T.H.Carrera

Anyone here know the numbers or have a link to where these can be found?

According to a single youtube video that I found the 2014 e350 does 0to 60 in 5.9s.

roscoe108

All I've ever found for the 250 BlueTec is a single dyno from some guy in Europe who ran his C250 BT. No word if the car was AWD or not, but he logged 147 KW or 197 hp at the wheels. Torque was quoted at 600 nm, or 442 lb-ft at the wheels. Insert the usual caveats about dynos here.

Like many German automakers, the OM651 2.1-liter is probably quite underrated. I've got a GLK250 BT and when in Sport mode, it goes like stink. I've owned a couple of V8 cars in my life so I know what big torque feels like. Over 400 lb-ft sounds right to me, though 440 lb-ft at the wheels seems a bit doubtful. Maybe 440 at the crank, but not the wheels.

DerekACS

Euro version of C250BT has higher HP (204) rating than NA version (either 200, as in GLK250BT or 195 for E250BT).

roscoe108

Yes, but that's 204 PS (metric hp) which is still 200 or 201 hp. At any rate, 197 hp at the wheels still means roughly 230 hp at the crank for the 250 BT regardless. And torque must correspondingly be higher than 369 lb-ft too (my guess being at least 400 lb-ft).

J.M.G.

In Germany, dyno graphs do show numbers on the wheels but on the crank! So if you saw an graph showing 197 PS, than this was at the crank!

roscoe108

Definitely not crank. The only way that some random MB owner is going to get a crank figure is if he has the engine pulled out of his car, but who can afford that? Besides, he says his figures are in fact at the wheels.

If I could figure out how to post a URL properly on this forum, I would. But if you want to see the dyno results for yourself, go to eurostyle-tuningDOTcom and search for "Hello from matte black Benz owner." That will be the thread where he has his dyno graph picture showing 147 KW (or 197 hp). He mentions in a different forum that his torque reading was 600 nm, but without visual proof, I'm not buying that torque figure.

J.M.G.

This is just wrong, I'm afraid. In Germany - actually in all over Europe - we use a different method of measuring the engine power.


The first part is equal to what you guys in the US do. We "accelerate" on the dyno. The result is the so called wheel-power.


After that we press the clutch and measure how much resistance the drivetrain has! The result is the so called dissipation loss.


The sum of wheel power and dissipation loss is the so called engine power. That is, what the engine actually delivered at the measurement!


This figure is being corrected for environmental conditions by a special equation. The result is called norm power which is within ~1% of what you would see on an engine dyno in a climate-testing laboratory!



Nobody does this in Germany, sorry!



Just take a look in the file I attached at the bottom. This is a graph that I found in the net! It shows a 250 CDI from France:


P_roda = Wheel Power = 158.4 PS = 156 hp
P_reboque = dissipation loss = 46.9 PS = 46 hp
P_Mot = Engine Power = 205.3 PS = 203 hp
P_Norm = Norm Power = 208 PS = 205 hp


Torque = 461 Nm = 338 ft/lb

roscoe108

I didn't say he was from Germany. In fact, the guy is from the UK. Last I heard, their approach to dyno usage is the same as in NA, as their are no correction figures quoted in the graph at all (attached).

I'm not going to argue with how you do things in Germany, or France for that matter. I'm simply reporting what I've come across for 250 BT dynos, as per the original post. When I get my own dyno done in a month or two, I will post it here and you will see probably close to the same.

J.M.G.

Try this link please:


http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/dynotesting.htm

roscoe108

Your posted article is simply about corrections for atmospheric conditions. That has nothing to do with corrections for parasitic drivetrain loss, which you are saying your German dynos do. I'm not disputing what German dynos do, but the graph I posted says nothing about corrections for parasitic loss, only atmospheric corrections (which is normal for any dyno anywhere).

And did you read the final few paragraphs even? This is exactly what I'm talking about.
And even more important is the final line of their article:
What does that tell you???

J.M.G.

No Sir. You did not read the article carefully enough.


Please study the article below the headline:




You can see two graphs there. On of the engine dyno and on the rolling road. Both show identical results; therefore those graphs from the UK are also engine power, not wheel power!


BTW: The 250 CDI is not able to make more than 210 hp (crank) with those new magnet solenoids without scarifying durability.
.

roscoe108

For which they pulled the engine out of the car for the one test, but now are saying crank for the rolling dyno? All this, after their final statement of "we only quote power at the wheels" for automatics, which the C250 BT I saw tested, was. With no correction factors applied except atmospheric. Major contradictions with citing JKM, who can't seem to make up their own minds about their testing methodology.

Whatever dude. I'm done arguing. I don't even want to hear about your source of information about limitations caused by solenoids. See you on the roads.

J.M.G.

As you do not want to post here anymore, I am going to address this post to the rest. I attached another dyno graph of an 250 CDI below. The car pulled:


Wheel-Power: 121kW = 162 hp
dissipation-loss: 22kW = 30 hp
Engine-Power: 144kW = 193 hp


The 250 CDI was introduced to the German market in 2008. Mercedes did also announce a 245 PS version (~242 hp). Since day one, the engine had a lot of trouble due to faulty injectors. Those troubles were that bad, that Mercedes decided to replace all (French) Delphie Piezo-injectors with Magneto-injectors starting in 2011 (older vehicles were adressed by a recall). As a result, the injector problems were gone. On the other hand, the 250 CDI did lack some power from that point in the higher rpm-band. So Mercedes also had to cancel the 242hp version. We have in our German Forum approximately 20 graphs of 250 CDIs and none of them exceeds factory claim (with magneto injectors). Most are in the 150-170 hp range (wheel power).

I also have driven a few 250 CDI on the Autobahn. None of them topped out in excess of 240km/h - and if a car would develop 200++ hp at the wheels, it would easily be good for 156++ mph!

DerekACS

J.M.G. :

I am well aware of the history and injector problems with the OMD 651 engine. MB changed the injectors to Bosch piezo-electric for the North American version.

Are you familiar with any dyno tests done for the OMD 642 (3.0L V6 turbo diesel) ? The version we have in North America for the E350BT is rated @ 210hp and 400 ft.lbs torque.
From what information I have been able to gather, the V6 seems to have been a much more trouble free engine. Maybe my impression is inaccurate or not ?

cheers !
Derek

J.M.G.

Unfortunatly I am not sure, which engine is being used for the US market. In Germany, the OM 642 has been replaced by the OM 642 LS with 265 PS (later reduced to 252 PS).


Never the less: Both OMs (642 and 642 LS) do not attract to much attention in the Trouble-shooting forums. This might be due to the fact, that this engine is not as widespread as the 4-banger Diesel. Pleace keep in mind, that 200 / 220 / 250 CDI are very, very common over here. And we have more than just a few cars here with 200.000++ miles. Taxis, for example.


It is very embarrassing to state, that the OM 651 has apparently many weak points. A lot of Taxi-Drivers had their engines replaced - something that nearly never happened with the older engines! The injector-problems were already attract in this thread. Actually, there are quite a few more problems...the drive chain for example...


But I tend to agree with you: The OM 642 / 642 LS are pretty unobtrusive.

DerekACS

The OMD 642 has also been used in many Euro taxis. I have ridden in several E Class taxis with this engine and with over 300,000 km. These cars are remarkably robust !!

roscoe108

And according to your 'graph' - even with correction factors - the OM651 is actually making less power and torque at the crank than Mercedes is claiming. Well thank you for that insight. I guess we can all launch a class-action lawsuit against Mercedes for false advertising.

Or do I believe Mercedes over you? Think I'm going with Mercedes.

roscoe108

Here's one for the E350 Bluetec. Horsepower only, mind you and AT THE WHEELS: http://burgertuning.com/Mercedes_JBD...nce_tuner.html

J.M.G.

Several customers have been there and done that. They sued the manufacturer over here in Germany, when their cars did not pull the advertised numbers.


In Germany hp claims are being done in EWG-Conditions. That means: Every manufacturer has to make sure that a test engine pulls the published numbers in exactly those environmental conditions with specific oils etc. Also EWG guideline demands, that every production engine is within 5 percent (!!!) of this test engine regarding power delivery and fuel consumption.


So every customer, whose engine is within 5% of the factory numbers does not have a case over here. I am not sure, how it is handled in the US. I believe, that you guys use SAE for those figures. I am not aware, if SAE includes regulations like mentioned above.


Side note: There have been more than a few verdicts, that forced companies like Audi or Mercedes to replace engines or to buy back cars due to falling short of power claims or fuel consumption figures. A very popular example over here has been the Audi RS4 engine (RS4 B7 with the 4.2 V8 and 420 PS). This engine lacked more than once the advertised power and sometimes only showed 360 instead of 420 PS!


So a last note on the 250 Diesel. Manufacturer claim is 204 PS (150 kW) over here. So everything down to 194 PS would be perfectly alright (as would be 214 PS. Every figure exceeding this limits would give the customer a case.

roscoe108

So why is it that so many German cars are underrated by up to 20% or even more? The N54 and N55 engines from BMW and the 3.0T supercharged V6 from Audi just to name a few. Forced induction motors are often underrated compared to naturally aspirated engines. This is widely known. The way you're talking makes it sounds as though every German car maker is lying through their teeth about power outputs, and I'm sorry, I just don't believe because of all the evidence to the contrary.

Trancebolt

It is true that these cases have happened many times in Germany. Not to say it doesnt happen with other car manufacturers too; American/Japanese Im sure are the same way. Possibly American engines when dynoed hit the mark more likely since its our conditions/weather/gas? So the test is closer to our actual running environment maybe?
I dont know... Truly though, any car not maintained properly will begin to lose efficiency and dyno lower and lower as the years go by

Munich77

I always wondered about that too - my theory is that they underrate them so that customers in countries where it is extremely hot will not complain about the lower power output.