K-A

What "debate"? I can (and have) schooled people on knowledge about these two cars, I know them like the back of my hand. It's gotten too tiring to read through your posts. I've broken down how both drive and work via extensive first hand experience, and shared facts about both that most here won't know who haven't had the exact two models which I've had of which I use to refer to. Simple as that.

That's the entire point. A good car gets "why mess with perfection" treatment, therefore it doesn't NEED many changes, because it's *timeless*. Drastic changes aren't meant for Luxury/Premium Cars, which is why it looks so unbecoming of M-B to show no confidence or foresight in their own creation. They had to make a joke and prematurely date the pre-facelift by trying to trick people into thinking the awkwardly extensive facelift was a "new body" (see the magazine articles that referred to it as a "W213"). Then they have to discount the things more than any car that I've ever witnessed AND add C chassis cars to make the numbers look appropriate, even while the smaller 5 Series is still crushing it worldwide?

Sorry, you can apologize and let M-B get away with all the lousy errors you want, but I actually DO like the brand, and would rather they get back on track, create timeless cars that don't need drastic changes that essentially ruin the long term "respect" of said model. Look at M-B's of past, that's what built the brand, timeless cars that were created to go the test of time.... not that needed comprehensive changes to try and make it look like a totally different car just 4 years in.

This is the difference between M-B and BMW guys. BMW guys in passionate frenzies, sometimes justified and sometimes misguided, will kick and scream and sometimes force BMW to listen and change something. M-B isn't a brand that draws as much passion, it's a more clinical following who have an adoration of the concept that is "Mercedes". I get that, I was and still in some ways are one of them. However, I notice that M-B loyalists will let the brand get away with ANYTHING and still support them, and will never question their design directions, instead will just follow them and assume it's "better this way". That's at least my perception based on what I've picked up on my time on M-B boards.

stale-bread

From K-A "Rear door popped open once on the highway (not completely open, into the secondary latch and the door was still safely locked and "shut"). And it happened to the drivers door another time (again, into the secondary latch, door still locked, so not actually "open" but "unsealed yet locked"). "

You dont find this disheartending at all? If anyone else posted this on the W212 Forum you would be up our *** about this. And you seem to accept this as a quirk with your BMW? Good to know. I would not want to be a passenger in your vehicle.

"You can be an apologist all you want about M-B's various actions to fudge the this E generation to save some face (multiple models under the name to inflate sales numbers."

And what about the 3 series multiple models?? Sedan, Coupe, Vert, Wagon? Does this not apply to BMW? Oh but wait, this is about the E series. My bad.

I've owned BMW's long before your time and they make good cars but this is a MB forum so why don't you keep your worthless vitriol comments to Bimmerfest? Oh, I'm sorry but it appears your K-A account inbox is full and no one can leave you messages there. In case anyone is interested to troll his account, it's "K-A" there as well.

And honestly dude, You sound like a bitter ex-gf. when in reality you amount to nothing but a little person behind a keyboard being an a$$hole. I'm betting this comment gave you hard on because trolls like you you get off on this. You are a tool.

Dema

Dollar talks. No one other maker gives so high discount as MB. So if you could correlate the chart to another as discount amount then MB could be a leader as well.

AudiA4Turbo22

We let MB get away with murder, because even with the issues we face the cars are still that good that we can close one eye at the problems. As for the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" concept, that's out dated thinking. Samsung releases a completely revamped phone every 6 months and people flock to buy them, cars will be the same soon. People want fresh designs and tech, as beautiful as my Audi is it really needed a better facelift, one that dealt with the countless issues and grossly under powered engine. I think Mercedes did the right thing on the w212, they changed it enough to get current w212 owners to upgrade now rather than hold off for the completely redesigned model. So these buyers will likely upgrade twice while bmw owners will only upgrade once to the new model. Mercedes sets the luxury standard and it seems that AMG sets the performance luxury standard as well.

K-A

Problem is, the cars aren't that good anymore, the E350 is so far behind the 5 Series and in many ways even the A6 or GS in so many ways that it has to get discounted to hell and needs reconstructive surgery prematurely just to stay viable. Even MB's old calling cards like safety and solidity are far behind the 5 now (30 percent less chassis rigidity, 86% NCAP Safety score vs 95% for the 5). Your reasons for why the E needed such an extensive makeover so soon are honestly excuses. Every other maker on their game watch their designs not NEED extensive changes for mere facelifts and they still do great, whilst MB has sacrificed timelessness completely with the E, this brand used to be all about timelessness and BMW is nailing timeless designs today. While MB keep doing about-facelifts because they can't get it together.

Let's not get into drivetrains. The N55 and ZF8 in the 535i is a masterpiece while the POS 7G and laggard N/A V6 in the E350 is literally amongst worst in class, if not worst in class.

Handing? The E350 practically handles like an old Caddy (actual words from a friend who drove my old E350).

Then to appease shareholders, they release numerous models under the E name and start over diluting the Benz brand with substandard fwd cars and spin off's that in some cases can be attained for under $30K. Then they "celebrate" a sales victory that was more so a marketing strategy.

Munich77

Isn't BMW even worse at that? You have a fwd coming out. And they are way diluting the brand. I can tell you that a prolonged test drive in a 535 x-drive without comfort seats was enough for me not to get one.

The N55 power train is great but for that recall - which bolt is likely to get loose in the engine?

K-A

You mean the recall of M-B V6's that shot bolts out to tech's? Lol.

The N55 is pretty bulletproof, more-so than M-B's horrendous 7G transmission that's over 10 years old now and was lousy from the get-go.

BMW hasn't released a FWD yet. M-B did. BMW did bring a 4 cylinder to this segment in the States before M-B, I'll give you that, and I resent that, but interestingly, the 528i performs about the same as the E350 in terms of real world figures (BMW engines are vastly underrated from the factory) and it's MUCH more efficient than the E350 (as is the much faster N55 535i as well).

Yes, BMW are diluting as well, I hate the "GT" models that look like wagons or "SAV's" which now look like some new GC's (4 "GC"), etc. But nobody is diluting like M-B. Not only do M-B have the LARGEST fleet of cars on the ground already, but they are adding more and more and most are at the lower end of the spectrum. The CLA is a bad joke to the M-B brand and the "GLA" I literally thought was a joke.

M-B now has TWO Coupes sharing an identical chassis, the "E Coupe/Vert" which artificially inflates "E" segment numbers, and the Honda-Accord lookalike "C Coupe".

M-B have regained a "sales crown" in the U.S, but it's by using marketing strategies to appease shareholders. BMW are also masters of this, but M-B really took it to new levels. Yet even with the largest (most diluted) fleet of cars, they still trail worldwide.

M-B SHOULD be selling the most cars, they have the most cars on the ground for sale, and they discount by far the most (in the U.S, at least).

PeterUbers

Cheers! Thanks man. What's next on the horizon for the //M5? Do you see them upping torque and hp soon -- it seems that this season's M5 is the best ever built...

petee1997

I just love K-A. He convinces me each time that MB is the best value. I, like many others here, have had many BMW's. They are great cars but they are not a Mercedes Benz.

As far as worldwide sales are concerned, MB was very late entering China. They are there now K-A and expect big discounting to gain market supremacy.

Finally K-A, you must find yourself a girlfriend. You spend far too much time on the internet pontificating on your vast knowledge of all things MB and BMW.

threeMBs

+1 on all above.

thefisch

I agree. Given how many folks lease these cars, what motivation does a buyer have to get the same car after their 2-3 year lease is up if MB doesn't change the style or make upgrades.

K-A

No prob man! Yeah, the newest M5 is amazing, from what I gather from spending apparently too much time tinkering with the "BMW vs MB" thing, BMW's next step is to make the M5 much lighter since the newest iteration of the E63 really kind of set the mark for this generation when it comes to raw dynamics. What I do love from the M5 is that it's so luxurious and smooth along with being brutally fast, but I have a feeling BMW aren't happy that AMG basically made the newest E63 kind of like the bearer of how revered M5's used to be.

Just because the cars get discounted a ton doesn't make them a great value, that's the MB marketing machine at work right there that I was talking about. If you put a $60K MSRP on a car, but the market doesn't think the car is worth $60K, you'll see the car going for what the market deems a fair price, i.e (let's say, 'cause that's what mine was) $48K. By discounting so much, M-B turns their MSRP into a joke, when you're seeing 15-20% discounts on the regular.

The market dictates price, M-B "asks" MSRP, and the market will tell them "your cars aren't worth MSRP, we're not buying it", and M-B has a decision to either not sell as many cars but maintain a "dignity" of pushing to sell their cars at what they want to say it's worth, or slashing prices dramatically so they can appease shareholders and generate lower margins (but still make money) by generating high sales volumes.

Audi does the opposite of M-B. They set an MSRP and don't budge much from it, therefore they sell less cars on the U.S, but they rapidly build up a cachet, as an A6 will sell for much more than an E350, even though they have similar MSRP.

BMW do what M-B do, but not nearly as massively as M-B does it, you'll never get a 535i for 15-20-25% off year round (prices E350's have been and ARE attainable for, since it came out, constantly).

Simple market dynamics.

K-A

If the car is that good, it's "timeless", and people will want it because the manufacturer created something so supreme from the get-go that it can stand the test of time.

Don't let M-B's cheapening of their brand model make you think that dramatic about-face changes are necessary.

BMW's cars (the ones that aren't admitted failures) go a full generation "not messing with perfection" and are sales leaders their whole runs, THEN age gracefully after, not to mention owners of PRE-facelift cars are treated with dignity. M-B screwed over pre-facelift drivers who put faith in M-B to create something timeless, yet had their cars look like older generations after just a facelift.

Audi keeps their cars dignified and timeless without dramatic changes, Porsche's 911 is an icon that rarely needs any changing.

To create an icon, you need to treat your car like an icon. Look no further than Mercedes' past, they used to be the best at this.

So, this is a problem within MERCEDES now, just because Mercedes can't stand behind the original forms of their models, doesn't mean that this is how the automotive market is shifting. All their competitors treat their cars more respectfully and guarantee something that will remain relevant for the life of its model cycle, and always have strong demand.

This is why I don't think Mercedes deserves any passes today, as they make a mockery of their own brand. You guys can continue to let M-B do what they want and be in Starry bliss, but complaints generate action.

fintail

I am not sure how much water the "more cars on the ground" idea will hold in the future. In 'Murica, BMW now has the 1er (as with A/CLA, the good looking hatch doesn't come to this continent, we get the weird looking trunkback models - 1er is no more a beauty queen or high quality jewel than a CLA), 2er (kind of what a 3er used to be), 3er, 4er (odd proportions to my eyes), 5er (85% probably base 528i for the <$500 lease), 6er (only good as the GC, who buys the coupe?), 7er (light years away from the S), Z4, X1/3/5/6 and soon X7, and eventually a 9er to compete with highline S. Germans like niches, and MB isn't alone in trying to make a car for everyone. Both companies are wild successes at the moment.

At least MBs come with turn signals as standard equipment

Speaking of timeless, I am admiring W124 500E and Porsche 993 more than any new MB or BMW in my price range. I'm more than a year into the W212 now, and I think it's a fine car - my only gripes are the rear deck materials, dumb suspension tuning, and runflats. Otherwise, I find the aesthetics to be top notch and the powertrain likewise.

K-A

Indeed and agreed, those are very timeless beauties. The W212 suspension/chassis tuning is really, no hyperbole, one of the worst I've experienced in a modern car. I always said it was my worst favorite part about it even when I had mine and adored them (and I still adore the ones I had).

The BMW 1er absolutely is no beauty queen, the opposite, but it still lives up to BMW driving dynamics. It's a fabulous driving car, and proves that BMW still focuses on engineering merits, the 2 Series is even better. They showcase what BMW can do with a car in that price range. Importantly they're also RWD. The BMW i3 was one of the best cars I've driven, such fun. The CLA on the other hand showcases nothing, no engineering superiority from Mercedes whatsoever. It drives like "no big deal", in fact it's harsh, not dynamic, not too sporty, certainly not luxurious, it's a pure marketing schtick to uptick sales when Daimler has been getting tons of flack for losing so much share to competitors. It showcases that Mercedes can build a $30K car that drives like countless $20K cars, really, and wears generic FWD proportions (due to being a generic FWD).

This justifiably harsh review on the CLA sums it up:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/16/au...=pl-share&_r=0

Don't get me wrong, BMW is also making a joke of some model offerings via marketing. WTF is with their 4 GC/3GT/3 Sedan/3 Wagon all being basically the same car with in some cases, minute variations? The 4"GC" is a 3 Series GT with slight modifications, it's more a Hatchback or faux Wagon than a "Gran Coupe" like the stunning 6GC. So you basically have the 3 GT, 4 GC, and 3 Wagon as all different marketing variations of what should essentially be one car, or two at most. To make matters even more confusing, you have the X3/X1 models. BMW is creating all new badging for cars that have a 1" difference in roofline, thus confusing the consumer. Talk about dilution.

AudiA4Turbo22

That is the biggest load of bull**** I've ever heard.

I leased my 2006 ML500 and when the time was up in 2008 I wanted to lease an ML550, but since it looked IDENTICAL to mine and had ZERO changes, I decided to go with the GL450 instead. When my lease ended on my GL450 in 2010 it was POST FACELIFT by then, and I didn't feel enough of a change to lease another one so I got the newly facelifted S550 instead which I ended up buying since I only put 14k on it in 3 years. Technically, I continuously upgraded throughout the brand, however, I really just wanted an updated ML throughout my car changes, and as a result I ended up buying an 08 ML550 2 years ago to satisfy this desire.

People want change in their cars, I do not know anyone who gives up their lease and leases the same car once again, 90% of the time they change to another model whether within the brand or segment. You decided to get a 535i instead of another E-class probably because you were tired of owning the same model car for 9 years and felt the 535i has the sporting characteristics you desire. Mercedes NEVER marketed the E350 as a performance car, so you're realistically comparing apples to oranges. The E-class is made for old geezers like us that want some sportiness but LOTS of comfort. If we wanted all sportiness we would have bought RS4's or Corvettes or Cadillac CTS-V's, but we didn't. Every car satisfies a need for somebody and the E-class satisfies our needs, not yours clearly. So rather than spending your time worthlessly rambling on about how Mercedes gives huge discounts and needs facelifts to attract its customers, do something more productive. To be honest, the couple other cars I've purchased outside of Mercedes provided for bittersweet relationships during the purchase. I became accustomed to being able to negotiate so much off the price that when other companies wouldn't do the same I almost felt insulted. However, even if Mercedes wouldn't take A SINGLE DOLLAR off the price of my E-Class I would have NO PROBLEM paying FULL MSRP because I am THAT satisfied.

Clearly, the Mercedes system which you feel is "flawed" works for people like myself and it clearly doesn't for you. Mercedes-Benz is the oldest car company in the world and is one of the VERY FEW that has never seen a bankruptcy case, clearly they are doing something right. BMW charges some obscene premiums for their cars, a fully loaded 335i costs nearly as much as my fully loaded E550. I'm sorry, but no 335i is worth 70k, my E550 is ten times the value with features the 335 wishes it had at 72K. After all, BMW is the brand that won't even make Homelink standard on their cars, I have two relatives, one has a $58k 328i convertible(I helped her lease) and the other a 335i M-sport $62k(I helped him find) and NEITHER have Keyless entry/start OR Homelink or Harmon Kardon Logic 7 sound and the 335i doesn't even have Navigation for 62K. BMW should be reported to Rip off report. Most every E-class is delivered with navigation and HK sound with prices WELL BELOW 62k. Also keep in mind, a 3-series and E-class aren't even in the same class, but they really must be compared this way given they are priced the same. Don't even get me started on the Miles of black UGLY plastic on the dash boards of the BMW's, the lack of flare and the tiny digital displays on their stereos. 2001 called and they want their red monochrome radios back.

K-A

Firstly, saying people demand change or they'll flee is just modern-MB apologist talk. ALL winning and iconic cars are designed RIGHT from the get-go, and don't need any drastic changes. Cars that NEED drastic changes to stay relevant, are flawed cars.

M-B USED to have tons of retention with timeless cars, now they've lost control, and *NEED* to resort to dramatic changes. This is signs of a design team that is disoriented.

Yes, I realize the E Class is a more old-geezer intended car, but my biggest complaint with it is that it's quite noisy and harsh, yet floats like an old Cadillac at the same time! What's to love about that? It's one of the least dynamic cars in existence. The F10 is MORE comfortable! By a decent margin, has more luxury/creature comforts, standard leather (even free Nappa with a line, you can't even GET nappa in an E350), more tech than the E's "analogue", etc. It's much more factually solid and gets better safety scores. It has little details like a quiet-operating electronic moonroof cover as opposed to the E's clunky analogue thing (non pano). The F10 goes over bumps that made the E sound like it's about to fall apart, without a hitch, AND it can go attack corners (especially with M suspension) like no non-AMG E Class could dream of. On top of this all, you get larger 19" wheels, which still maintain its premium comfort and sporting capabilities.

The N55 is on another universe from the N/A V6, as is the ZF8 vs the 7G, so that goes without saying.

You talking about M-B's past accomplishments is entirely my point. That is the M-B that BUILT the brand, the one who DIDN'T have to do gimmicky designs that resulted in immediate reconstructive surgery to do away with said gimmicky features and introduce all new ones. I'm bothered by the fact that todays M-B is acting nothing like the M-B that built "M-B".

Re: 3 Series pricing, this is the point. The market will pay higher prices for BMW's, and BMW still sells more cars per portfolio number available (and much more worldwide). If the E sells for the same price as a 335i, then that tells you which car the market thinks is worth its asking price.

As for dash plastic, you surely haven't driven a modern BMW. The F10 has one of the softest, best dash plastics on the market. The W212 has the most atrocious, pre-facelift W204-esque, hard and "rubbery" feeling dash plastic that traps dust. The worst part of the W212 interior to me was always its hard dash. In fact, the whole interior is quite hard and non-coddling, while the F10 interior truly feels premium, soft-touch and cocoons you.

Look, I have no problem with anyone who loves their E, to each our own. Different tastes, etc. Sometimes we find an emotional connection with other cars, sometimes the insane deals they give us reason to choose them then convince ourselves that they're superior anyway, etc. Anything goes. But if we're talking cars and not getting offended by those who "don't like what we drive as much as something else", then I can't find barely any way where the W212 is even near equal with the F10, and the discounts the E Class needs to show the sales it does under the massive umbrella of "E" named cars further proves that, IMO.

If you love your E, that's great, it's a great car in many ways indeed. But IMO it's not on the level of this generations 5 Series, and I can go all day in objective and subjective proving that. That doesn't mean that the 5 Series is a better car for YOU, there are way too many variables when it comes to how cars speak to us personally.

Tjdehya

I will just leave this here http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-new...ngine-failures

thefisch

Makes me miss my old Hondas. Have owned 4 Hondas and their engines are bulletproof. Even their lawn mower engines are the best.

v12driven

I've been enjoying reading this thread for some time now and truly hope that it continues with gusto & fervor.

TJ's post evokes one word - ouch

PeterUbers

speaking of timeless -- the 2001-2005? (correct me k-a, please) M5's in good condition are actually going for the same price as MSRP back then or more? this is per my friend who's got a mint E46 M3 convertible that is a timeless design and drives amazingly well...

instantfob

K-A I've found your next car!
link here

Don't worry about the color.

K-A

Wow, that'd be something if they still commanded such a premium. Usually especially M and AMG (high performance) cars depreciate extra fold as they age and get out of warranty due to the high upkeep costs. If you can stomach those possibilities, you get a helluva bargain on an engineering and performance scale! Love the E46 M3's, definitely a quintessentially timeless car. Hopefully the new "M4" as it's called in BMW's funny marketing schtick fashion can do it some justice.

Hmm, $5K drive off, $1,500 a month.... not THAT expensive for what I think is one of the most desirable and hot cars in the world. Okay, if you insist.

.... and here I thought swinging a 640i GC "M Sport Edition" (my current top pick for next car, along with a Tesla, which isn't feasible due to me not having my own charge outlet at the moment) was stretching it too much already.

fintail

I don't know if it is fair to compare the just-because "i" series cars with the CLA, which to be fair, is more of a cynical marketing exercise aimed at North American tastes than it is anything else. Apples to oranges. The "i" cars exist because someone is having fun and wants a cool halo car to create attention, the CLA exists to make money. Both will serve their purpose. CLA isn't a cool halo and it probably cost relatively nothing to develop, I can't imagine how many "i" cars will have to be sold for that to run in the black. 1er might be RWD, but the trunkback models are unpretty, materials are nothing special, and it doesn't seem to be selling very well on this continent - it's a generic RWD. Driving dynamics are also a nice claim, but how much do they matter when so many 1/3/5 are sparsely optioned automatic lease specials?

E39 M5 has good resale - nice ones are still into the 20s, but that's not near original MSRP, which was probably in the 75K range. However, the Z8 can sell for roughly its original price. A really mint concours quality E30 M3 might hit original MSRP, too. Those cars tend to have operational turn signals more often than later models. I like the GC too, I see a white on white one in my area...a color combo that usually makes me think of 70s pimpmobiles, but I guess on a BMW that already has a somewhat ostentatious image, it works.

Regarding Hondas, just don't get an early 00s V6 model that hasn't had the transmission done - as there's a good chance you'll be doing it yourself. I know multiple people with Accord V6s and Odysseys who had that fun.


[QUOTE=K-A;6043588]Indeed and agreed, those are very timeless beauties. The W212 suspension/chassis tuning is really, no hyperbole, one of the worst I've experienced in a modern car. I always said it was my worst favorite part about it even when I had mine and adored them (and I still adore the ones I had).

Dema

Most people do not really care how car is handling, accelerated and all this stuff can be understandable just 1% of entire car owners population. Believe me, my 65 years old Chinese lady drives E550, but she never goes over 25. Be real, if you want to have business among driving enthusiast you will lose it. I do business among audiophile and I lose to any company making cheap $50 boombox. MB selected a way to address most of population who want luxury car and don't want to drive Camry. I do not know whom BWM sell their car, some bunch of idiots thinking they are king in driving? Ridiculous.