Difference between staggered and non staggared wheels??
09-08-2012, 05:13 AM
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Difference between staggered and non staggared wheels??
I know for staggered, the rear wheels are wider than than the front. But what difference would it make for performance and safety wise if the wheels are staggered? I am thinking about getting a new set of 19 inches. Just wanted to find some info on this.
09-10-2012, 03:59 AM
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A car that understeers. i.e. does not want to turn, is way more difficult to handle in crisis situation. Emergency (hand brake) not being hand operable in these and so many other cars today takes away the only good tool that could be used if the car was pushing thru the corner. Hand operated e-brake was easy to use to lock rear wheels and bring the car back under control as it makes the car over steer.
Of course the driver needs to know how much and when to apply the brake but atleast it used to be possible to do. Without this tool understeering car easily just runs thru the turn as the only way to help is to get speed down, which usually is too late as the under steering situation starts because the speed for the turn is already too high.
A perfect exampe how over steer works is the rallye cars on dirt roasd where car steering is done almost 100% by a controlled over steer.
Last edited by Arrie; 09-10-2012 at 04:05 AM.
09-10-2012, 07:14 AM
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No, totally wrong.
A car that understeers. i.e. does not want to turn, is way more difficult to handle in crisis situation. Emergency (hand brake) not being hand operable in these and so many other cars today takes away the only good tool that could be used if the car was pushing thru the corner. Hand operated e-brake was easy to use to lock rear wheels and bring the car back under control as it makes the car over steer.
Of course the driver needs to know how much and when to apply the brake but atleast it used to be possible to do. Without this tool understeering car easily just runs thru the turn as the only way to help is to get speed down, which usually is too late as the under steering situation starts because the speed for the turn is already too high.
A perfect exampe how over steer works is the rallye cars on dirt roasd where car steering is done almost 100% by a controlled over steer.
A car that understeers. i.e. does not want to turn, is way more difficult to handle in crisis situation. Emergency (hand brake) not being hand operable in these and so many other cars today takes away the only good tool that could be used if the car was pushing thru the corner. Hand operated e-brake was easy to use to lock rear wheels and bring the car back under control as it makes the car over steer.
Of course the driver needs to know how much and when to apply the brake but atleast it used to be possible to do. Without this tool understeering car easily just runs thru the turn as the only way to help is to get speed down, which usually is too late as the under steering situation starts because the speed for the turn is already too high.
A perfect exampe how over steer works is the rallye cars on dirt roasd where car steering is done almost 100% by a controlled over steer.
Understeer is a situation where the front wheels break traction before the rear, for most drivers, such as yourself, this is a safer situation, here's why. When you feel the car begin to lose control what's your initial reaction? It isn't to hot dog it and rip the parking brake which by the way is the OPPOSITE of what you should do.
Your initial reaction is to lift off the throttle causing the car to load the front tires and guess what??? You regain traction on the front of the car and the it steers again. Pull the parking brake, you load the rear of the car taking even MORE weight of the front making it worse.
In an oversteer situation where the rear breaks traction and the car begins rotating (spinning) you've got to do several things all at once. You will have to counter steer with razor accuracy AND add throttle. Why? The front tires have MORE traction than the rear.. adding throttle shifts the weight of the car to the rear tires and off the front. Reducing or even reversing steering input (counter steering) will fight the car from completely coming around.
Rallye car drivers have abilitites way beyond ours and purpose built cars. They actually have a brake bias lever, it is NOT a parking brake do not confuse the two. In order to negotiate the tight corners they will throw the car into the corner creating the oversteer situation in a precise and controlled manner. It is a delicate dance between steering input and the brake lever / throttle.
If you're in the norcal area I invite you out to one of our races. I'll take you out in one of my racecars and demonstrate both situations and let you decide how to fix either one.
Every year there's a Porsche backwards into the wall because the inexperienced driver turns his nannies off. Porsches are notoriously oersteering cars. The car oversteers, the driver lifts and you end up with a rear tire under the passnger or drivers seat. (Not a knock on Porsches or their drivers but they do tend to voer steer DESPITE stagger) I think some are throttle induced oversteer but the result is the same.
EDIT: ALL cars will understeer - there is a speed if exceeded whereby the car will not turn when you want it to regardless of what you do.
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09-10-2012, 11:24 AM
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bigigg - agreed - however the OP's question was in regards to performance advantages which there are none. Aesthetically I prefer it on sedans - my E30M3 is staggered but I've compensated with swaybars, it's fairly neutral.
I could not let the previous post by Arrie go as it was way way off base. I know suspensions and I'm a fairly good driver - I had to respond.
I could not let the previous post by Arrie go as it was way way off base. I know suspensions and I'm a fairly good driver - I had to respond.
09-10-2012, 11:35 AM
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I'll be completely honest here, i didn't think of cornering/under steer/over steer etc.. first thing that comes to mind when i think staggered wheels is a drag car with massive rear tires.. anyway i also have staggered setup and im 4matic.
09-10-2012, 12:04 PM
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Exactly - the perfect example of understeering setup. Out of all four tires the rears are the most important ones, a drag car is not required to turn, only make minor adjustments in a straight line. It's a great extreme example...
09-10-2012, 12:40 PM
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Thanks for all the input guys. Just didn't expect all the discussion about the over/under steering =P. I was just wondering if there is any downside if I get either one of them. Turns out I don't need to worry about those.. as I'm not a drag or rally racer haha. I think I'll stick with the staggered setup for aesthetics..
However with a staggered setup I wouldn't be able to rotate my tires..
However with a staggered setup I wouldn't be able to rotate my tires..
09-10-2012, 12:47 PM
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Thanks for all the input guys. Just didn't expect all the discussion about the over/under steering =P. I was just wondering if there is any downside if I get either one of them. Turns out I don't need to worry about those.. as I'm not a drag or rally racer haha. I think I'll stick with the staggered setup for aesthetics..
However with a staggered setup I wouldn't be able to rotate my tires..
However with a staggered setup I wouldn't be able to rotate my tires..
You got the meat of it anyway!!
09-10-2012, 01:29 PM
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treadwear
Thanks for all the input guys. Just didn't expect all the discussion about the over/under steering =P. I was just wondering if there is any downside if I get either one of them. Turns out I don't need to worry about those.. as I'm not a drag or rally racer haha. I think I'll stick with the staggered setup for aesthetics..
However with a staggered setup I wouldn't be able to rotate my tires..
However with a staggered setup I wouldn't be able to rotate my tires..
I think I saw one thread where a tire that was guaranteed for like 50,000 miles was reduced to a 25 or 30K guarantee IF it was run in a staggered
set.
09-10-2012, 01:35 PM
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MiniBobber, I will definitely keep that in mind when I get my tires if I go for the staggered setup. Thanks!
As for the rims.. I like the vossen CV4 style, but does anybody else have recommendations for brands based on quality of their rims/pricing?
As for the rims.. I like the vossen CV4 style, but does anybody else have recommendations for brands based on quality of their rims/pricing?
09-10-2012, 01:36 PM
#15
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ALANME123, go with the staggered. Don't worry about performance differences in the two settups, you will probably never have a understeer problem(and definitely not an oversteer with the 350) in the future like most people on here(most of us don't drive like grand prix drivers,,,lol). If all MB vehicles were rwd they would all have staggered settups, but just the 4matics do for same overall size reasons(I know, some guys put staggered on 4matics, but have to miss match sizes to get the overall tire diameter close). Good luck on your choice of wheels and tires, and post some pics when complete.
09-11-2012, 12:51 AM
#16
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Your post is completely innacurate. The hand brake is not an emergency brake, it is a parking brake.
Understeer is a situation where the front wheels break traction before the rear, for most drivers, such as yourself, this is a safer situation, here's why. When you feel the car begin to lose control what's your initial reaction? It isn't to hot dog it and rip the parking brake which by the way is the OPPOSITE of what you should do.
Your initial reaction is to lift off the throttle causing the car to load the front tires and guess what??? You regain traction on the front of the car and the it steers again. Pull the parking brake, you load the rear of the car taking even MORE weight of the front making it worse.
In an oversteer situation where the rear breaks traction and the car begins rotating (spinning) you've got to do several things all at once. You will have to counter steer with razor accuracy AND add throttle. Why? The front tires have MORE traction than the rear.. adding throttle shifts the weight of the car to the rear tires and off the front. Reducing or even reversing steering input (counter steering) will fight the car from completely coming around.
Rallye car drivers have abilitites way beyond ours and purpose built cars. They actually have a brake bias lever, it is NOT a parking brake do not confuse the two. In order to negotiate the tight corners they will throw the car into the corner creating the oversteer situation in a precise and controlled manner. It is a delicate dance between steering input and the brake lever / throttle.
If you're in the norcal area I invite you out to one of our races. I'll take you out in one of my racecars and demonstrate both situations and let you decide how to fix either one.
Every year there's a Porsche backwards into the wall because the inexperienced driver turns his nannies off. Porsches are notoriously oersteering cars. The car oversteers, the driver lifts and you end up with a rear tire under the passnger or drivers seat. (Not a knock on Porsches or their drivers but they do tend to voer steer DESPITE stagger) I think some are throttle induced oversteer but the result is the same.
EDIT: ALL cars will understeer - there is a speed if exceeded whereby the car will not turn when you want it to regardless of what you do.
Understeer is a situation where the front wheels break traction before the rear, for most drivers, such as yourself, this is a safer situation, here's why. When you feel the car begin to lose control what's your initial reaction? It isn't to hot dog it and rip the parking brake which by the way is the OPPOSITE of what you should do.
Your initial reaction is to lift off the throttle causing the car to load the front tires and guess what??? You regain traction on the front of the car and the it steers again. Pull the parking brake, you load the rear of the car taking even MORE weight of the front making it worse.
In an oversteer situation where the rear breaks traction and the car begins rotating (spinning) you've got to do several things all at once. You will have to counter steer with razor accuracy AND add throttle. Why? The front tires have MORE traction than the rear.. adding throttle shifts the weight of the car to the rear tires and off the front. Reducing or even reversing steering input (counter steering) will fight the car from completely coming around.
Rallye car drivers have abilitites way beyond ours and purpose built cars. They actually have a brake bias lever, it is NOT a parking brake do not confuse the two. In order to negotiate the tight corners they will throw the car into the corner creating the oversteer situation in a precise and controlled manner. It is a delicate dance between steering input and the brake lever / throttle.
If you're in the norcal area I invite you out to one of our races. I'll take you out in one of my racecars and demonstrate both situations and let you decide how to fix either one.
Every year there's a Porsche backwards into the wall because the inexperienced driver turns his nannies off. Porsches are notoriously oersteering cars. The car oversteers, the driver lifts and you end up with a rear tire under the passnger or drivers seat. (Not a knock on Porsches or their drivers but they do tend to voer steer DESPITE stagger) I think some are throttle induced oversteer but the result is the same.
EDIT: ALL cars will understeer - there is a speed if exceeded whereby the car will not turn when you want it to regardless of what you do.
Mr. (or Ms.?) Norcal,
You have absolutely no knowledge about driving the car in slippery conditions. You don't even know that the hand brake, emergency brake and parking brake are all the same thing. In the early days and still in lot of cars in Europe and other coutries it is a hand operated brake. And it in most cars operates only the rear brakes for a specific reason, which is to be able to lock/control the rear brakes independently from front.
If you knew just the basics of this I would not need to be writing this. If you would ever have the skill to drive a car the way where the brake is needed you would be able to go try but obviously you are not and you cannot possibly understand any explanation of it. Someone else try, good luck.
And this thread was not about this anyway. This is the last on this topic from me.
Last edited by Arrie; 09-11-2012 at 12:57 AM.
09-11-2012, 07:13 AM
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Mr. (or Ms.?) Norcal,
You have absolutely no knowledge about driving the car in slippery conditions. You don't even know that the hand brake, emergency brake and parking brake are all the same thing. In the early days and still in lot of cars in Europe and other coutries it is a hand operated brake. And it in most cars operates only the rear brakes for a specific reason, which is to be able to lock/control the rear brakes independently from front.
If you knew just the basics of this I would not need to be writing this. If you would ever have the skill to drive a car the way where the brake is needed you would be able to go try but obviously you are not and you cannot possibly understand any explanation of it. Someone else try, good luck.
And this thread was not about this anyway. This is the last on this topic from me.
You have absolutely no knowledge about driving the car in slippery conditions. You don't even know that the hand brake, emergency brake and parking brake are all the same thing. In the early days and still in lot of cars in Europe and other coutries it is a hand operated brake. And it in most cars operates only the rear brakes for a specific reason, which is to be able to lock/control the rear brakes independently from front.
If you knew just the basics of this I would not need to be writing this. If you would ever have the skill to drive a car the way where the brake is needed you would be able to go try but obviously you are not and you cannot possibly understand any explanation of it. Someone else try, good luck.
And this thread was not about this anyway. This is the last on this topic from me.
Multiple regional championships, uncountable podium finishes in "underpowered" cars. I started a racing class in Norcal that now boasts the one of the largest run groups in North America. PointsixRacing/VMWERKS designed and built race cars and engines win at nearly every event they enter. I personally consult with winnig drivers on a weekly basis.
The first woman competitor in SpecE30 drove on one of our cars....
The offer still stands, come take a ride in a racecar
Last edited by norcal_cyclist; 09-11-2012 at 07:20 AM.
09-11-2012, 07:23 AM
#18
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I don't know about all that preformance stuff but, I can tell you from personal experience that staggered tire setup does not get good tread wear on tires. My '10 now has 19800 miles on it. At 17000 miles was informed by dealer rear tires wearing poorly. The Pirelli PZero tires have a tread life wearout warranty of 45000 miles. I contacted Pirelli and was told, effective 1/1/2012 Pirelli tires using the staggered setup in the rear now have a 22500 wear out warranty. I processed a warranty claim and received 2 new tires for the price of one. Good deal or bad deal, doesn't matter, tires had to be replaced. I am not a hot dogger and drive witihn speed limits. I was told the problem is the unavailability to rotate is the problem.
Last edited by Firestopper0383; 09-11-2012 at 07:26 AM.
09-11-2012, 08:50 AM
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L'ing OL.................
yeah, the attempt at disarming norcal was hilarious!
don't take it norcal!!!!
LOL
yeah, the attempt at disarming norcal was hilarious!
don't take it norcal!!!!
LOL
09-11-2012, 11:08 AM
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I don't want to sound like a braggart but I really do have quite a bit of experience. I don't instruct as much anymore but I still teach in the Tire Rack Street Survival School with the BMWCCA when it's in town. We teach the kids in threshold braking, skidpad, and slalom excercises.
My take on instructing adults is this...
"I build a very fast very safe race car, it weighs about 2600lbs and has approx 350hp. I design the interior for safety and comfort, full fire supression system, best of breed Racetech Viper Challenge seat and Racetech belts. The car is outfitted with an FIA comparable rollcage. I wear a HANS device, HJC helmet, top of the line Sparco firesuit, fireproof socks, gloves and shoes along with a balaclava. Some of this stuff isn't required for my racing series, I wore a HANS before they were mandatory, I had a right side net WITH a head restraint seat before it was necessary." I take to the track with equally like minded individuals who I respect and trust with my life, and we race, we race hard and we race to win. Ego's are left in the paddock...
As an instructor I have a shoulder harness, helmet and no fire system. The student has a 600plus HP Corvette, Porsche, whatever. How safe am I now? I'm on track with 30 other folks just like this one who sometimes think that Lewis Hamilton's job is on the line and Mercedes scouts are at the track that day. Ego's are almost too big to squeeze into a helmet."
I can tell you without meeting him, Arrie is that guy. All knowledge and NO experience, even after one humbling trackday he wouldn't repeat a single sentence of either of his posts. He is the reason I do not instruct anymore unless it's a friend or colleague.
09-12-2012, 09:51 PM
#21
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Thanks
I don't want to sound like a braggart but I really do have quite a bit of experience. I don't instruct as much anymore but I still teach in the Tire Rack Street Survival School with the BMWCCA when it's in town. We teach the kids in threshold braking, skidpad, and slalom excercises.
My take on instructing adults is this...
"I build a very fast very safe race car, it weighs about 2600lbs and has approx 350hp. I design the interior for safety and comfort, full fire supression system, best of breed Racetech Viper Challenge seat and Racetech belts. The car is outfitted with an FIA comparable rollcage. I wear a HANS device, HJC helmet, top of the line Sparco firesuit, fireproof socks, gloves and shoes along with a balaclava. Some of this stuff isn't required for my racing series, I wore a HANS before they were mandatory, I had a right side net WITH a head restraint seat before it was necessary." I take to the track with equally like minded individuals who I respect and trust with my life, and we race, we race hard and we race to win. Ego's are left in the paddock...
As an instructor I have a shoulder harness, helmet and no fire system. The student has a 600plus HP Corvette, Porsche, whatever. How safe am I now? I'm on track with 30 other folks just like this one who sometimes think that Lewis Hamilton's job is on the line and Mercedes scouts are at the track that day. Ego's are almost too big to squeeze into a helmet."
I can tell you without meeting him, Arrie is that guy. All knowledge and NO experience, even after one humbling trackday he wouldn't repeat a single sentence of either of his posts. He is the reason I do not instruct anymore unless it's a friend or colleague.
I don't want to sound like a braggart but I really do have quite a bit of experience. I don't instruct as much anymore but I still teach in the Tire Rack Street Survival School with the BMWCCA when it's in town. We teach the kids in threshold braking, skidpad, and slalom excercises.
My take on instructing adults is this...
"I build a very fast very safe race car, it weighs about 2600lbs and has approx 350hp. I design the interior for safety and comfort, full fire supression system, best of breed Racetech Viper Challenge seat and Racetech belts. The car is outfitted with an FIA comparable rollcage. I wear a HANS device, HJC helmet, top of the line Sparco firesuit, fireproof socks, gloves and shoes along with a balaclava. Some of this stuff isn't required for my racing series, I wore a HANS before they were mandatory, I had a right side net WITH a head restraint seat before it was necessary." I take to the track with equally like minded individuals who I respect and trust with my life, and we race, we race hard and we race to win. Ego's are left in the paddock...
As an instructor I have a shoulder harness, helmet and no fire system. The student has a 600plus HP Corvette, Porsche, whatever. How safe am I now? I'm on track with 30 other folks just like this one who sometimes think that Lewis Hamilton's job is on the line and Mercedes scouts are at the track that day. Ego's are almost too big to squeeze into a helmet."
I can tell you without meeting him, Arrie is that guy. All knowledge and NO experience, even after one humbling trackday he wouldn't repeat a single sentence of either of his posts. He is the reason I do not instruct anymore unless it's a friend or colleague.
Well,
I just have to break my promise asthis norcal seems to know everything about driving. Seems like he is a big track guy but track driving very little has to do with driving on roads especially in snow and ice, which I did for 20 years in a country where this white stuff is on roads 6-7 months of the year. Guess it does not qualify for experience in drivin under slippery/hazardous conditions. Perhaps I could teach some in here how to save an understeering car from going off of the road by using the hand operated parking brake if there was a car like that available.
09-12-2012, 09:54 PM
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Well,
I just have to break my promise asthis norcal seems to know everything about driving. Seems like he is a big track guy but track driving very little has to do with driving on roads especially in snow and ice, which I did for 20 years in a country where this white stuff is on roads 6-7 months of the year. Guess it does not qualify for experience in drivin under slippery/hazardous conditions. Perhaps I could teach some in here how to save an understeering car from going off of the road by using the hand operated parking brake if there was a car like that available.
I just have to break my promise asthis norcal seems to know everything about driving. Seems like he is a big track guy but track driving very little has to do with driving on roads especially in snow and ice, which I did for 20 years in a country where this white stuff is on roads 6-7 months of the year. Guess it does not qualify for experience in drivin under slippery/hazardous conditions. Perhaps I could teach some in here how to save an understeering car from going off of the road by using the hand operated parking brake if there was a car like that available.
09-13-2012, 10:12 AM
#23
09-13-2012, 10:14 AM
#24
Hell, my 2013 Smart ForTwo has a staggered setup: back wheels are wider than the front wheels. I'll have to get it down to the track! My 0-60 is currently 16.5 seconds . . . that could use some work.
09-13-2012, 04:18 PM
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2010 E350 Luxury Sedan, Engine 272 (V6)
Honest Question
Why does M-B use staggered and non-staggered tires on the cars anyway?
I got the Luxury version because it has 17" wheels and non-perfromance tires and therefore has a more comfortable ride. Additionally, tires can be rotated.
BTW, if you look in the owner's manual for any car, it will refer to the handbrake as a parking brake. Long time ago, they called them emergency brakes. Modern cars are too powerful and go too fast for the handbrake to seriously reduce the speed. It's also a liability suit thing regarding what the brake is called.
I got the Luxury version because it has 17" wheels and non-perfromance tires and therefore has a more comfortable ride. Additionally, tires can be rotated.
BTW, if you look in the owner's manual for any car, it will refer to the handbrake as a parking brake. Long time ago, they called them emergency brakes. Modern cars are too powerful and go too fast for the handbrake to seriously reduce the speed. It's also a liability suit thing regarding what the brake is called.
