K-A

The W212's stereo is definitely better than the W211's. It's just more dynamic, and more crisp. I haven't pushed the Bass in either enough to gauge a difference, but I'm sure the 212's is just as good, if not better.

As for the seats, I really enjoy them, although the F10 with the Nappa seats is certainly cozier. I find the M-B seats to have a great balance, and driving this car on numerous trips, I'm constantly reminded of how comfortable, and supportive they are.... And my a$$ has never fallen asleep (it did on my W211).

I'm the first to criticize the W212 on areas that I don't feel are up to par. Materials can be more refined, but they are still quality, and it seems the quality trade-off is that you lose some refinement, but gain some durability.

As for solidity, the W212 is strong as an ox, feels like it was carved from iron, etc. etc. Total classic M-B values.

As for the stereo again, I've got to maybe pay closer attention when I'm in other high end cars, but for what I need it's fine, but I certainly wouldn't complain if it was better, or I wouldn't hold anyone back from complaining to them, to continually improve it.

BTW, M-B was never a paper-winner, and stacking up facts as to why other brands can be better, never worked in favor for them. M-B's plus points have always been a little more depthy. I'll be the first to admit I'm an M-B fanboy, but I'm still realistic at the same time. I do think the brands heritage is part of what you pay for (it certainly is a factor for me), and I do give M-B "passes" where I don't give others.... But I'm also more critical of them, and I do have my lists of what is diminishing in the brand (and the list is lengthy). However, when I drive a good Benz, it reminds me of that term: "There's just something about a Mercedes-Benz".

RNBRAD

Obviously you forgot our last conversation. There is no comparison between the 211 and 212, since I currently own both and drive both regularly. The 211 is just flat out dissapointing after listening to the 212's system. There's one clear advantage the MB system has even over some of the most advanced aftermarket equipment and that is the ability to play a true 5.1 format like DVD-Audio (very limited in aftermarket). The quality comparison is significant between standard cd and dvd-a. As for the low bass, it just does not balance or match well with the mids and highs of this car even with the bass gain all the way up. This puzzles me cause I put this car to the test and you can actually get siginificant bass levels from this car with a test CD. I can't duplicate the output under normal listening circumstances. The capability is there though but the downside is you can tell it has small drivers but I was impressed with the output with the test that I had never heard before. This system will shake the trunk and rattle your chest, I promise. Imaging of the stock speaker locations weren't too bad for door mounted drivers. I'm still very impressed with the mid and high resolution of the stock drivers. The dynamics are very impressive, great midbass punch and crisp natural highs with excellent detail and little to no harshness. With MP3 and CD listening it's not too bad, maybe what you would expect, but with dvd-a, quality is exceptional and much better than I expected.

ngerstman

It's a shame there is no level control for the subwoofer. What I find when you turn up the bass control is that you also turn up the level on the mid bass too much which can muddy up the sound. As far as the overall stereo quality, I suppose it depends on what you are used to. I have high end equipment at home and have a $8,000 after market stereo in my 2001 e55. Like I said, I'm not **** to the point where I don't appreciate the positive attributes of the 212 stereo. Better bass would elevate it considerably. Even as it is, I generally enjoy it. The car is so good overall, I guess I need something to complain about!!!! Regards. Ned.

220S

Just for the record I'm talking about the W212 stereo. Sorry but it's not good. And it's a major complaint at my dealer according to my SA (who I have lunch with once a week and talk cars...)

And the W212 DOES NOT have thigh extensions. The seat does not physically extend like BMWs.
fwiw, my W211 AMG has better seats than a W212 non-AMG car.

Here's another thing that the COMAND doesn't have: cover art from the iPod. Not necessary but it's very cool. If iDrive has it why can't COMAND?

220S

You have an older W211 E320. I have the 2009 E63 with the same updated COMAND and HK system on the W212. It was on the later 2009s only. Yes, I play audio DVDs on it.

K-A

Does anyone have Wattage, and speaker, etc. statistics for the W212, and F10, for example? I know the 212 has 14 speakers (a large amount), but can't find much other info on it.

RNBRAD

Wait wait wait!! Playing audio DVD's is a te-totally different animal than playing a DVD-A formatted disc, you know the competitor to SACD. No comparison and I assume you know this and you've listened to the W212 with a DVD-A disc and your report is the system is no good? If so all I can say is WOW!! You can't be pleased.

I was an IACSA car audio competitor and judge from 1992 to 2001, listening to the best car audio systems in the world, some well into 6 figure territory and I still think this system is impressive except for the limited bass response. Seriously though for you guys that are (car) audiophile's and like cool systems, do a search for Earl Zausmer's BMW 540i. I got to spend quite a bit of time in that car in 2001 at the Myriad in Oklahoma City. Very impressive when somone uses tube amps and silver signature series B&W speakers in a car.

As for the seats, they have a seat cushion length adjustment switch that adjusts the length of the seat to fit the length of your upper leg. Whatever you want to call this feature, it does extend the end of the seat out and make it longer.

Oh KA, I think the system is somewhere around 600 watts of power but I'm sure that rating is optimistic. Though really half that would be plenty if it was clean power. I run 200 watts to 11 mids and highs in a single cab truck, but then I run 1000 to the two 12'' subs.

220S

Yes of course I know what SACD and DVD-A are. DVD-A is simply short for DVD-Audio. DVD-A is just a competitor for Super Audio CD. And neither have taken hold, sorry. It's a Linear PCM format and if you want to talk bit depth and kHz, I'm all ears (pun intended.) Both Sonic Solutions (no longer supported) and Logic Pro can author DVD-A (sorry but I'm not a Windows user.)

Seriously you're not talking to neophytes here. I guess we have to list credentials and price levels in order to have validity? Okay, fwiw, my spouse has spent 20 years in the recording industry (as many here know) and we have four closets full of recordings in various media and easily $50k in audio equipment laying around. Our house was paid for by Sony BMG. (although Bertelsmann is no longer part of Sony.)

Sorry, the OEM W212 E Class HK system isn't special at all. It's really nothing to write home about. This is an E Class mid level car so I guess I can't expect much more. But nonetheless my main point was why not offer a premium option. Even on an E Class.

fwiw, the seats do not have an extended thigh support other than a minor extension within the seat length. It does not extend the seat itself. I'm not sure why we're arguing this? Look at the pic below. The top one is a seat with thigh support. It physically extends the seat length by several inches (you mechanically pull it out and it's not just 'pushed up' a little bit within by an electric pump.) The bottom pic is a seat that doesn't have true thigh support. And again, all I was saying is that I wish the MB seats had 'real' thigh support.

220S

I wonder why MBUSA themselves spec the following:

The 2011 E Class

* 8-speaker sound system
* harman/kardon LOGIC7® surround-sound system with Dolby® Digital 5.1



The 2011 S Class

* 600 watts, 15 speakers, a 5.1-channel amplifier, and Digital Dynamic Volume Control
* harman/kardon® LOGIC7® 7.1-channel digital surround-sound system

fwiw, here's are some specs from HK which do not match MBUSA specs http://mercedes.harmankardon.com/en/vehicles/e-class/

Here's a .pdf file of the system. It's the Euro version.

The US spec is this:
* harman/kardon audio. 12‑speaker LOGIC7® system outputs 610 watts of Dolby® Digital 5.1 surround sound. Listening choices include HD Radio™ stations, SIRIUS® Satellite Radio,9 iPod® integration,10 6GB Music Register for uploading MP3 files, 6‑DVD/CD changer and memory card reader.

ngerstman

Wow!! And to think that I started this thread with the topic "airmatic shocks, you like?". We have strayed but into an area where there seems to be a lot of polar opposite opinions. Even among people who obviously care about music and have extensive experience with high end sound. RNBRAD likes the system, 220S hates the system and I'm somewhere in the middle. Interesting. Regards. Ned.

Tjdehya

Thats the standard system. (no option E-class)

Here is the Premium 1 pkg

Specifically engineered for the E-Class, this premium digital sound system fills the cabin with 610 watts of beautifully balanced audio. No less than 14 strategically placed speakers deliver a wholly immersive listening experience through Dolby Digital 5.1 surround sound technology. Digital Dynamic Volume Control impeccably and imperceptibly maintains the sound spectrum for consistent listening pleasure in varying driving conditions.

RNBRAD

Well as the saying goes, you can't please everyone. As for credentials and price levels, we're NOT talking home gear here. I'm not talking (wifes) recording equipment in our closets, we're talking about a sound system in a vehicle. I'm not comparing a car to the finest home audio equipment in the world. You have to judge the car for what it is. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that I listened to a pair of Kharma Grand Enigma's mated to some mono Halcro amps and then tell you your car sounds like crap. I have and I use some of the finest (McIntosh) home and car audio gear made. I currently have about 20k in my home theater and 20k in my comp truck, no comparison. I could never get the spatial aspects and imaging of a well designed home system. Like I said I've listened to countless high end vehicles and I feel I have a very reasonable ear at listening to what a car should sound like, that's because this is what I've done for soooo many years. If your expecting a car to sound like a high end home system, then you could never be pleased, even with the most premium car sound system in the world.

"fwiw, the seats do not have an extended thigh support other than a minor extension within the seat length"

You should of just said the seat does not have an extended thigh support other than a minor extended thigh support, lol. Extension within the seat length, thigh support, yada yada they both serve the same purpose whether it comes out 2 inches or 10. Cause no matter how minor you feel it is, it is still an extended thigh support which according to you, this car "DOES NOT HAVE".

ngerstman

I wouldn't suggest that a car system would sound as good as a super high end system set up under optimal conditions. But room acoustics can have such a huge impact on sound that even the most expensive of home stereos can be significantly compromized and quite frankly, usually are. As you probably know, high frequency response which measures flat at one meter is down 3-5db at your typical listening position above 13-15k cycles. In the controled environment of a car, you can get a lot of those aspects spot on, almost like a pair of really good headphones. So you may have better imaging in your home system but not the flat response that you can get in a really good car system. I know that I've had some car systems that were amazing, Zapco Reference amps, Alpine pure mosfet amps, Focal Utopia speakers, older really good Alpine head units, Pioneer Premier p7 and p9's, etc. Until you've heard car systems that good, you don't know what you're missing(obviously you know). Still I don't think that my e550 system sucks. I wonder if there could be some quality control issues that could be leading to such diverse opinions? Regards. Ned.

RNBRAD

No, if you said it was poor or it sucks, I'd say there must be something wrong. You have some good points and like myself, have experienced great car audio, of course selecting good equipment is really the easy part in a car system. I don't think it's a QC issue here, I've seen a consensus here that it sounds great but lacks some low end, except for one person, that doesn't actually own the car. There's just something "not right" with his input. Maybe he's assuming that the updated system in his 09 is a representation of the 212's system? I hope not. Maybe he's spent a lot of time listening to some premium 24bit and dvd-a recordings in this car like I have over the last 12 months and has some valid experience.

220S

We all have our own opinions and all are valid. Because they are our opinions, and they're based on our own experiences and our own perceptions. That's what an opinion is.....

Try not to get touchy about something you own just because someone else doesn't care for it. And don't assume your experience serves to devalue other people's experiences. I don't think the system in the W212 is anything to write home about and I wish they would offer the choice of a premium upgrade option. Simple as that. I don't think the seats are as comfortable as they could be, and I like seats with true thigh extensions and wish MB had them. I have long thighs and my own experience serves me well. Simple as that.

Everyone tends to be highly qualified in their field. But they go about pursuing that field of expertise with different approaches and differing opinions. That's what gives the world its heterogeneity.

And that's why there's such a diversity in all sorts of stuff out there; cars, audio equipment, cameras, boats, etc.. If we were all creative engineers and made the stuff ourselves then I could maybe see the reason to defend one's creations (and that only depends on one's level of self-confidence, of course.) But we're just consumers and unfortunately we tend to find importance in ourselves by what we own. And so we end up defending those choices to the bitter end. Consumers (and primarily men for some reason) have argued about their choice of toys since Day One. I guess it's some kind of machismo thing....

(fwiw, not long ago someone told me my Porsche was nothing better than a glorified VW and that Porsche doesn't really understand chassis dynamics. And that a motor in the rear negates any possibility taking the car any further. That person dislikes all Porsches and thinks they're nothing to write home about. So what if he hates them? Why should I care? I enjoy them and have for many years. Why try to tell him I have "more experience" and decades of owning Porsches and knowing their history? And that I "know more" than him? There's no point in it. His own opinion wasn't invalid, and it was simply his opinion.)

And I'm not the "only one" who has brought this up about the W212 HK system, btw.

https://mbworld.org/forums/4450828-post30.html

https://mbworld.org/forums/4450337-post26.html

Check elsewhere on the net, and you'll find similar comments......

K-A

What car is considered to have a great system? Something that's accessible. If I ever am around one, I'd be interested to hear the difference of it and my car.

As far as paper stats go, 14 speakers is exceptional in the space that is an E-Class, and 610 watts sounds fine for non competition sound. I did some research on the F10, and I found that the "Premium" sound seems less than the W212's system in speakers/wattage, but there's an "Ultra Premium" system that seems to have about 1K Watts, and 16 speakers if I remember correctly. I just gazed some Message Board to grab that, so it might not be true at all.

RNBRAD

Well according to Tjdeheya, the P1 is the premium upgrade system for this car with an 8 speaker system as standard. But of course just because it has "premium" stamped on it doesn't mean it will be good or even much better than the base option.

Well like I said before, not any single item of anything will please everyone. Some just don't care either way and some like to argue for sake of arguing and some argue out of ignorance. I'm not touchy about this subject cause it's a car I own, I'm touchy about it cause of my years in the car audio industry (dedicated most my life) and my true understanding of car audio. I'm giving you my honest opinion, if I really felt it sounded like crap, I'd be the first to admit it. So this is why I shake my head if a person thinks the system is crap cause I want to hear what they think sounds good in a car. Honestly though when I first purchased my car, I wasn't very happy with the stereo for whatever reason. I think it's because I didn't give it a true listen, and the sat radio sounded rather dissapointing. So this system could be kind of like reviewing and discerning the quality of a 1080p TV using a dvd. Once I loaded a couple DVD-A discs and one DTS recording in the system and some of my reference disks that I was use to listening in other high end car stereo's, I was like Holy ----, this system sounds flippin awesome, (seriously) my exact thoughts, my brother as well who drives a 2009 E335i, and he's the one who got me into car audio so no need to explain his experience. I know the bass is lacking, at least a balance of bass cause I know it's capable. So when someone says to me the system is not good, maybe you can understand why I'm passionate in disagreement. I chalk it up to this person must be listening to HD radio, satellite radio, low bit rate MP3's and then want to post their opinion. I say shoot just slap in the 5.1 HK "test" cd that came with the car if anything and give that a go, it's pretty impressive as well. I'm sure you understand that if you put crap into a system crap comes out.

Do this the next time you have the option or anyone for that matter, slap in the HK test cd that comes with the car (W212), tune it to track 10, underground beats, slide the balance forward 2 notches and to the right one notch. For best imaging turn Logic 7 off, for increased stage height and ambience, leave it on, whatever you prefer. Set bass to full and 2 from full on treble, sit in the drivers seat crank the volume to preference and listen to the track. If you think it doesn't sound good, something is wrong somewhere and this still isn't the quality of a dvd-a disc. Seriously that's how I feel. I know you must of just nonchalantly listened to this system if at all, and this goes for anyone. Like I said, listen to this system with a good source. Nice systems are like HDTV's, they accentuate crappy source material. Since your a hifi guy, maybe not a "purist", but it's like the different quality of vinyl in records. You can use a $70,000 Rockport TT with some crap vinyl and then some would say the Rockport was a crap TT. Just saying you might look elsewhere for the culprit before giving your final answer.

Oh here's a site I forgot to post. Great site to get some reference quality music. http://www.bowers-wilkins.co.uk/Soci...ciety_of_Sound

K-A

The Satellite Radio indeed sounds like crap. I don't know why, but it sounds extremely lo-fi, and like a Cassette. No comparison with the Radio or CD's.

golfster

I have an old Beatles CD. Does anyone here know how to play it backwards? I hear doing so will ulock the secret 3rd and 4th setting with the air suspension.

ngerstman

Follow these instructions: Set the climate control to 87 degrees. Then turn on the windshield wipers to the high setting. Then put on the rear defogger. Lastly drive in reverse at 13mph. That should do it. Regards. Ned.

ngerstman

So how do you like those airmatic shocks? Just kidding. You really turn up the bass and treble controls that high for all your listening? Have you ever done a spectrum analysis on the stereo? I am seriously wondering if there is a quality control issue with these sound systems. How could such experienced listeners have such radically different opinions? Parts sorced from China? All it takes is one of the front in door mid-woofers to be wired out of phase to kill the sound. I saw one post somewhere who said the subwoofer wasn't hooked up. I know that one's memory for sound isn't great, but I had an e350 for 3 weeks in December that I traded back for my current e550 and call me crazy, but I thought that the stereo in that car sounded better than the one in my current car. Let's all get back in our cars and listen to Kumba Ya!!! Regards. Ned.

220S

You keep telling me I know nothing. That's what puzzles me. People have opinions and those opinions differ. Experts have opinions and those opinions differ. You have no clue what my background is. You keep telling me things about different media and playback equipment (and even 1080p analogies that we all know.) You say I'm a "hifi guy, maybe not a "purist." WTF? I know quality music and quality recordings. I know crap in and crap out. I know all the media that's been developed to this day. I've lived with musicians and the music industry for the past several decades. This isn't new.

And we know you're the expert. You've already mentioned it ad infinitum. But you're not exclusive in the world. Nobody is.

All I'm saying is that I don't think the system is that great and I'd at least like to see a factory OPTION. You know, like the SLS offers. I think the Bowers & Wilkins system in the Jag is better; and so forth and so on.

I'm a friend of William Eggleston's and his son owns a company called EgglestonWorks. He engineers and builds super high end speakers. He claims: "In a world crowded with claims of “breakthroughs,” EgglestonWorks simply chooses to offer a product that cannot be done better." Yet not everyone in the world uses his products only because in their opinion there are other products to choose from. If he claims he makes the best in the world, then why doesn't 100% of the world agree......

Can we drop it? It's getting silly. It's like people who argue over Kodak Vision 3 and Fuji Eterna stock. They're all experts and yet they have differing opinions. Or Leitz over Zeiss. Or Panavision Genesis over Red. It goes on and on and on.

This is getting nowhere and it was never meant to 'go' anywhere. I simply don't the think the system in the W212 is really that great (and others in the world agree, too) and I'd like to see a real premium option. And it's not because we who feel this way are inept or naive.

And I don't like the seats either

Arrie

I agree for the sound system part. It could be better than it is but it is good enough for me. The lack of bass is the biggest complaint I have but overall it is a fine system with the surround sound.

But I know this. Some people who are music oriented can really hear the difference between different systems and I agree MB should offer on option for a really premium sound system for people who want to spend money for it.

Multicontour seat I like a lot. At first it feels kind of hard but I noticed one important thing when sitting in the driver's seat: You really need to sit deep in the seat, i.e. your lower back needs to come to meet the lower portion of the seat back. You need to get you butt all the way back. It makes a big difference in comfort when you sit correctly in this seat.

RNBRAD

I'm not telling you that you know nothing. I'm saying something seems rather fishy here. It would be like me saying the E550's airmatic is rough and uncomfortable and you may ask me some questions as to why I'm experiencing this when you don't. I may chalk it off as an opinion and that's that. You may ask what me reference point is or what I'm comparing it to as how I came to this conclusion. That's all this is. I'm saying to you is that you need to give this system perhaps a second chance or another listen under different circumstances as to better duplicate my experience so we are on a level playing field. I think you should compare apples to apples, not a factory car stereo to a 50k home system. Compare this car to the best ever car audio system you've ever heard and then let us know how this compares. Then let us know what your reference is. My reference point from personal experience is really the pinnacle or gold standard as reference for in car stereo's go. My judgement and comparison is based on that and I still would never say this system is no good or crap. That's why I say there's something not right between my experience and yours. I just want to find out exactly what's the "not right" part is. Maybe your reference point is beyond mine and this system really sounds bad. Your analogies above are splitting hairs in the differences and there's always arguments in nuances. The differences you and I are involved in is night and day. I by no means think this system hung the moon, but man this is a factory system that actually uses high end ceramic metal cone materials and speakers that are found in Infinity's high end home theater line, like the earlier prelude series, BMW uses them as well and it shows. As for "pursits" you know, the guys who diss digital media, all analogue guru's. I'm not one, only because I can't afford it and I like some sort of convenience with my storage of music. I can't be fumbling around pulling vinyl out of a wood crates between sheets of felt with sterile gloves. Too much hastle.


ngerstman, I listen to most of my music with that setting except for some DVD-A can get really bright and have to back off the treble. I've used RTA's for years, only because they judge the smoothness or transition of frequencies and they are good for crossover setting and analizing serious peaks and dips. But as many of you know, a smooth curve usually sounds pretty bad. I've always balanced my system by ear and listened regarding feedback for improvements from judges. Several years ago you couldn't make tonal changes to your system between RTA,SQ, & SPL judging portions of the competition which made it really hard to have a good sound and a smooth frequency with high output. Was just real tricky and really made no sense. Now they allow 5 minutes for changes between stations, but with all the digital EQ's these days, it takes just a push of the botton. The symmetry is really what changed all that because as a competitor all you were able to touch during the stations was the volume control. Well the symmetry has VDISC which was volume dependent interactive system control. This allowed for automatic adjustments to take place dependent on where the volume was set. Like for SPL I could adjust my volume to 40 (highest) all my highs and mids would be crossed out for protection, all the low EQ frequencies were boosted and all I did was hit the volume. Yes it was kind of like cheating in a way and that changed the course of competition from that point forward. It was a great peace of equipment, still is. Just nothing like changing x-over frequencies in real time in 1hz increments in all ranges from 20hz to 20khz.

Wig

I am no audio expert, but I agree with those that say there is too little bass. I get far more bass from the front door speakers than I do from the subwoofer in the parcel shelf. If I fade the sound to the rear, I essentially lose almost all the bass sound. There is nothing wrong with my system, AFAIK, and my C-Class had the same problem.

It seems to me that the subwoofer in the HK system does not really do its job.