so because I here to many people on this board who say Audi is a Volkswagen, and Lexus is a Toyota, etc and think that MB is the best etc. I have also owned a 5 series and also a Maxima and all cars have their own niche market and it is very annoying to hear people such as Dcist and other who probably never owned an audi or a Lexus complain about other cars who have no clue of the ins and outs of each manufacturer.
If you read back into the thread you will be able to see that I am not the one who started the hostilities as you are one who started with the sarcasm when I pointed out that a chipped 3.0T V6 can outperform the E550 and The 4.2 has more hp/l of displacement also. I don't see the problem with chip tuning as Kleeman has done it and Giac has done it for years. You then make sarcastic remarks without any explanation of the facts that I presented. Then I start with the personal attacks since your sarcasm obviously is just like a personal attack is it not.
Porsche's philosophy obviously is not to shoehorn the biggest displacement engine into the engine bay since their engines are not big displacement V8's. Their 3.6L engine puts out almost 100hp/L of displacement so obviously it is a highly efficient hp/L of diplacement engine. compared to audi's 80 hp/l and MB low 70hp/l of displacement.
Someone also mentioned Audi has engine problems and I am well aware of some of these problems but does that mean BMW doesn't have any or MB. Well BMW had some Vanos problems and MB also has some Valve problems. The Valve problems are not as severe than the Audi or BMW's but it still is a problem. I just had mine replaced and would have cost me a atleast $2000.00 but luckily it failed just with 6 months left on the extended warranty. I mean this is the least of the problems when you consider SBC.
I like to debate the opinions as much as the next person and don't mind sticking to debating the topic but when someone throws in sarcastic remarks about my opinions, I think I have the right to defend myself and my opinions.

rieger

Do I own a MB? You can say fortunately yes but unfortunately a 2003 E500. The first year and the worst year. Am I pissed yes but more so at MB's customer service and Schrempf cost cutting measures.
No I am not saying E63 owners are stupid I was just saying that chipping Forced Induction cars make a lot more Hp and chipping a N/A engine would be stupid so if someone was going to chip a E63 that wouldn't be the brightest thing.

gaazmon

You can still get a considerable amount of hp for a N/A engine if you chip a 63. Powerchip rates their chip as giving 30 hp and 27 torque. I mean, that's not that bad. I know it's nothing compared to a forced induction engine (I mean the 600 V12TT gets like almost a 100 hp). I even looked into a powerchip for my car, an e320, and it says it gives anywhere from 17 - 22 hp. I mean, if I can get 20 hp, that would be great and I would really like the added throttle response, that is my biggest problem with my car right now.

Ya, you can get more out of modding a forced induced engine, but you risk sacrificing the life of the engine that way and other components. I mean, I have heard many people have problems with their supercharged MB engines such as overheating. Even my uncle that works on MBs said when I was shopping for a MB and mentioned an E55, he said it would be better to stay away from the supercharged AMG. When we were shopping for a C class, he said stay away from the C230 kompressors.

Something funny crossed my mind. My friend has a mustang V6 which is a 4.0L that pushes 210 hp vs my car is a 3.2L that pushes 221 hp. I kind of looked at him like WTF??? Ya, few months later he bought a shelby gt500. Talk about bad hp/l ratio.

Ya, the 03s are nightmares. Really a dark time in MB history.

rieger

Not sure what the problem with the 55 engine was, but I also have a 2000 A4 1.8T and many friends have a 2.7T S4 and mine chipped is producing 250hp compared to stock at 155hp and also similiar torque upgrades and 9 years old and still going strong. And this is my non cruiser car so I really stamp on it and it is ok. Also many friends have the B5 S4 with the 2.7T and chipped and also turbo upgraded to larger turbos and still no problems.
I think MB is able to produce the large V8 and V12 because the clientel is able to pay for it in cost and cost of running but I think in about 5 years this will change greatly and MB better start more on the FI engines or they will run into problems against Audi and BMW. I think this is already a little evident if we look at the sales of Audi, BMW and MB worldwide.
The American muscle cars and american cars in general have a horrible hp/l ratio and they are paying for it now in these low tech engines. If I had to compare the GS350 engine to the E550 or my E500 V8 I think MB should really take note and develope some better engines with better ratios and efficiency. Forget the Audi 4.2 the Lexus does 300hp and it is only a 3.5L v6 and it feels better in the city than my E500 in pickup. The ride is another thing since my E500 does have the airmatic which makes a huge difference.

220S

Gaazmon, I remember a post somewhere that you mentioned Glendale and so I thought maybe you still lived there. I still get back to the old neighborhood (Los Feliz/Silverlake) once in a while.

fwiw, the 63 motor can be unlocked (esp the C, since it's the most locked as of all the 63s stock) to increase hp and torque. I haven't chipped a car since 1995 since "chipping" is really flashing or changing the EPROM. Popular in the old days with FIs. Ya, now you remap modern OBDII ECUs instead on both FIs and NAs, of course. MHP and Kleemann have a TCU remap, too (for the 5 speeds)

A Kleemann, Renntech or Evosport remap (hey, have to give a head's up to Brad, Evo's owner and MBWorld administrator ) along with some bolt ons can make a very worthwhile difference. A high torque increase (519 w/ a K2.) And after all, torque is where the fun is with street driving.

Esp if you actually like high spinning like NA motors. FI is the best bang for the buck in terms of performance but they are still FI motors. Audi/VW kept their motors locked up because of potential reliability issues with FI. Unlocking them can give you a much more substantial boost. And sure, MB still does it (V12) and will do it again as will BMW, etc.. CAFE regs, cost effectiveness, etc.. all play a factor.

C63 owners are doing tunes left and right with big gains (up to the E63 specs)

NA versus FI is a somewhat subjective thing. Plus and minuses on both sides. And we all know this.

imho, the 63 motor is one of the best NA motors around (2009 International Performance Motor of the Year, etc., etc.)

gaazmon

Well there was a rumor at one time that the 63 adn 65 engines would both be replaced (probably in near future) by V8 TT engines. One would produce more output vs the other. I think it sounds like a good idea, especially since they have been using the TT system on the V12s. Always, the V12 cars of MB come with the newest, and sometimes, still being developed technology that then gets mainstreamed. I remember the W140 S600 (even the 92 and 93) had a suspension dampening system for the rear wheels. Fast forward 10 years and lookie here, we have driver controlled suspension adjustments on many of the models.

I think they want to get the turbos done right. BMW has had their share of problems with the 335i's. The 550 doesn't get that bad of gas mileage: 15 city and 23 hwy. Our 02 CL500 gets 15 in the city so they were able to keep the same gas mileage pretty much and add half a litre in engine size and 80 hp.

gaazmon

Ya, I used to live in Glendale, but we moved out to the valley about 12 years ago. I still hang out there sometimes. I have a couple of friends that live in Los Feliz

I agree about torque. Someone on the board had a great quote, "horsepower is how fast you can hit the wall, torque is how much of the wall you can take with you." That's what I love about the 500 engine, 339 torque. It seems to me that even though the 350 and 550 are faster, the 320 and 500 had more torque relative to the hp, which made the driving a little different.

Ya, the C63 has the same engine as the others but has been locked down to like 450 hp (versus all others have over 500 hp). I guess a lot of CL/SL63 owners would be pissed when a car almost a $100k less could literally rape them. The same went for the E/CLS 55. The engine was detuned to 469 hp vs the S/CL/SL having over 500 hp.

RJC

Good point...Porsche has been having issues with heavy oil consumption and/or black soot with some of their new DFI engines (perhaps that's why MB is not using DFI in all their cars yet?) and BMW issues with their new DCT trans.

The engine in my 07 997S was just replaced due to heavy oil consumption, heavy black soot on the left side exhaust and all from a bad piston/cylinder and this engine series has been in production since CY 2004 ,the car was broken in by the book and never tracked...mine was not an isolated case either with quite a few folks on the porsche boards requiring engines to be replaced with these exact symptoms. My lease is up in a few more months and I'm thinking about something non-Porsche even though I've owned many throughout the years. Perhaps it's time to get back in a Benz again? I also agree with other's here that the S5 needs to be close to 400hp to be more competitive, but I'd bet the new supercharged engine could be chipped to the 400 hp mark with big gains in torque ae well. But waiting at least a full model year to reduce the odds of a production issue with the new motor/trans is always smart, but doesn't guarantee anything.

rieger

I think also I was reading on the C63 boards that they were also complaining of heavy oil consumption also but haven't followed up so don't know what is happening now. It seems like many of the manufacturers these days don't care about the reliability of their vehicles and just budget in a larger amount in the price of the vehicles for warranty claims etc. I wonder how much of the price of the car is budgeted for the warranty claims? This would be interesting to see with all the car manufacturers.

RJC

It appears the newer line of engines (modular) have become more of a replacement item these days and are no longer designed to be repaired/overhauled at the authorized service centers but shipped back and rebuilt as replacement units for the next warranty claim.

I too remember reading about some C63's having high oil consumption but cannot recall if it was when they first came out and many were just experiencing break in consumption.

The car co's definetly had to cheapen the quality/components of their product to price them at the levels they are; my 1992 300CE when bought new cost me about $62,000.00 in 1992 which is just about what the new E550 V8 coupe costs now fully equipped 18 model years later!

chairman

OK, I'll dive in... I have had an A6 turbo and an S4 V8. Both of these cars were easy to own and a blast to drive. OK, the A6 was a "little" nose heavy, but with a few mods, the thing was a hoot. The S4 is fast as stink, it eats gas like it costs $1 per gallon. The Recarro seats, the quality of the car is superior to anything I have owned to this point (lots of Japanese and American cars). Service was good for both cars and I never had a major problem.

I have driven the S5 and it is a substantial improvement over previous Audi configurations. It is lighter on its feet and does not dive into corners. The biggest problem is the ordering procedure, for some reason, Audi has created an allocation system that forces buyers to wait 3 to 6 months. Dealers have never had any "in stock". It appears that the new S4 and the S5 Cabrio will suffer the same fate, pity.

I have also had 2 E class cars an E320 and the current 07 E350 4matic. These vehicles are, in a word fantastic "cruzers", rock solid, quick and comfortable. Service has been fantastic. We are looking at the new E sedan and the coupe, we have driven both, I prefer the coupe, my wife likes the sedan for its ability to carry more than 2 people. She also likes the 4 matic, which to the best of my knowledge is not available on the coupe.

I believe that service is all about a good dealer, I feel that we have been fortunate in this regard for both Audi and MB. I think that MB gets the edge here due to its MB loaners and not the Enterprise crap that you can get from Audi.

In my opinion both cars are well built but have different personalities. The S5 would get my nod when compared to the E coupe because its all wheel drive system is standard. The materials in the E coupe feel less "high end" than I expected, but they are by no means in the same catagory as the G 37; IS 350, etc, which feel like parts bin cousins to the Nissan and Toyota that makes them. I can tell you first hand that Infniti has a long way to go in the service arena, since its direct competition, Lexus is world class.

Finally, either one of these fine German cars are far superior to the Japanese cars I just mentioned, period. I would be proud to own and drive either one, oh that's right I do.

Good luck in your search, I am sorry for being so long winded.

stogie1020

Hi all. New guy here (to this forum, not forums in general).

I am happy to find this thread, as this is the exact predicament I find myself in. S5 or E550 Coupe?

Preface: All I have ever driven are Honda and Acura cars. Currently in a 2006 TSX.

I went to the Audi dealership. I suffered through their customer service. I was told there is probably no chance I will get to test drive a 2010 S5 with an automatic tranny (puts flame suit on...). I got the privilege of sitting in a 2009 MT but the dealership was going to close in a few hours, so they weren't sure if I could test drive it. Also, according to She-Rah, queen of the dealership, there are and never will be any lease deals to be had on this car. Ever.

OK, moving on...

Went across the street to the MB dealership. Saw the E550 coupe. Got wood. Test drove it. Got bigger wood. Sales guy noticed the wood, asked me if I liked the car. I said I did. Sales guy asked me to please get out of the car, I had been sitting in it for three hours after the test drive. I was impressed.

So, for the sake of comparison, I will probably call the local Audi Ministry of Auto Sales and Oppression and ask them to let me know if they get a 2010AT S5. I really can't make a decision until I drive it, and I am in NO hurry at all. Except I keep pulling up pictures of the E550 coupe all day at work...

NickR41

For me, and I don't exactly understand how to put this into words, but an Audi is just not a Benz. What's that old saying, you can polish a ...., but it is still a ....

Same for BMW (which I drove a 5-series recently and it took 30-minutes how to figure out how to put it in drive). All the salesman could tell me was how overpriced MB's were, that they can never match a BMW, etc. Blah, blah, blah. I looked at him after and simply responded "this car is no Benz".

Same with Lexus. I recently test drove several models (wonder why they mimic MB model numbers...hmmm). The sales guy made the comment about how you can barely hear the engine. I responded "I want to hear the engine". He looked baffled. I want to feel the car. Side note - I did enjoy their latte's though. Better than that stupid, broken coffee maker at my Mercedes dealership.

I know there is always some hype about all the other German cars. Now we have Lexus, Infiniti and Acura in the mix. They can try all they like.

In summary, the following are three reason why I would get the MB.
A) It's a Mercedes.
B) It's a Mercedes.
C) It's a Mercedes.

anachronist

now, thats a loyal fan right there.

gaazmon

+100

I remember calling a BMW dealership (Bob Smith) for lease pricing on a 328 4-door. When I told him how much the C230 was going for, he responded with "oh, this is a BMW." I said, thank you and hung up.

But you know what in regards to salesman, it's who you get. I went looking for my own car back in Aug 07, comparing E350 lease to 528i lease. The E350 was way expensive (my friend could only get me as low as $699 / mth, basic, 15k miles a year, 39 months). Lol, Calabasas had a 07 key to cure edition and they wanted $850 a month. I went to Bob Smith to try out a 528i. With 15k miles a year, 39 months, and lighting packing he gave me around $550 (and this is right when the facelifted 5 came out). Both of these included like $2k down. Lol, it turned out he was the cousin of one of my neighbors as well. Nice guy, unfortunately I don't remember his name.

K-A

Isn't riding on that very same saying what got M-B into all its troubles in the first place?

rieger

NickR41 is the Mercedes Benz Sales Man and his reply is!
1) It's a Mercedes!
2) It's a Mercedes!
3. It's a Mercedes!

Sold!

Randal70

There is nothing like driving (owning) a Mercedes. Hands down one of the best cars made. Solid, comfortable and sporty..

cmcbenz

I very carefully considered the S5 vs E550c. Drove them both, etc. I used to have an M3, so I kind of understand where the S5 is coming from in terms of its aggressiveness/sportiness. I decided to go with the benz for the following reasons: 1) audi salespersons are the WORST i have ever experienced. they don't know anything about the cars, they told me the MSRP stickers were wrong and they were "investigating" how much the car actually is supposed to cost, and they actually criticized my opinions. 2) the audi is ALL sport but I wanted luxury as well. 3) the back seat seems to have more leg room in the benz, 4) the MMI2 system is fantastic but a bit annoying and not as intuitive as the COMAND system in the benz. 5) the audi tranny is surprisingly rough. i've driven a lot of great cars (M5, E55AMG, 911, vette, M3, etc) and never experienced such a choppy ride.

Just some things to consider. In the end, it depends what you want... both are great cars at about the same price. As for power, I understand they both have the same 0-60 time. But the benz is 150 lbs lighter and has ~60 more torque and BHP.