E550Shopper

As mentioned on a couple of other threads, I'm looking for a new car, and E is at (or at least near) the top of my list. However, I've recently become a little hung up on the car's safety -- crash tests in particular.

Here are some details:

NHTSA gives it 4 of 5 stars in front crash. That would have been great 15 years ago -- now most reasonable cars get 4's and 5's, and only a few get 3's. But E's actually just on the edge of 3. In particular, the frontal crash head injury score is pretty bad:

http://www.safercar.gov/Vehicle%20Sh...Detail?ID=8455

IIHS gives the car a top safety pick rating, which is good. Many cars get this rating though. Of those that don't have it, it's often because a complete set of tests hasn't been run yet, not because the car failed a particular test. Further, if you look at the details of the crash tests, the numbers look OK, but not great -- not what you'd expect from a car that so heavily touts its safety.

Also interesting, the IIHS tracks insurance claims for most cars. Again, E trails its competitors for passenger medical claims. (This data is for 2007-2009, so excludes the W212, but I'm guessing it's fairly similar to the W211.)

http://www.iihs.org/research/hldi/co...&sz=4&sort=pip

Don't get me wrong -- I do think this is a reasonably safe car, and to some extent I'm playing devil's advocate here. And, crash tests ignore a whole host of active safety features that come on the E. Nevertheless, I think it's a fair question to ask whether there are competitive cars that are safer. You guys have been very helpful so far -- I'm quite curious to hear that you think about this.

Tjdehya

What do similar luxury cars get? I dont know this for sure but I am almost positive they dont give out 5 stars like they did 15 years ago. If all other cars in its class are getting 5 stars and MB is only getting 4, then you have a point.

The only doubt I have about the E is the fact that in every comparison test I have seen, the E is always in last place when it comes to stopping distance.

220S

fwiw, the NHTSA has designed new stricter testing rules and just announced some new results about a month ago. It's called the New Car Assessment Program (NCAP)

The tougher tests will eliminate a lot of the "high rated" cars since just about all cars are highly rated these days. This is a good thing and will make it more competitive in the safety arena. But we won't be seeing as many high ratings now. It will be interesting to see where cars that placed well earlier this year will end up. The new testing covers 2011 cars so we have to wait to see how the W212 fares again later (the 2010 was already tested.) The 2011 BMW F10 rated the highest. Other cars previously tested dropped in the ratings.

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/10/05/n...der-new-safet/

EDIT: I see that the OP's link to the NHTSA includes the new tests and therefore eliminates the W212 previous high ranking. I'd say though, that by the time of it's facelift that the W212 will have been improved upon by MB. That's what's good about these tests. Mfgs can address the weak points.

After the face lift would be a good time to buy a W212, imho. Not for just for this, but by then it will be a well sorted out car all the way around.

K-A

Here's why I'm convinced that the NHTSA's frontal ratings are irrelevant:

Because every M-B has gotten 4 Stars practically, even before with the "easier" test scores.

And every M-B has always proven to rank amongst, or at the highest in preventing from accident related fatalities.

For example, the early W210 E-Class, practically folded onto itself in the IIHS's frontal test, and was far and away the most protecting car according to crash data, when it came to preventing accident related deaths (I believe of any car on the road, or at least, of any midsize on down).

The W211 also got marginal scores: 4-Stars frontal, and in the IIHS test, got a very weak side score, not only structurally (mainly because the B-Pillar would fold in), but even protectively. The W211 also was rated as the most death-preventing Mid-Size Sedan (on down) out there, and this was the pre-F.L W211 to boot, which lacked the Pre-Safe, Neck-Pro, and some tweaking to the door panels (for better protection).

The W204 C-Class is one of the safest little Sedans, and also gets a 4-Star frontal rating.

I agree that the W212's frontal NHTSA score is surprisingly bad, I even made a Thread about it before. But if there's one area that I feel M-B knows more about than ANYONE, including the NHTSA, and IIHS, it's in safety. They invented car safety, literally.

My reasoning for believing this isn't solely due to any fanboyism, it's due to time and time again realizing a method to their madness, as scores never correlate with how well they do in *real world* accidents, which is what their engineers frankly state when talking about how they design their vehicles in terms of crash safety.

The W212 I'm convinced is the safest car on the road.... Perhaps of all time.

A record use of High-Strength and Ultra-High strength steels, practically indestructible safety cage according to the crash test results, high strength steel technology that is as current as the years the car were being developed, etc.

If you diagnose the cars performance in the IIHS test, in terms of scores, and the way the car looks, and dummy movement, etc., you'll notice how outstanding it is, compared with the F10 5-Series, which is another very safe car, you'll find the 5's dummy to have much harsher movement in the 5's side test, and you'll find the 5's roof to bend and flex majorly in the side test as well.

To sum this all up, why do I feel that the W212 E-Class is the safest car out there? Because it is a safety evolution and (at least statistical, from what we know, along with steel-strength) improvement over the previous safest cars on the road (proven by statistics that really matter: Data regarding cars death ratings and lack thereof), being the previous E-Classes.

Edit: Also, the facelift will probably bring about more safety tech, however this car is loaded with safety tech as it is that the majority of other cars probably won't see for another decade or so, and facelifts never see changes to the actual structure, or structural integrity of M-B models (i.e the general frame, etc.). They're always cosmetic, and tech related, unless the car calls for otherwise (see the weak safety cage of the pre-facelift W210 E-Class). Being that the W212 is so incredibly tank like in structure, it will certainly will see no surgery in this area during its production run. Only thing that has been noted as a safety change, is that the post 3/2010 W212's have "modifications to the door panels to further protect occupants".... I don't know what that means (stated by IIHS), as they all seem identical to me. Maybe some extra cushioning inside them or something.

E550Shopper

Will have some more time to respond in detail later tonight, but in the meantime: K-A, I tried google for fatality stats by model, without much luck. Got any good references?

K-A

Yeah, here's a Link, I believe these are the most recent ones sent out by the IIHS (released in 2007):

http://www.iihs.org/externaldata/srdata/docs/sr4204.pdf

My main query with the W212's NHTSA rating is the drastic dummy movement that is very apparent in the frontal test. It seems everything flails everywhere.

However, note that the NHTSA has been proven to be a very UN-realistic form of frontal crash in the real world.... As slamming into a wall head on, is very improbable, and also, isn't nearly as dangerous or testing on the car, as say an offset crash, which is far more realistic in the real world.

The IIHS has far more rigorous tests, with the frontal offset for one, and the W212 fares perfectly across the board there. I'd say that perhaps in the designing of the vehicle, M-B didn't even bother to concentrate on a "full frontal into a wall" as much as design the car to protect in rough and testing offset, etc. type of crashes.

E550Shopper

This is awesome K-A, thanks. Again, I'll reply in more detail later tonight.

For now though, the remaining question on these stats is, to what extent do they convolute driving style with crash safety? In other words, is it just that these cars tend to be driven by older, more experienced drivers, who aren't driving like crazy? Probably tough to answer but worth thinking about.

K-A

I'm sure that is the case to some extents. No doubt someone at the "lifestyle" or "ability" to afford a Mercedes E-Class (as well as someone who may be drawn to one.... As opposed to let's say, an Acura/Infinite, etc.), will be a more responsible driver. However, if I'm not mistaken, they do rate the "Luxury" Cars in their own segment, so I think that may be the very reason they separate the Luxury cars stats with the economy cars stats.

E550Shopper

So, most cars haven't been tested yet on the 2011 standard -- E included. So, I generally look at the 2010 data (and prior when necessary). And there, E is (essentially) the worst by the NHTSA crash data amongst competitors:

E -- 4 stars (though, nearly 3 stars)
5-series -- 3 stars (though, nearly 4 -- only one that E beats)
A6 -- untested, though A4 gets 5 stars, and older C's get 4
Lexus GS -- untested, though ES gets 5 stars
Acura RL -- 5 stars (and a really good 5 stars at that)

Some other random non-competitors of similar size:

Toyota Avalon -- 5 stars
'08 Volvo S60 -- 4 stars
Honda Accord -- 5 stars, though far lighter than E-class
Buick Lacrosse -- 5 stars

And it's a good point about the stopping distance as well.

Now, my main beef with these tests is that in every case, the test is essentially a one-off. They get one car, crash it. Would be way more reliable if they crashed 10 cars and took an average or something, but obviously that would be 10 times as expensive. :-) But, nevertheless, the methodology leaves something to be desired, I think.

This is why I prefer the IIHS data on insurance claims. But, again, E is near the bottom of its class here -- gets beat by A6, M35, and 5-series. It beats the GS. To its credit, at least for those cars that have claims data, it beats every non-luxury midsize and large 4-door cars, as well as all midsize luxuries.

kingofire

I have never believed in NHTSA. I have a friend who works for them and some of the stories I have heard from him, it is hilarious. Take it with a grain of salt.

ttoE550

I don't know how relevant it is or whether it is propaganda, but I read an ad or saw a commercial that MB test-crashed an unusually large number of E-cars when developing it.

A quick search gives this link which states 150 high-speed crashes and 17,000 simulations. It is not the same I read/saw, but the number is what I remember.

http://www.emercedesbenz.com/autos/m...to-23-percent/

220S

K-A, you need to apply for a job at MB marketing.

If you had bought a new F10 what would you have said?

ps. I thought the latest Volvo S80 was the "safest" car? WTF does the "safest car" really mean in the real world anyway? How can there even be such a thing?

They don't even test new Porsche 997s. Are they death traps? Anyway, it's good that there are outside testing facilities. All mfgs test internally and all mfgs are deeply concerned about liability (it's why Porsche made all their turbos after the 930 as AWD cars; they had their first 'death by driving' civil lawsuit.) But outside testing simply means the data is publicly available and is used to sell and market cars. Granted if something shows up in outside testing, the mfgs will address it. Bad publicity is bad publicity.

A semi is the best thing to drive. Weight is always the winner. Plus Google will be operating our cars in the next decade

E550Shopper

Fair point on the comparison within the Luxury class at least helping to control for driving style.

The IIHS article you cite is great. Though, it's worth noting that the new E gets fairly worse NHTSA results than the '03/'04 E on which the IIHS fatality rate data is based.

It's also worth noting that many of the competitors mentioned above (A6, 5-series, RL) don't even appear on the list, presumably due to insufficient data. Though, the data here is consistent with the claim that E is better than GS.

I should also note that the older E's are actually far better according to the insurance claims data:

http://www.iihs.org/research/hldi/co...=4&sort=medPay

http://www.iihs.org/research/hldi/co...=4&sort=medPay

What I'm starting to take away from all of this is that the E does in fact seem quite safe. Disappointing NHTSA score, but that's almost the only bad data point here.

K-A

Remember, those Insurance claims are talking about the W211, which is a completely different car.

I'll just tell you that I've researched crash data obsessively, and there isn't a single car I think I'd feel safer in, then in a W212. Also, note the roof strength tests, where the W212 is far and away ahead of practically anything else on the road, including most SUV's that weigh tons more than it. 21,000 lbs or so it can withstand if I'm not mistaken.

Like I said, M-B's have always shown relatively "weak" in standardized tests, yet protected second to none in real world crashes. In fact, the W212 is one that shows very well in standardized tests, comparatively speaking. As well, if you look at and diagnose the car after the IIHS crashes, and watch the IIHS video of the side test, you see how outstanding it protects, and how "indestructible" the safety cage is, along with the knowledge of the use of high strength steels (record % number), and the trust that M-B obsesses over safety, so you know everything used is cutting edge in that department, then you should rest easy. Of course, this is if you do in fact give the brand that extra benefit-of-the-doubt trust. Even without that, the statistics and visuals speak in volumes.

I think the fact that the only upsetting score is in the NHTSA frontal test should be more of a sigh of relief than anything, as it's probably the most improbable form of crash of all. Of course, it would be nice if it performed flawlessly there as well. It just seems M-B never really engineers these cars with the intent to slam into a flat wall, considering constant 4 Star ratings.


I'd say that it's a nice ride, but I'd feel safer in a W212.

The F10 is certainly safe, but based on my own "testing" (data, test results), I find the W212 to be the better balanced car, with a more all-around solid safety cage. The F10 got 3 Stars in the NHTSA frontal (?), which doesn't bother me so much, but what would bother me is the relatively "weak" roof crush test, and how the roof seems to bend in so heavily (the moonroof pops out) in the IIHS Side Test.

I'd definitely feel safer in a W212 over an S80. First off, the 212 has 3 years of "newness" in this technology and engineering aspect to it, more airbags, better after-crash visuals, better roof crush numbers, etc. etc.

To me, structural integrity and crash worthiness is rule #1 for a car. A powerful motor in a car that would fold onto itself in a simple crash to me is like lipstick on a pig, per-se. I love knowing that a car I'm in is rock solid in construction. Some people don't care, I guess I've just studied safety too much for my own good.

Also, to add, I will criticize M-B on many things, but one area that I will bow to them, is safety. It's well deserved too, as like I said, they invented vehicle safety, quite literally.

E550Shopper

Well, unfortunately, the same is true for the PDF you linked to yesterday.

As far as I've been able to tell, there's no real-life statistical data available yet on the W212. All we have are the crash tests from NHTSA and IIHS.

Besides, I don't think the cars are all that different. At a minimum, the W212 is going to be more similar to the W211 than it is to a F10.

I'll have to take a look at the IIHS crash tests (at some point in their methodology, I thought I read that the tests are actually performed by manufacturer then reported back to IIHS?), but either way, I'm leaning heavily toward the E at this point.

Beausoleil

I've watched this thread with interest and thought I would chip in with the EuroNCAP data. EuroNCAP has become almost the de-facto standard for UK and continental European manufacturers and Insurers and measure the risk and likely severity of injury to adult and child passengers and pedestrians. Video and aftermath photos included.

http://www.euroncap.com/results/merc.../2010/397.aspx

As has been said, a head-on crash into a wall is pretty unlikely. It is far more likely to be a pole/tree or another vehicle with its own deformable zone. The W212 fares well and gets an overall 5-stars, although this is the minimum acceptable standard for all practical purposes these days. The percentage rating in the various categories are what determines the pecking order. 4-star cars are quickly revised or will fail to sell to their potential.

A point alluded to by the OP should not be underestimated and is obviously outside the remit of a crash test. If your car can help you avoid the crash that another car can only protect you in, it has proved its value. Difficult to prove but the Mercedes Assist Systems and pre-this and anti-that, if they work as suggested, only have to convert one crash into a close shave to make me glad where my money went.

Tjdehya

I still dont understand how you come to this conclusion??? You say the E got 4 stars and the 5-series got 3 stars, the A6 and lexus GS are untested, (you didnt mention the M35). So how did the E get beat by them?
I dont really care to look up the data myself but I just dont understand your thinking on this.

220S

My post was tongue in cheek.

In reality, the "safest car" in the world is really the one you are in at the moment you have a major accident and yet still can walk away.

No one is denying the Mercs aren't built with safety in mind and are "safe" cars. At least not me. And I also think everyone cares about the safety of their vehicle. At least to the point where they wouldn't go as far as driving something they truly don't want to drive and own. My Porsche isn't as "safe" as a new Benz, but that doesn't keep me from owning and driving it. I take certain risks everyday as part of my quality of life; which would be of a lot less quality if I didn't take those risks.

You do seem to imply that only the new cars are safe to drive. Does that mean we must replace our cars every 2-3 years? We do have to live life, despite its hazards.

Anyway, just about every good auto manufacturer touts the quality of their components, e.g.,, "the latest advanced highest quality steel."

"Volvo Gives Credit to New Steel for Enhanced Safety and Top Safety Pick in the Industry for Volvo's 2010 S80"
"Four highest quality steel grades interact for optimal deformation zones in the new Volvo say engineers."
"The new F10 BMW is made of the newest multigrade steel, high-strength steel and hot-stamped ultra-high-strength steel. As before, some outer body panels are made of aluminum, such as bonnet and front fenders."
"BMW is the world’s first car maker to use hard-pressing technology at Plant Dingolfing, with hot-galvanised steel plate first being moulded cold and subsequently heated to a temperature of 900C. Then the components are cooled down in a pressing tool with integrated water-cooling to approximately 70C within a few seconds, being hardened in the process with maximum efficiency. This gives the components involved three to four times the stiffness of conventional steel plate."
"On the plus side, the new BMW chassis has a bending stiffness 55 percent higher than that of the old car."
"Benz engineers say that the new chassis is 30% stiffer, mainly because it's made from newly developed high strength steel while still retaining the earlier lightweight aluminum fenders, bonnet and boot lids."

It goes on and on. And that's what I was pretty much referring to when I said you should get a job with Daimler marketing

fwiw, as far as the use of "new advanced steel" in autos, here's a good source: http://www.worldautosteel.org/Applic.../Vehicles.aspx

It's interesting that steel is sourced from the same vendors in the German auto industry.

But K-A, you do tend to promote and select out the positive in what you happen to own at any given moment in time. Remember the days when you had your W211 and the W212 had arrived? An interesting and dramatic turn around, to say the least.

For the record, I still think the W212 is fugly and will sit out the E Class until I see the W213. My tastes in design are part of my DNA and can't change so easily like that So, I guess I'll be risking my life in the meantime.

E550Shopper

Well, for starters, you're confusing two different data sources -- crash test data, and insurance claims data. The comment of mine that you reference is in regard to the insurance claims data.

K-A

I know it was.

I definitely just don't go off of Press Releases for my safety and safety cell research, however, like I said, one area I will swallow whatever M-B says, is in safety. If they say they use the highest grade steels available at the year the W212 was built, and more of it than any other car in history, then I believe them. Of course, I'll do my own extra research as well.

What determines a super high strength safety cage to me, is in the after-crash data, and the W212 is seemingly bomb proof, no car tested by the IIHS shows so well after a crash.

-------------------
First, I'll point out the roof strength is 21,000 lbs of withstanding power, far ahead of the F10's 15,000 or so (shows in the crash test), which not only is about the highest strength of any car available, but it's stronger than most anything that weighs more than it, not to mention, it's strength VS weight factor is far and away the best.

Secondly, here is the W212, F10, and W211 after an IIHS Side Test:





Notice the F10's weak and caved in roof (popped out moonroof), and the W211's "weak" B-Pillar. The W212 fares outstandingly in both of those areas. Shocking really, as it looks as it can be driven home, while most other cars look like they're ready for the junkyard.

Then, here is some back to back footage of the W212 and F10 in the IIHS side test. Notice how controlled the W212 is, and how much dummy movement is in the F10:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=yABaqS8RikA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW1GWlOCiKg

Then, here is an award, awarded solely to the W212's body, notice it "beat out" cars that cost a ton more than it. Again, I'm thoroughly convinced that the bones of a W212 are the best out there right now, and I'm convinced that M-B doesn't safety engineer these cars to a price point (i.e, the W212 is more impressive safety-wise than a W221), i.e, they're over-engineered safety wise, particularly the W212 at this moment.


Believe me, I'll be the first one to argue that new doesn't always = better in the car enthusiast world, not in looks, overall attention to detail/engineering, quality, materials, etc.. But certain areas will always get better as they get newer, one of them is safety. And for the record, even at my highest of bashing the W212 days, I ALWAYS touted its safety, and M-B's better and better engineering in that department. I'm just giving credit where it's due.

I hope this answers everyone's questions.

K-A

Rest assured that the W212 is safer than the W211, even aside from its higher load impacts in the NHTSA frontal "wall" test. Not only does it have an increased 30% torsional rigidity, it almost doubles the use of U.H.H.S, and has about 7 years of safety research and engineering put into it, not to mention, the enhanced active safety features, and extra airbags.

I'm not trying to convince you to buy a W212, and ANY of these newer/modern Luxury cars are going to be super safe, but I'm a safety-geek, so I'll just go on here.

E550Shopper

No worries -- and I'll probably keep challenging you a bit for the next few days, at least until I make up my mind for sure. :-) Mostly playing devil's advocate, but in any case, enjoying the discussion.

K-A

Haha, no worries, I like these discussions. I used to do this on and on about performance stats, now I get bored kind of quick with that, and I jump into any "safety" debate that I can.... I guess it's nice that they're few and far between though, as I can see it getting tedious as well, lol.

Let us know what you choose. And I can't stress enough, that even my nitpicking "which is better", etc. These cars are so safe nowadays, in a real world crash, I'm sure the differences are more or less negligible, and I don't think it's like you'd die in an F10, and live in a W212, or vice-versa, in an identical crash.