alloutmk23

Dude, you really take the joy out of posting modifications on the forum. Your like a little kid bickering for a toy he wants. What's the point of ruining this thread? Do you feel better now? Everyone knows the law behind HIDs...so if you don't like the topic...next time don't click it.

bigigg

+1 like i said, look at this guys post's nothing but negative useless info.. hid's are illegal, oo noo im soo scared of the law now.. let me go take them out.

hooligan

I WOULD LIKE IT IF CEB COULD TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A HID PROJECTOR AND A HAL PROJECTOR? IF THE MAIN ISSUE YOU HAVE IS THAT THE HOUSINGS ARE NOT MADE FOR AN HID BULB THEN THE HOUSINGS MUST BE DIFFERENT..BECAUSE THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS THE MOTORS AND CUTOFFS THE HOUSINGS AND LENS ARE THE SAME...YOU ARGUMENT FAILS HERE DO TO THE FACT THAT REGULAR NON PROJECTOR HOUSINGS CAUSE THE WILD GLARE WHEN AN HID BULB IS USED PORJECTOR HOUSINGS ARE A FOCUSED BEAM WEATHER ITS HAL OR HID....

bigigg

THANK YOU! I BEEN SAYING THIS ALL ALONG!

saintz

Wow, this thread is a train wreck. I didn't read it all (common sense dictated otherwise) but I take it the OP is doing something illegal and dangerous, but CEB (the only one that injected any type of facts into the discussion) is the bad guy?

I was going to write a detailed reply on why halogen projector HID retrofits are bad (since this question comes up every few months) but I got lazy. Instead, here is the layman's explanation.

Projector headlights are like shotguns. They fling light everywhere. This is ok when you use a relatively dim halogen bulb, as it works out about the same as old reflector style headlights. The light goes in people's faces, but it's not blinding.

HID headlights are like rifles. They use a projector just like a halogen bulb, but they are much brighter and they use a cutoff to project the light down onto the road and not in people's faces. Optics engineers spend years developing the lens, cutoff, bulb and other parts to work together.

When you put an HID bulb into a halogen reflector (as already noted, illegal) you take that finely engineered solution and throw it out the window. Now you have a light which is way too bright, being shot everywhere. You do not have a properly engineered cutoff. You also move the light source within the housing, because HID bulbs and halogen bulbs do not produce light at the same point in the bulb. When you move the light source in relation to a lens/optic, you have focus problems, namely throwing light everywhere.

One other thing to note is how bi-xenon HID lights operate. For the low beam, they employ the cutoff to shine light on the road and not on oncoming traffic. For the high beam, they rotate the cutoff out of the projector, allowing the bulb to shine freely. In other words, an HID with no (or an improper) cutoff is a high beam. If you put an HID bulb in your halogen projector, it is like driving with your high beams on, all the time.

Ok, where's the proof? The OP says there is glare in the photo. That is not because of the camera. That is because the headlamp is throwing glare in the face of every oncoming driver, and the OP's picture is documented proof of this fact. This happens for all the reasons listed above. It's illegal for this reason. Even if you never get ticketed, you are endangering yourself and every other driver on the road in front of you. Even if you don't care about them, you should probably care about blinding them so they swerve into you.

If you want HID lights on a halogen equipped road car, the only way to do it is to retrofit the projector as well as the bulb. You can talk to the two most knowledgable people on this board: Zam2000 and Raymond G. Here is a full write up: https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w...tor-retro.html. This uses a proper HID projector from an E55, Audi RS6, Acura TSX, etc. rather than reusing the improper halogen projector.

I like modifying my car, too. But I also consider the safety of myself and other driver's on the road. Anyone interested in installing HIDs has been provided the legal and scientific rational behind the right and wrong way to do it. If you want to install HIDs in a safe manner, I'm sure you'll find plenty of encouragement, just like if you were doing other modifications like a K&N filter or muffler. But if you do something unsafe and illegal, be it HID bulbs in a halogen housing, trying to turn on dyno mode so you can scare your kid on the way to school, or using a jack without jack stands, there will hopefully continue to be people to explain why you shouldn't.

hooligan

THE PROJECTORS USED ARE THE SAME FROM EITHER BULB SET UP ON MB THE CUT IS USED TO KEEP A DEFINED LINE FROM TOP TO BOTTOM...AGAIN PPL FAIL TO PROVE AS TO THE DIFFERENCE FROM ONE HOUSING TO THE OTHER WHY...CAUSE THERE ISNT ONE PROJECTORS DO NOT FLING LIGHT EVERYWHERE ITS A FOCUSED BEAM COMPAIRED TO A NOT PROJECTOR HOUSING

THE ONLY THING DIFFERENT IN BIXEON IS THAT THE LOW AND HIGH ARE INCORP INTO ONE BULB THEY DONT HAVE ANY SPECIAL BEAM CUT OFF INCORP INTO THE BULB.

BUT WHAT IT COMES DOWN TO IS..DID THE OP ADJUST THE AIM SO AS NOT TO BLIND ANYONE..YES HE DID.. IS IT HIS CAR AND CHOICE..YES IT IS...


AND SORRY FOR ALL CAPS..IM AT WORK AND ITS ALL I USE WHEN WORKING IM NOT YELLING GUYS LOL

BIGIGG I APPLAUD YOU FOR DOING IT YOUR WAY REGARDLESS OF THE RIGID OPPOSITION

saintz

If the projector is the same, then why does the OEM HID projector have a clean cutoff but the OEM halogen projector with aftermarket HID bulb does not?

The answer is because the projectors are different. Even if they were the same, using a rebased bulb is a problem for the reason I noted above, namely that an H7 halogen, H7 rebased HID, and D2R HID all have different light emission points because of the different design of each bulb and base. To simplify, even if the projector was the same, the bulbs are not. They create light differently, and even a single millimeter difference will make a huge difference in light output focus or lack thereof.

I take it by your comment that you have taken apart both a Mercedes OEM HID and halogen projector and taken measurements to compare that both are identical, and then cross referenced this with part numbers to compare? Given that the scientists and optics engineers at the NHTSA, DOT, Daniel Stern Lighting, etc. have determined that rebased HID bulbs in halogen projectors are dangerous, I would probably trust them until you have documented evidence otherwise.

The one solid piece of evidence we have here, for people that don't want to believe math, science, physics, optics, scientists, engineers, etc. is that the OPs car throws glare. He said it himself, and even apologized. The picture also confirms it.

hooligan

SO YOUR DRIVING THE TRAIN NOW?

NICE LIGHTS BIGIGG THE END

saintz

Just for reference, here's a thread from someone who did a retrofit using an E55 HID projector. You can see the clean cutoff which keeps from blinding oncoming traffic. http://www.sl-i.net/FORUM/viewtopic.php?p=146504



Below is the OPs. Note the area I circled in red, which is the blinding glare caused by incorrect optics. In an HID projector, this would be blocked correctly by the cutoff. This is what I'm saying specifically is dangerous and this is why this approach is illegal.

bigigg

"If you put an HID bulb in your halogen projector, it is like driving with your high beams on, all the time".

I tested the lights out after install.. my E class was driving down the road towards me, on level ground.. i tried it both in an suv and a regular car(I was in the opoosite cars).. was not blinded at all! Like i stated before i would not install hid's and keep them in if they blinded on coming traffic! You can post all the facts you want

CEB

Screaming probably doesn't get you heard any better. Remember that the physical characteristics of an HID bulb versus a halogen bulb are quite different. That was demonstrated in one of the first links I posted. Since you guys didn't like that link, here is a link from Candlepower Inc. - a seller of aftermarket lighting.

And, for those of you unable or unwilling to click on the link, here is an excerpt:

"Now, what about the notion that it's OK to put "HID kits" into halogen projector headlights because the beam cutoff still appears sharp? Don't be fooled; it's an error to judge a beam pattern just by its cutoff. In many lamps, especially the projector types, the cutoff will remain the same regardless of what light source is behind it. Halogen bulb, HID bulb, cigarette lighter, firefly, hold it up to the sun—whatever. That's because of the way a projector lamp works. The cutoff is simply the projected image of a piece of metal running side-to-side behind the lens. Where the optics come in is in distributing the light under the cutoff. And, as with all other automotive lamps (and, in fact, all optical instruments), the optics are calculated based not just on where the light source is within the lamp (focal length) but also the specific photometric characteristics of the light source...which parts of it are brighter, which parts of it are darker, where the boundaries of the light source are, whether the boundaries are sharp or fuzzy, the shape of the light source, and so forth.

As if the optical mismatch weren't reason enough to drop the idea of "retrofitting" an HID bulb where a halogen one belongs—and it is!—there are even more reasons why not to do it. Here are some of them:

The only available arc capsules have a longitudinal arc (arc path runs front to back) on the axis of the bulb, but many popular halogen headlamp bulbs, such as 9004, 9007, H3 and H12, use a filament that is transverse (side-to-side) and/or offset (not on the axis of the bulb) central axis of the headlamp reflector). In this case, it is impossible even to roughly approximate the position and orientation of the filament with a "retrofit" HID capsule."
____________

One should also note that in many light sources, part of the reflector (in laymen's terms) is built right into the bulb itself. The housing design (be it reflector or projector) relies upon that reflector to properly focus the beam from the housing or projector.

Another interesting tidbit from this site is a description on how to properly aim headlights. It is far different from the "pull up to a garage door and twist a few screws" methodology so prevalent on these forums and undoubtedly the method used by the OP and his fanbois.

So I leave you with a challenge. Contact Candlepower, DanielStern or NHTSA and ask them the same questions. You'll get the identical response from all of thembecause you cannot change the physics of light

hooligan

AGAIN SAME OPTICS JUST A CUTOFF WHICH KEEPS THE LIGHT ON THE GROUND..BUT STILL THE SAME PROJECTOR USED.

THE OP WAS LIKE 10 FEET FROM THE TESTING AREA TOO IM SURE THE LIGHT WAS LOWER AT THE PROPER TESTING DISTANCE

BUT I AGREE THE THE CUTOFF IS BETTER AND SAFER BUT THE OPTICS/HOUSING ARE THE SAME THAT IS MY POINT

bigigg

Not that its terrible, but after spending alot of $ and time on a retrofit, that pic clearly shows that its uneven cutoff

hooligan

BIGIGG IF YOUR EVER IN AZ HIT ME UP WE CAN HAVE A BEER AND BLIND PPL TOGETHER..BUT NOT IN A GAY WAY YO..LOL(LINE FROM THE KOBY FAN)

captj3

I understand what you guys are saying and the information that was provided. I put HIDS into my low beams. The light pattern is the same as my old infiniti. the cutoff on the drivers side keeps the beam down and out of oncoming traffic. The passenger side projects the same distance as my other car did. I have driven down the road to test how the headlights effects on coming traffic. I did this on lighted roads and roads with no street lights, and switching cars to see the difference between the too. I didn't nor did the other person in the other car have any issues with glare from the HIDS. No it is not scientific data,but it's the best I can do at the moment. If I found that there was blinding glare I would take the lights out. In regard to the aftermarket statement for off road use only. That is there legal loop hole. Just look at intakes and exhausts they all have that stamped some place on them. Yea, I know I just started something else...lol

CEB

You're a flaming idiot. Don't you know that facts have no place in this discussion?

It it clearly facts and physics versus a couple of bullies and their fanbois. Sheesh, even their screen names speak volumes.

CEB

CEB

That just goes to show that you have no clue about lighting and optics.

hooligan

CEB ITS FUNNY HOW YOU TRY TO POINT OUT THAT PPL ARE BULLIES BY CALLING PPL NAMES

YOU SIR ARE A DOUCHE AND IM DONE WITH YOUR MOD HATE PROPAGANDA

CEB

That is NOT a legal loophole. It actually goes toward showing intent to break the law and provides the authorities with more ammunition when it comes to ordering recalls and fining importers, distributers and sales outlets.

There is no recognition of the term "off road use only" in the law. If it can be fitted to a street legal car then it needs to comply with all applicable laws.

hooligan

YOU GOT BEAT UP AT THE BUS STOP A LOT DIDNT YOU

bigigg

Hey moron get it in your head already! My lights arent blinding, there for im keeping them in, and dont regret the install one bit. On that note GET A LIFE, AND GO DECIDE WHAT COLOR CAR YOU SHOULD GET, SINCE YOU NEEDED A POLL TO FIGURE IT OUT. LOSER

bigigg

I love how a grown man is calling other people "bullies" haa what a tool!

bigigg

No comment on the fact that we did our own road tests and there was no glare or blinding? Whats better than a hands on test in person as opposed to what some guy wrote in an article? Your a joke!

saintz

Again, the cutoff and projector work as a system. Even if the projector is the same, the cutoff is critically important. The cutoff in a bixenon is the difference between the low and high beam. If you put an HID bulb in a projector with no cutoff, you have turned your low beam into a constant high beam. This is a fundamental problem with HID bulbs in projector housings. Halogen bulbs can work with no or a less functional cutoff, because they are not as bright. HIDs are much brighter and cause much more glare, so they must have a cutoff, and the cutoff, bulb, and projector must all be engineered to work together. When you change any of these factors, even by a millimeter, you disrupt the system and get the results shown.

If you guys have tested your systems and think they are safe, then best of luck. I'm just telling you that the law, science, and the pictures that have been posted all say the opposite. The posted picture shows a very bright light shinning far above where it should have been cutoff in a properly engineered system. I generally trust the opinion of experts using equipment to conduct tests, rather than a single personal observation which can be influenced by things like ambient light, weather, etc. Perhaps your car didn't blind you, but it might blind someone with glasses, or in the rain, etc. That is why engineers test a variety of conditions and circumstances when they develop a lighting system.