Mercedes Baby!,Mercedes! Outshines the new 5er..
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,557
Likes: 24
From: Earth
Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
Looking at the pics of both cars in the M/T Article. I still think the Bimmer looks better, although it would have been nice if BMW shaved a bit more of that "bloat/fat" off it, but it's almost there. I like how the Benz looks leaner, and a bit more sculpted.
Only angle that the E really takes the cake to me is in the front, just a much nicer face, at least via pictures, gotta see how the BMW's presence comes off in person. However, the 212's front end rakes waay too far to the ground IMO, doesn't even seem that safe, i.e, looks like the bimmers face would jump right over it in a crash.
Also, the 5 seems WAY bigger, it literally dwarfs the E. Looks like a comparison of an E and 7-Series if I were to just take a quick glance at the pics.
Only angle that the E really takes the cake to me is in the front, just a much nicer face, at least via pictures, gotta see how the BMW's presence comes off in person. However, the 212's front end rakes waay too far to the ground IMO, doesn't even seem that safe, i.e, looks like the bimmers face would jump right over it in a crash.
Also, the 5 seems WAY bigger, it literally dwarfs the E. Looks like a comparison of an E and 7-Series if I were to just take a quick glance at the pics.
Senior Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 325
Likes: 18
From: Canada
W213, C238
You're not getting what he's saying. First off, 220S obviously appreciates what he sees as "good", be it old or new, the 211 is a nicer car to him, so it doesn't matter how old it is, compared to the new one.
Fact is, the 3.5L V6 is NOT a "special" motor, it's a good, substantial, decently powered V6. When one calls a motor "dated", it's usually speaking in respect to how it stacks up to OTHER cars in the segment, HP wise, it's not like he's harping on the car for using Pushrods, lol.
A cars design and a motor are two totally different beasts, one is looked at in an artistic perspective, to some, and the other is simply a technological and engineering based situation.
The 3.5L is not "dated" because it looks old, or is built worse than other motors, it's actually a high tech, and pretty new motor (only been out for 4 years), however performance wise, it's behind in the game, comparison wise.
Fact is, the 3.5L V6 is NOT a "special" motor, it's a good, substantial, decently powered V6. When one calls a motor "dated", it's usually speaking in respect to how it stacks up to OTHER cars in the segment, HP wise, it's not like he's harping on the car for using Pushrods, lol.
A cars design and a motor are two totally different beasts, one is looked at in an artistic perspective, to some, and the other is simply a technological and engineering based situation.
The 3.5L is not "dated" because it looks old, or is built worse than other motors, it's actually a high tech, and pretty new motor (only been out for 4 years), however performance wise, it's behind in the game, comparison wise.
And I never said the M272 compared performance wise to the competition, I said it was perfectly adequate for most driving conditions and was no slouch.
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,557
Likes: 24
From: Earth
Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
K-A. Of course I appreciate that a design and a motor are different beasts. However, both a design and a motor can be dated. And by 'design' I am not just referring to the appearance of the vehicle, I am referring to the chassis, suspension, rigidity and so on.
And I never said the M272 compared performance wise to the competition, I said it was perfectly adequate for most driving conditions and was no slouch.
And I never said the M272 compared performance wise to the competition, I said it was perfectly adequate for most driving conditions and was no slouch.
Where the M272 is "dated" is solely on its HP figures compared to what the rest are offering. If M-B could use the direct injection motor in it (same motor), it would be at 300HP so I'm sure nobody could knock it as much. You do have to admit, it's kind of "lame" for M-B to use the identical motor from a 2006 E350 in its new body, actually, no, using the same motor is not such a big deal if it's good, at least some more HP. M-B has proved that it did have that intent, but decided to wait until 2011 to try and fend off the F10's hype.
I agree, the 3.5L is great to me, when I ask it to, it really does the job of getting up and going, maybe I'm so used to it, but it feels "fast" to me. I don't see the point in having any more power for the road, as I'm barely able to use what I got, and feel good about it when I get on it. However, no doubt if I jumped out of a 535 after a day of driving, I'm sure I'd see things a bit differently.
It says in the spec area that BMW offers "Unlimited" Roadside Assistance? Is that true?
Senior Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 325
Likes: 18
From: Canada
W213, C238
Where the M272 is "dated" is solely on its HP figures compared to what the rest are offering. If M-B could use the direct injection motor in it (same motor), it would be at 300HP so I'm sure nobody could knock it as much. You do have to admit, it's kind of "lame" for M-B to use the identical motor from a 2006 E350 in its new body, actually, no, using the same motor is not such a big deal if it's good, at least some more HP. M-B has proved that it did have that intent, but decided to wait until 2011 to try and fend off the F10's hype.
It is also possible that they kept the M272 for 2010 because they had many units left over after the worldwide sales decline in 2009. There have also been other theories that direct injection can have issues because North American fuel may be less 'pure' than European fuel.
You are correct that no-one would knock the direct injection version at 300 HP, but as I have said, the 268 HP version is adequate, and it is tried and tested. M-B does not need any more reliability issues right now.
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 459
Likes: 6
From: N.J USA
2010 E550.. Gone but never forgotton - E63 AMG..
Indeed, and older body is always gonna literally be an "older" body, design aside, it's not built with as advanced and current steels, etc. Of course our own passions and taste come into play, which is why we make certain choices, or why at least we weight the different options.
Where the M272 is "dated" is solely on its HP figures compared to what the rest are offering. If M-B could use the direct injection motor in it (same motor), it would be at 300HP so I'm sure nobody could knock it as much. You do have to admit, it's kind of "lame" for M-B to use the identical motor from a 2006 E350 in its new body, actually, no, using the same motor is not such a big deal if it's good, at least some more HP. M-B has proved that it did have that intent, but decided to wait until 2011 to try and fend off the F10's hype.
I agree, the 3.5L is great to me, when I ask it to, it really does the job of getting up and going, maybe I'm so used to it, but it feels "fast" to me. I don't see the point in having any more power for the road, as I'm barely able to use what I got, and feel good about it when I get on it. However, no doubt if I jumped out of a 535 after a day of driving, I'm sure I'd see things a bit differently.
It says in the spec area that BMW offers "Unlimited" Roadside Assistance? Is that true?
Where the M272 is "dated" is solely on its HP figures compared to what the rest are offering. If M-B could use the direct injection motor in it (same motor), it would be at 300HP so I'm sure nobody could knock it as much. You do have to admit, it's kind of "lame" for M-B to use the identical motor from a 2006 E350 in its new body, actually, no, using the same motor is not such a big deal if it's good, at least some more HP. M-B has proved that it did have that intent, but decided to wait until 2011 to try and fend off the F10's hype.
I agree, the 3.5L is great to me, when I ask it to, it really does the job of getting up and going, maybe I'm so used to it, but it feels "fast" to me. I don't see the point in having any more power for the road, as I'm barely able to use what I got, and feel good about it when I get on it. However, no doubt if I jumped out of a 535 after a day of driving, I'm sure I'd see things a bit differently.
It says in the spec area that BMW offers "Unlimited" Roadside Assistance? Is that true?
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,557
Likes: 24
From: Earth
Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
No doubt, that's what I'm saying. I drove an E55 before I bought my car, but I REALLY convinced myself that I needed the better MPG's, and Reliability, etc. If I could do it again, I woulda went E55.
Yeah, I come out of a 4 Cyl Malibu and my E feels like a champ, however power is always dependent on what you're used to. If I drove an AMG it'd be a different ballgame, I'd be complaining about cars with 400HP and considering the E350 to be akin to Yugo speed.
True. I wouldn't doubt that M-B had plans for a new motor or the upgraded version had the Sales in 2009 not come to a halt worldwide. 2008 and 2009 really broke M-B in the pockets, they asked for (not sure if received) their own bail-outs, so no doubt quite a bit of original planning for the W212 had to be cut down and deconteted
Yeah, I come out of a 4 Cyl Malibu and my E feels like a champ, however power is always dependent on what you're used to. If I drove an AMG it'd be a different ballgame, I'd be complaining about cars with 400HP and considering the E350 to be akin to Yugo speed.
It is certainly an interesting point, if it is true, that M-B deliberately kept the M272 for 2010 so it could fend off the F10 in 2011 with a newer motor.
It is also possible that they kept the M272 for 2010 because they had many units left over after the worldwide sales decline in 2009. There have also been other theories that direct injection can have issues because North American fuel may be less 'pure' than European fuel.
You are correct that no-one would knock the direct injection version at 300 HP, but as I have said, the 268 HP version is adequate, and it is tried and tested. M-B does not need any more reliability issues right now.
It is also possible that they kept the M272 for 2010 because they had many units left over after the worldwide sales decline in 2009. There have also been other theories that direct injection can have issues because North American fuel may be less 'pure' than European fuel.
You are correct that no-one would knock the direct injection version at 300 HP, but as I have said, the 268 HP version is adequate, and it is tried and tested. M-B does not need any more reliability issues right now.
Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 170
Likes: 1
2010 E350
Looking at the pics of both cars in the M/T Article. I still think the Bimmer looks better, although it would have been nice if BMW shaved a bit more of that "bloat/fat" off it, but it's almost there. I like how the Benz looks leaner, and a bit more sculpted.
Only angle that the E really takes the cake to me is in the front, just a much nicer face, at least via pictures, gotta see how the BMW's presence comes off in person. However, the 212's front end rakes waay too far to the ground IMO, doesn't even seem that safe, i.e, looks like the bimmers face would jump right over it in a crash.
Also, the 5 seems WAY bigger, it literally dwarfs the E. Looks like a comparison of an E and 7-Series if I were to just take a quick glance at the pics.
Only angle that the E really takes the cake to me is in the front, just a much nicer face, at least via pictures, gotta see how the BMW's presence comes off in person. However, the 212's front end rakes waay too far to the ground IMO, doesn't even seem that safe, i.e, looks like the bimmers face would jump right over it in a crash.
Also, the 5 seems WAY bigger, it literally dwarfs the E. Looks like a comparison of an E and 7-Series if I were to just take a quick glance at the pics.
I agree the F10 color(Space Gray) in the MT review pics makes the F10 looks bigger. E class color in those pics is ugly, I wish they had Palladium/iridium silver for the E in this contest. For some reason they show the F10 in it's best colors and the W 212 in it's worst colors when it comes to picture comparisons.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,085
Likes: 59
From: Los Angeles
2009 SL550 Roadster Diamond White, 2008 CLK550 Coupe Obsidian Black
the 3.5L is way under powered, relative to the competition. it's a good engine IMO. i drove a c350 once and it was awesome. but you can get a nissan altima 3.5 or toyota camry v6 with 270hp lol. it was more powerful than many cars when it came out (gs300, 530i, etc), but it fell behind really quick. there is proof the 3.5 engine can get 300hp, look at the 2009+ SLK350, 300hp 265 torque. i'm sure the 2011 C350 will get this engine (for the facelift). here's another thing the bmw i6 turbo is pushing 300 stock, so it's got lot's of potential. that's why MB is going to turbos too. they tested out the concept with the V12's and now they will main stream them with the 6's and 8's.
did anyone else notice 8 gears for the 5??? wtf, not only there is a hp war, but a transmission one now too??? who needs more than 6 gears, i don't get it.
o/t, just noticed no SL600 for 2011 SL. Weird.
did anyone else notice 8 gears for the 5??? wtf, not only there is a hp war, but a transmission one now too??? who needs more than 6 gears, i don't get it.
o/t, just noticed no SL600 for 2011 SL. Weird.
Last edited by gaazmon; Feb 18, 2010 at 11:21 PM.
MB World Stories
The Best of Mercedes & AMG
Manual Mercedes? 6 Times Sindelfingen Let Drivers Have All The Fun
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren
Verdad Gallardo
8 Classic Boxy Mercedes Designs That Have Aged Like Fine Wine
Verdad Gallardo
Flawlessly Restored Mercedes 190E Evo II Heads to Auction
Verdad Gallardo
Electric Mercedes C-Class Unveiled: 11 Things You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes EQS Gets A Major Update: Everything You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
5 Underrated Mercedes-Benz Models That Don't Get the Love They Deserve
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes 300D Has Pushed Well Past 1 Million Miles and It Ain't Stopping
Verdad Gallardo
10 Most Reliable Mercedes-Benz Models You Can Buy Used
Verdad Gallardo
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,336
Likes: 8
Porsche 991S, Cayenne S, 1972 BMW 3.0CS E9 Coupe
K-A. Of course I appreciate that a design and a motor are different beasts. However, both a design and a motor can be dated. And by 'design' I am not just referring to the appearance of the vehicle, I am referring to the chassis, suspension, rigidity and so on.
And I never said the M272 compared performance wise to the competition, I said it was perfectly adequate for most driving conditions and was no slouch.
And I never said the M272 compared performance wise to the competition, I said it was perfectly adequate for most driving conditions and was no slouch.
That's all I said.
And when you said it has adequate power for your daily driving, I replied: "It's not about hp and 0-60. The E350 V6 is just an old motor. Aside from a smaller displacement turbo for efficiency, lower power band torque for daily driving, then there's DI, better mpg, and a better balanced shaft, etc.. Bottom line is that its due for a replacement. That will put it in an even better position as a BMW competitor. Which is why MB is replacing it."
Daimler isn't going to be just cranking out "tried and true motors" and quit its R+D. It's about sales and profitability. You know, making sure people like me don't buy the left over dinosaurs off the dealer's lots.
If you want to talk performance in terms of hp, the M272 is adequate, of course. A Fiat 500 I4 is adequate, too, in the real world. Adequate is relative. It seems to me you've never experienced a true performance car, so naivete is a perfectly valid defense. Again, it's all relative.
But adequate doesn't attract the people seeing newer motors out there being built by the competition, and so it doesn't satisfy the shareholders either.
Come on, Wig. Quit being so defensive about your grocery getter. It's a perfectly good daily. We're all just talking about cars here and not each others own personal value in the world.
Senior Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 325
Likes: 18
From: Canada
W213, C238
And I never said it was a slouch either. Here's what I said: "As far as motors, the old V6 in the E350 is just too long in the tooth. Next year with the new turbos, at they'll be competitive again in that area."
That's all I said.
And when you said it has adequate power for your daily driving, I replied: "It's not about hp and 0-60. The E350 V6 is just an old motor. Aside from a smaller displacement turbo for efficiency, lower power band torque for daily driving, then there's DI, better mpg, and a better balanced shaft, etc.. Bottom line is that its due for a replacement. That will put it in an even better position as a BMW competitor. Which is why MB is replacing it."
Daimler isn't going to be just cranking out "tried and true motors" and quit its R+D. It's about sales and profitability. You know, making sure people like me don't buy the left over dinosaurs off the dealer's lots.
If you want to talk performance in terms of hp, the M272 is adequate, of course. A Fiat 500 I4 is adequate, too, in the real world. Adequate is relative. It seems to me you've never experienced a true performance car, so naivete is a perfectly valid defense. Again, it's all relative.
But adequate doesn't attract the people seeing newer motors out there being built by the competition, and so it doesn't satisfy the shareholders either.
Come on, Wig. Quit being so defensive about your grocery getter. It's a perfectly good daily. We're all just talking about cars here and not each others own personal value in the world.
That's all I said.
And when you said it has adequate power for your daily driving, I replied: "It's not about hp and 0-60. The E350 V6 is just an old motor. Aside from a smaller displacement turbo for efficiency, lower power band torque for daily driving, then there's DI, better mpg, and a better balanced shaft, etc.. Bottom line is that its due for a replacement. That will put it in an even better position as a BMW competitor. Which is why MB is replacing it."
Daimler isn't going to be just cranking out "tried and true motors" and quit its R+D. It's about sales and profitability. You know, making sure people like me don't buy the left over dinosaurs off the dealer's lots.
If you want to talk performance in terms of hp, the M272 is adequate, of course. A Fiat 500 I4 is adequate, too, in the real world. Adequate is relative. It seems to me you've never experienced a true performance car, so naivete is a perfectly valid defense. Again, it's all relative.
But adequate doesn't attract the people seeing newer motors out there being built by the competition, and so it doesn't satisfy the shareholders either.
Come on, Wig. Quit being so defensive about your grocery getter. It's a perfectly good daily. We're all just talking about cars here and not each others own personal value in the world.
I'm off to get groceries.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,336
Likes: 8
Porsche 991S, Cayenne S, 1972 BMW 3.0CS E9 Coupe
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,914
Likes: 261
From: Ontario,Canada
...24 GLE53
And after all that, it always seems to end well. The odd pissing contest is good for all of us. Probably it's what makes this forum one of the better ones.
Last edited by petee1997; Feb 21, 2010 at 10:58 AM.
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,557
Likes: 24
From: Earth
Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
Gotta have a release for these pointless car discussions somewhere, I know in real life if I started talking to people about which M-B design is better, new, old, etc. people will look at me like a capital loser.
