K-A

There's a Thread in the AMG Forums that shows a decapitated W212 in which the owner was able to get out of, with his life and health thankfully intact.

It brought along a question that is brought up many times these days (a valid question), followed by my Reply and a host of media/data/facts/etc. that I've collected and put together, showing certain E acclimations. It's a worth a check:

The 3 first pics showcase the E's most similar examples: First is the W212, followed by the F10 5-Series, followed by the W211 E-Class, then a Chevy Malibu which is a "Top Safety Pick" as well for good measure.

Actually, reading between the lines shows that the E is still the safest bet. Not only does the frame look UNTOUCHED while other new cars, including the 5-Series, have caved in roofs and side B-Pillars, but the roof strength is at the top of all cars as well. Much stronger than the 5-Series' roof (both cars get "Good" ratings, however). Also, remember that about anybody can pass "Safety Tests" nowadays, but the W210 and W211 E's proved that even with less than great safety scores (neither cars were so impressive in Standardized Tests), they both showed up to have the LEAST FATALITIES of all similarly sized cars (or in some cases, all cars in general) in terms of real world crash data (where M-B's have always especially shined).

Also, the E uses advanced steels not found on the vast majority of other cars (Mega High Strength Steels), and used a higher total of High Strength Steels than any car in history, at the time of its launch. Not to mention, the W212 received the Award for "Best Bodyshell" in 2009, beating all others, including the Jaguar XJ, Audi R8, and BMW 5-Series GT.

WEBSRFR

Great find!

Somewhat related is the death-rate and how accident stats affect different trim levels of essentially the same car... A while ago I found an article that listed the death rate of various vehicles and what I found really striking is the difference in death rate between the exact same model with and without AWD.

In the case of the W211, according to the report, there has been ZERO deaths reported for W211 with 4MATIC equaling the same ZERO death rate for the Audi A6, which of course has Quattro AWD. The death rate for the RWD W211 is 12. While that number is significantly lower than average it is quite shocking to see the disparity in the exact same identical vehicle with and without AWD.

https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w...teresting.html

All in all it is great to see safety improving and manufacturers across the board taking safety seriously. It is great to see the W212 receiving the award for the safest design but how did it beat the W221?

K-A

Good point about the AWD. I've noticed that as well. It seems that AWD models all show SIGNIFICANT less death rates than 2WD versions.

As for the W212 VS W221, the W212 came a few years later and I remember M-B stating that "The W212 uses advanced High Strength Steels that weren't even available a year or two before production". Not to mention uses 72-ish % High Strength Steels throughout the structure (a record at its launch), while the W221 uses about 50-ish%. Basically, what M-B applied to the W221 safety wise, they just evolved on with 3 years of time to do so with the W212.

BenzV12

I have heard that W212 are the safest car ever made by MB with respect to steel materials and body shell too .
Thanks for bringing this topic , I like the way door closes too , a thawk sound same as older solid MB cars .

petee1997

Hold on! AWD is not necessarily safer. The reason there are less fatalities is the fact that so few are sold compared the the RWD.

threeMBs

I do not buy the argument since all A6s (which are by far mostly AWD) have zero deaths. I thinkg that this directly atributed to the fact that, as you well know, its easier to avoid an accident or severity of it in (a quality) AWD (like W212/211 or A6) in adverse weather conditions or on less than perfect road.

WEBSRFR

Not true. If you look at the article I quoted they did not count all, they counted it as a percentage/ratio of X vehicles registered. So it is stats and facts in the purest sense with the higher volume RWD normalized by taking a net ratio as opposed to a gross count.

Also don't think for the E class 4MATIC accounts for "far fewer" models sold. It is less but not as less as you think. Go to cars.com, expand the search radius to all and search for W212s out there and you can see the breakdown. Might surprise you as more people are opting for 4MATIC.

And yes, AWD is necessarily safer all things being equal. It could never hurt to have 2 extra wheels with traction to get you out of a bad situation. I'd never buy a car without it and you don't need snow to realize the benefits of AWD. All you have to do is look at the stats posted on the article I quoted to see that it is a fact that someone has yet to die in a AWD W211.

We are arguing over nothing essentially here as these cars we drive are some of the safest cars on the planet. I just wanted to point out how real world fatality figures can change dramatically for different trim levels of even such a safe car.

WEBSRFR

Exactly!

K-A

The AWD factor is definitely worth noting, as even if you check the injury claims on the iIHS Website, you'll see AWD versions having less injury claims, etc. than the RWD siblings. Is it because they're comparatively "rarer"? Perhaps a bit, but I think it also must go to show how much traction (most natural form of active safety if you think bout it) plays a role in preventing the car to use its passive safety features (safety cage, mechanical engineering, etc.) to try and save you.

WEBSRFR

K-A, on the article you posted, do you know/have the captions for the 4 cars? Are the first 2 W212s and the next 2 W211s? Are the first two after a 35/40 MPH side impact? If so that is absolutely incredibly awesome as the passenger compartment is almost untouched and it looks like the energy was just directed away and absorbed by the safety cage...

Great find! BTW I can only imagine what they will do to make the upcoming W222 even safer!

ImInPA

Be careful with statistics. The AWD advantage could very well be because 1) most E's on the roads are small engined (6 cylinders or less) and not real high performance cars. 2) Many of MB's RWD are straight performance cars (e.g E550's, E Coupes, etc.) . Performance/Sporty cars may have a statistical bias for higher deaths. It is not really an apple to apple thing. Just my two cents. As I said in another thread, there are three types of lies: 1) Lies 2) Damn lies and 3) Statistics.

WEBSRFR

And sometimes statistics are just facts represented with numbers

Your explanation would make sense if they counted gross numbers, which they did not. They calculated the rates by normalizing both segments to a million. Still you can't discount the fact that there has been 12 RWD fatalities for the W211 and 0 4MATIC fatalities for the W211.

Also your performance car reasoning does not explain the aberration. I just did a national check for the ratios and what I found is that about 42% of all E350s sold have 4MATIC and about 30% of all E550s sold have 4MATIC for the W211. So there are enough numbers in there to yield a good statistical sample.

The one interesting point you raised which I am curious about is what part of those 12 fatalities came from actual AMG vehicles...

Also as someone else pointed out, the 4MATIC death rate matches the 0 deaths for the Audi A6, which of course has Quattro.

Now of course you are welcome to reach your own conclusion and you are entitled to your opinion but as for me, I consider this irrefutable proof that in general you are safer in a 4MATIC car when faced with less than ideal situations and real world facts in terms of historical accident data seems to support this conclusion.

ImInPA

Blah blah blah. There are many more determine factors than AWD and RWD. What were the engines. How many years of driving experience did the drivers have. Did each of these drivers have the same driving records? Were the weather conditions the same in each accident? Was alcohol involved? Do other vehicle manufacturers have similar results? (100% of Subaru Fatalities occur with AWD). Blah, blah, blah.

ttoE550

I dislike your statement that statistics are lies. I believe more that "Statistics don't lie; people do." IIRC, the book with the title that you keep repeating really makes the point that people manipulate statistics to cause others to draw incorrect inferences. That does not seem to be the case here. There is no manipulation. No lies. Just potentially wishful thinking.

BUT, I think I agree with your overall idea that perhaps there are potentially incorrect inferences. Namely, there is an interdependence between how careful a driver might be and the choice of 4matic. The 4matic is not free; it must be chosen by the driver. So who would choose 4matic? Well, aside from the badge, there is no aesthetic value and no way to know it was chosen, so it must be chosen by those who place a premium on safety, for whatever reason. I.e., by drivers who are likely to be safer. Safer drivers have fewer accidents, and fewer chances at dying.

Yes, these drivers might live in more dangerous (e.g. snowy) areas, which might offset the driver safety factor. Regardless, the independence is broken, so drawing inferences about the car independent of the driver is potentially incorrect and misleading.

I have 4matic, so I'm sort of on the side of that it adds to safety. Really, I just like that it hauls a$$ in any conditions. But in adverse conditions, I am generally the first to slow things down, pull off, whatever, until things are safe or I am 100% sure I cannot hurt anyone or myself. Maybe a lot of people who get 4matics are just like me. And maybe a large group of the 2-wheelers aren't. And maybe that alone explains the statistic.

As IminPA says, 100% of the Subaru and Audi fatalities occur with AWD. I owned a Subaru, and I can tell you the insurance rates aren't pretty.

ImInPA

Lighten up buck-o. I never said all lies are statistics. Its just that without a full understanding of the methodology used, the variables measured, sample sizes, and some of the other things I mentioned above, statistics can, and often are, used to make a wide sweeping assumptions. I rely on statistics for my work so I am quite familiar and certainly not opposed to them. But, to make my point, I show an absolutely valid and factual statistic that 100% of all Subaru fatalities occur in AWD equipped vehicles. While true, it does not imply that AWD Subarus are less safe. While 12 deaths in a RWD E's Vs 0 in AWD may look like it proves some advantage in safety, the numbers are so low as to be statistically insignificant. I would think that MB sells far more RWD vehicles than the more costly AWD, especially with fleet sales such as rentals and taxis, etc. In fact, in all my trips overseas, I do not believe I was ever in a 4Matic MB Taxi. So, relax. I don't hate statistics. I just don't overextend their significance.

WEBSRFR

Blah blah blah?

How silly of me to make a point with facts and figures and try to have an intelligent discussion.

Which reminds me... "Don't argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

Cheers and safe driving!

WEBSRFR

Thanks for the insightful bit about people actually choosing 4MATIC and that possibly having something to do with how people drive and that affecting the facts quoted in the article.

And I agree with your assessments that these are just facts and nothing is manipulated here. It is actually a pretty large sample size as the W211 has been around for a while. As car enthusiasts (and possibly interested in safety) it is sometimes good to know facts so we can draw our own inferences...

K-A

Yeah the first car is a W212 E350 RWD (white one)
Second car is a new 5-Series
Third is a W211
Fourth is an '09 Chevy Malibu.

They're all at the same speed/level of impact (I believe arund 35-40 MPH).

Yeah, look at ANY cars safety cage after that specific test. The W212 looking like you can literally drive away with it afteward, is OUTSTANDING. I've never seen anything like it. Even the F10 5-Sereis shows its roof caving in (the whole sunroof explodes if you watch the IIHS video.

The cars I posted all have strong safety ratings. If you look at "lesser" cars, you'll see some that make all those look impressive, however, the W212 looks seriously indestructible to a degree which I've yet to see from those tests (though, lots of cars nowadays are showing stronger and stronger safety cages, naturally).

As for RWD VS AWD in those standardized Side tests, it wouldn't technically make a difference in that passive safety, as the safety cages are identically engineered.

ttoE550

Hmmm...I must not have written something the way I meant it, because I am in agreement with what you say, except for the lie part.

You are correct that we do not have enough information to say that buying the 4matic makes you any safer. (I would also argue that we don't have enough solid information to argue otherwise. ) But insurance companies do have that information, and they have methods to deal with small sample sizes, etc. When I bought my car, I specifically asked my insurer whether the 4matic made a difference on the insurance rate, and IIRC they didn't care. It wasn't significant in any case.

Regardless, often it turns out that the major influence on the safety-related statistics is the typical driver who selects the car. When I bought my E, my insurance costs went down even though I was replacing an old Subaru WRX worth less than 1/10th of the E. My insurer specifically told me that the main reason for the high insurance rate on the WRX is that a large number of people who buy the WRX are young, interested in modding them, and are wannabe racers who can't afford traditional racing programs/venues (i.e., they street race). These cars were statistically a disaster, way out of proportion with say the non-WRX Subaru Impreza, even though they were essentially the same car except for the turbo. You can't use the statistics here to say, for instance, that turbo-charged engines are killers, even though you could make up reasons related to turbo lag, sudden turbo thrust, etc., that would sound good.

And, again, I am saying this as someone who has a 4matic and feels safer in one.

WEBSRFR

Yikes! The W211 looks like it is in pretty bad shape after the side impact. Wow so the photos are in fact after the side impact crash of a W212. That's truly amazing as the side of the car looks almost pristine. You were not kidding when you said they designed the W212 so well Great find and thanks for sharing

K-A

No prob! Yeah, when I speak so highly about the W212's safety cage, I'm doing if off of all those incredible acclimations listed/screenshot above, and of course that "logic defying" aftermath in the IIHS pics. I mean, the car seriously looks like it can get new doors, and be driven away!

plun9

Here is a car with similar results: