Any Dyno numbers for E250 bluetec and e350?
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2012 w221
Any Dyno numbers for E250 bluetec and e350?
Anyone here know the numbers or have a link to where these can be found?
According to a single youtube video that I found the 2014 e350 does 0to 60 in 5.9s.
According to a single youtube video that I found the 2014 e350 does 0to 60 in 5.9s.
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GLK250
Like many German automakers, the OM651 2.1-liter is probably quite underrated. I've got a GLK250 BT and when in Sport mode, it goes like stink. I've owned a couple of V8 cars in my life so I know what big torque feels like. Over 400 lb-ft sounds right to me, though 440 lb-ft at the wheels seems a bit doubtful. Maybe 440 at the crank, but not the wheels.
Last edited by roscoe108; Feb 13, 2014 at 11:13 AM.
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2015 E250 BT 4M
All I've ever found for the 250 BlueTec is a single dyno from some guy in Europe who ran his C250 BT. No word if the car was AWD or not, but he logged 147 KW or 197 hp at the wheels. Torque was quoted at 600 nm, or 442 lb-ft at the wheels. Insert the usual caveats about dynos here.
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GLK250
Yes, but that's 204 PS (metric hp) which is still 200 or 201 hp. At any rate, 197 hp at the wheels still means roughly 230 hp at the crank for the 250 BT regardless. And torque must correspondingly be higher than 369 lb-ft too (my guess being at least 400 lb-ft).
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GLK250
Definitely not crank. The only way that some random MB owner is going to get a crank figure is if he has the engine pulled out of his car, but who can afford that? Besides, he says his figures are in fact at the wheels.
If I could figure out how to post a URL properly on this forum, I would. But if you want to see the dyno results for yourself, go to eurostyle-tuningDOTcom and search for "Hello from matte black Benz owner." That will be the thread where he has his dyno graph picture showing 147 KW (or 197 hp). He mentions in a different forum that his torque reading was 600 nm, but without visual proof, I'm not buying that torque figure.
If I could figure out how to post a URL properly on this forum, I would. But if you want to see the dyno results for yourself, go to eurostyle-tuningDOTcom and search for "Hello from matte black Benz owner." That will be the thread where he has his dyno graph picture showing 147 KW (or 197 hp). He mentions in a different forum that his torque reading was 600 nm, but without visual proof, I'm not buying that torque figure.
Last edited by roscoe108; Feb 13, 2014 at 02:19 PM.
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'17 C63S Estate (S205) / '14 CLS 550 SB (X218) / '17 E220d (S213)
This is just wrong, I'm afraid. In Germany - actually in all over Europe - we use a different method of measuring the engine power.
The first part is equal to what you guys in the US do. We "accelerate" on the dyno. The result is the so called wheel-power.
After that we press the clutch and measure how much resistance the drivetrain has! The result is the so called dissipation loss.
The sum of wheel power and dissipation loss is the so called engine power. That is, what the engine actually delivered at the measurement!
This figure is being corrected for environmental conditions by a special equation. The result is called norm power which is within ~1% of what you would see on an engine dyno in a climate-testing laboratory!
Besides, he says his figures are in fact at the wheels.
Nobody does this in Germany, sorry!
Just take a look in the file I attached at the bottom. This is a graph that I found in the net! It shows a 250 CDI from France:
P_roda = Wheel Power = 158.4 PS = 156 hp
P_reboque = dissipation loss = 46.9 PS = 46 hp
P_Mot = Engine Power = 205.3 PS = 203 hp
P_Norm = Norm Power = 208 PS = 205 hp
Torque = 461 Nm = 338 ft/lb
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GLK250
I didn't say he was from Germany. In fact, the guy is from the UK. Last I heard, their approach to dyno usage is the same as in NA, as their are no correction figures quoted in the graph at all (attached).
I'm not going to argue with how you do things in Germany, or France for that matter. I'm simply reporting what I've come across for 250 BT dynos, as per the original post. When I get my own dyno done in a month or two, I will post it here and you will see probably close to the same.
I'm not going to argue with how you do things in Germany, or France for that matter. I'm simply reporting what I've come across for 250 BT dynos, as per the original post. When I get my own dyno done in a month or two, I will post it here and you will see probably close to the same.
Last edited by roscoe108; Feb 13, 2014 at 03:18 PM.
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'17 C63S Estate (S205) / '14 CLS 550 SB (X218) / '17 E220d (S213)
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GLK250
Your posted article is simply about corrections for atmospheric conditions. That has nothing to do with corrections for parasitic drivetrain loss, which you are saying your German dynos do. I'm not disputing what German dynos do, but the graph I posted says nothing about corrections for parasitic loss, only atmospheric corrections (which is normal for any dyno anywhere).
And did you read the final few paragraphs even? This is exactly what I'm talking about.
And did you read the final few paragraphs even? This is exactly what I'm talking about.
Do not confuse Atmospheric correction with transmission loss calculations (Power loss from flywheel to the actual tyre contact patch of the wheel) for which each rolling road manufacture evaluates and calculates themselves.
There are no Standardised ISO, DIN or equivalent corrections in use to calculate transmission losses. Some dyno manufactures evaluate this more accurately than others; again expect variations from one dyno manufacture to the next, where again operators can either introduce an error or influence the result……
As our dyno is only 2 wheel drive we can only comment on 2 wheel drive vehicles but our own estimated transmission losses for a Front wheel drive vehicle on a conventional gearbox or VAG DSG gearbox is between 15-16% and rear wheel drive cars loose between 17%-18% - again on conventional manual gearboxes.
And even more important is the final line of their article:There are no Standardised ISO, DIN or equivalent corrections in use to calculate transmission losses. Some dyno manufactures evaluate this more accurately than others; again expect variations from one dyno manufacture to the next, where again operators can either introduce an error or influence the result……
As our dyno is only 2 wheel drive we can only comment on 2 wheel drive vehicles but our own estimated transmission losses for a Front wheel drive vehicle on a conventional gearbox or VAG DSG gearbox is between 15-16% and rear wheel drive cars loose between 17%-18% - again on conventional manual gearboxes.
For reasons of accuracy JKM will only ever state the power at the wheels on torque converter equipped automatic gearbox vehicles.
What does that tell you???
Last edited by roscoe108; Feb 13, 2014 at 03:46 PM.
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'17 C63S Estate (S205) / '14 CLS 550 SB (X218) / '17 E220d (S213)
No Sir. You did not read the article carefully enough.
Please study the article below the headline:
So how Accurate is the Dyno Dynamics Shootout Mode?
JKM are in the fortunate position of having had a customer’s 500BHP 2.0 Turbocharged (Ford YB) engine tested on both an engine dynamometer (Superflow) and then again on the JKM Dyno Dynamics rolling road.
JKM are in the fortunate position of having had a customer’s 500BHP 2.0 Turbocharged (Ford YB) engine tested on both an engine dynamometer (Superflow) and then again on the JKM Dyno Dynamics rolling road.
You can see two graphs there. On of the engine dyno and on the rolling road. Both show identical results; therefore those graphs from the UK are also engine power, not wheel power!
BTW: The 250 CDI is not able to make more than 210 hp (crank) with those new magnet solenoids without scarifying durability.
.
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GLK250
For which they pulled the engine out of the car for the one test, but now are saying crank for the rolling dyno? All this, after their final statement of "we only quote power at the wheels" for automatics, which the C250 BT I saw tested, was. With no correction factors applied except atmospheric. Major contradictions with citing JKM, who can't seem to make up their own minds about their testing methodology.
Whatever dude. I'm done arguing. I don't even want to hear about your source of information about limitations caused by solenoids. See you on the roads.
Whatever dude. I'm done arguing. I don't even want to hear about your source of information about limitations caused by solenoids. See you on the roads.
Last edited by roscoe108; Feb 13, 2014 at 04:33 PM.
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'17 C63S Estate (S205) / '14 CLS 550 SB (X218) / '17 E220d (S213)
As you do not want to post here anymore, I am going to address this post to the rest. I attached another dyno graph of an 250 CDI below. The car pulled:
Wheel-Power: 121kW = 162 hp
dissipation-loss: 22kW = 30 hp
Engine-Power: 144kW = 193 hp
The 250 CDI was introduced to the German market in 2008. Mercedes did also announce a 245 PS version (~242 hp). Since day one, the engine had a lot of trouble due to faulty injectors. Those troubles were that bad, that Mercedes decided to replace all (French) Delphie Piezo-injectors with Magneto-injectors starting in 2011 (older vehicles were adressed by a recall). As a result, the injector problems were gone. On the other hand, the 250 CDI did lack some power from that point in the higher rpm-band. So Mercedes also had to cancel the 242hp version. We have in our German Forum approximately 20 graphs of 250 CDIs and none of them exceeds factory claim (with magneto injectors). Most are in the 150-170 hp range (wheel power).
I also have driven a few 250 CDI on the Autobahn. None of them topped out in excess of 240km/h - and if a car would develop 200++ hp at the wheels, it would easily be good for 156++ mph!
Wheel-Power: 121kW = 162 hp
dissipation-loss: 22kW = 30 hp
Engine-Power: 144kW = 193 hp
The 250 CDI was introduced to the German market in 2008. Mercedes did also announce a 245 PS version (~242 hp). Since day one, the engine had a lot of trouble due to faulty injectors. Those troubles were that bad, that Mercedes decided to replace all (French) Delphie Piezo-injectors with Magneto-injectors starting in 2011 (older vehicles were adressed by a recall). As a result, the injector problems were gone. On the other hand, the 250 CDI did lack some power from that point in the higher rpm-band. So Mercedes also had to cancel the 242hp version. We have in our German Forum approximately 20 graphs of 250 CDIs and none of them exceeds factory claim (with magneto injectors). Most are in the 150-170 hp range (wheel power).
I also have driven a few 250 CDI on the Autobahn. None of them topped out in excess of 240km/h - and if a car would develop 200++ hp at the wheels, it would easily be good for 156++ mph!
Last edited by J.M.G.; Feb 14, 2014 at 06:53 AM.
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2015 E250 BT 4M
The 250 CDI was introduced to the German market in 2008. Mercedes did also announce a 245 PS version (~242 hp). Since day one, the engine had a lot of trouble due to faulty injectors. Those troubles were that bad, that Mercedes decided to replace all (French) Delphie Piezo-injectors with Magneto-injectors starting in 2011 (older vehicles were adressed by a recall). As a result, the injector problems were gone. On the other hand, the 250 CDI did lack some power from that point in the higher rpm-band. So Mercedes also had to cancel the 242hp version. We have in our German Forum approximately 20 graphs of 250 CDIs and none of them exceeds factory claim (with magneto injectors). Most are in the 150-170 hp range (wheel power).
I am well aware of the history and injector problems with the OMD 651 engine. MB changed the injectors to Bosch piezo-electric for the North American version.
Are you familiar with any dyno tests done for the OMD 642 (3.0L V6 turbo diesel) ? The version we have in North America for the E350BT is rated @ 210hp and 400 ft.lbs torque.
From what information I have been able to gather, the V6 seems to have been a much more trouble free engine. Maybe my impression is inaccurate or not ?
cheers !
Derek
Last edited by DerekACS; Feb 14, 2014 at 11:10 PM.
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'17 C63S Estate (S205) / '14 CLS 550 SB (X218) / '17 E220d (S213)
Unfortunatly I am not sure, which engine is being used for the US market. In Germany, the OM 642 has been replaced by the OM 642 LS with 265 PS (later reduced to 252 PS).
Never the less: Both OMs (642 and 642 LS) do not attract to much attention in the Trouble-shooting forums. This might be due to the fact, that this engine is not as widespread as the 4-banger Diesel. Pleace keep in mind, that 200 / 220 / 250 CDI are very, very common over here. And we have more than just a few cars here with 200.000++ miles. Taxis, for example.
It is very embarrassing to state, that the OM 651 has apparently many weak points. A lot of Taxi-Drivers had their engines replaced - something that nearly never happened with the older engines! The injector-problems were already attract in this thread. Actually, there are quite a few more problems...the drive chain for example...
But I tend to agree with you: The OM 642 / 642 LS are pretty unobtrusive.
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2015 E250 BT 4M
Unfortunatly I am not sure, which engine is being used for the US market. In Germany, the OM 642 has been replaced by the OM 642 LS with 265 PS (later reduced to 252 PS).
Never the less: Both OMs (642 and 642 LS) do not attract to much attention in the Trouble-shooting forums. This might be due to the fact, that this engine is not as widespread as the 4-banger Diesel. Pleace keep in mind, that 200 / 220 / 250 CDI are very, very common over here. And we have more than just a few cars here with 200.000++ miles. Taxis, for example.
Never the less: Both OMs (642 and 642 LS) do not attract to much attention in the Trouble-shooting forums. This might be due to the fact, that this engine is not as widespread as the 4-banger Diesel. Pleace keep in mind, that 200 / 220 / 250 CDI are very, very common over here. And we have more than just a few cars here with 200.000++ miles. Taxis, for example.
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GLK250
As you do not want to post here anymore, I am going to address this post to the rest. I attached another dyno graph of an 250 CDI below. The car pulled:
Wheel-Power: 121kW = 162 hp
dissipation-loss: 22kW = 30 hp
Engine-Power: 144kW = 193 hp
The 250 CDI was introduced to the German market in 2008. Mercedes did also announce a 245 PS version (~242 hp). Since day one, the engine had a lot of trouble due to faulty injectors. Those troubles were that bad, that Mercedes decided to replace all (French) Delphie Piezo-injectors with Magneto-injectors starting in 2011 (older vehicles were adressed by a recall). As a result, the injector problems were gone. On the other hand, the 250 CDI did lack some power from that point in the higher rpm-band. So Mercedes also had to cancel the 242hp version. We have in our German Forum approximately 20 graphs of 250 CDIs and none of them exceeds factory claim (with magneto injectors). Most are in the 150-170 hp range (wheel power).
I also have driven a few 250 CDI on the Autobahn. None of them topped out in excess of 240km/h - and if a car would develop 200++ hp at the wheels, it would easily be good for 156++ mph!
Wheel-Power: 121kW = 162 hp
dissipation-loss: 22kW = 30 hp
Engine-Power: 144kW = 193 hp
The 250 CDI was introduced to the German market in 2008. Mercedes did also announce a 245 PS version (~242 hp). Since day one, the engine had a lot of trouble due to faulty injectors. Those troubles were that bad, that Mercedes decided to replace all (French) Delphie Piezo-injectors with Magneto-injectors starting in 2011 (older vehicles were adressed by a recall). As a result, the injector problems were gone. On the other hand, the 250 CDI did lack some power from that point in the higher rpm-band. So Mercedes also had to cancel the 242hp version. We have in our German Forum approximately 20 graphs of 250 CDIs and none of them exceeds factory claim (with magneto injectors). Most are in the 150-170 hp range (wheel power).
I also have driven a few 250 CDI on the Autobahn. None of them topped out in excess of 240km/h - and if a car would develop 200++ hp at the wheels, it would easily be good for 156++ mph!
Or do I believe Mercedes over you? Think I'm going with Mercedes.
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GLK250
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'17 C63S Estate (S205) / '14 CLS 550 SB (X218) / '17 E220d (S213)
Several customers have been there and done that. They sued the manufacturer over here in Germany, when their cars did not pull the advertised numbers.
In Germany hp claims are being done in EWG-Conditions. That means: Every manufacturer has to make sure that a test engine pulls the published numbers in exactly those environmental conditions with specific oils etc. Also EWG guideline demands, that every production engine is within 5 percent (!!!) of this test engine regarding power delivery and fuel consumption.
So every customer, whose engine is within 5% of the factory numbers does not have a case over here. I am not sure, how it is handled in the US. I believe, that you guys use SAE for those figures. I am not aware, if SAE includes regulations like mentioned above.
Side note: There have been more than a few verdicts, that forced companies like Audi or Mercedes to replace engines or to buy back cars due to falling short of power claims or fuel consumption figures. A very popular example over here has been the Audi RS4 engine (RS4 B7 with the 4.2 V8 and 420 PS). This engine lacked more than once the advertised power and sometimes only showed 360 instead of 420 PS!
So a last note on the 250 Diesel. Manufacturer claim is 204 PS (150 kW) over here. So everything down to 194 PS would be perfectly alright (as would be 214 PS. Every figure exceeding this limits would give the customer a case.
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GLK250
So why is it that so many German cars are underrated by up to 20% or even more? The N54 and N55 engines from BMW and the 3.0T supercharged V6 from Audi just to name a few. Forced induction motors are often underrated compared to naturally aspirated engines. This is widely known. The way you're talking makes it sounds as though every German car maker is lying through their teeth about power outputs, and I'm sorry, I just don't believe because of all the evidence to the contrary.
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w212 E350 Bluetec & Mk7 GTI Sport
It is true that these cases have happened many times in Germany. Not to say it doesnt happen with other car manufacturers too; American/Japanese Im sure are the same way. Possibly American engines when dynoed hit the mark more likely since its our conditions/weather/gas? So the test is closer to our actual running environment maybe?
I dont know... Truly though, any car not maintained properly will begin to lose efficiency and dyno lower and lower as the years go by
I dont know... Truly though, any car not maintained properly will begin to lose efficiency and dyno lower and lower as the years go by
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So why is it that so many German cars are underrated by up to 20% or even more? The N54 and N55 engines from BMW and the 3.0T supercharged V6 from Audi just to name a few. Forced induction motors are often underrated compared to naturally aspirated engines. This is widely known. The way you're talking makes it sounds as though every German car maker is lying through their teeth about power outputs, and I'm sorry, I just don't believe because of all the evidence to the contrary.
