US M-B marketing
11-14-2014 | 10:26 AM
#26
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...24 GLE53
A bad design is a bad design, period. Plopping a faux Tablet onto a dash that doesn't appear designed for it is simply crude design. Guaranteed that cars today with that haphazard setup will look immensely dated in the future when they re-integrate them in a more proper way.
Oh, wise one, wow, thank you for that insight. Where'd you read that; M-B's press release? Your obsessive classy responses to my posts always bring about the utmost respect to you. You truly act over twice my age, bravo.
Cheesy and over saturated marketing along with cheesy and over saturated products (CLA, GLA) not only hamper a brands image, but it bring margins down along with the average price of transaction. Yes, M-B will garner younger shoppers, but not so much in the aspirational way they once did, until it eventually becomes a brand known for predominantly $30-ishK FWD cars and a few low volume upper market cars. Like Toyota/Lexus. This sort of approach would never have gotten M-B to the place they are today, which they did with a high margin, non-saturated, focused lineup. Brand management 101. M-B will increase volume and sales, yet will eventually start seeing diminished margins and diminished cachet. Which has already started. Expensive M-B's are selling less and less, while the increasing downmarket offerings are taking up the brunt of the brands volume. Already M-B has seen their initial quality ratings drop drastically with their lineup balance catering more downmarket.
IMO, this tactic isn't very smart because while M-B becomes more accessible to "younger shoppers" (marketing code word for "lower income") they lose the aspirational value and prestige factor, especially when those downmarket models look exactly like the upmarket ones (and when the high MSRP cars get discounted drastically as well), and share tons of parts, etc. (as they already do). So if those buyers start making more money and want to buy a "I made it" car (which M-B namely used to exemplify to the highest degree), they might be inclined to go to the new school of concise/focused yet slightly attainable prestige, i.e brands that have a higher entry price and a higher average transaction price and a higher enthusiast factor. Enter Porsche, maybe Maserati if they can get their quality together, Range Rover though they're only limited to SUV's, Audi though they have some "attainable" MSRP's, they don't discount much and don't culture a "lease then toss" approach which is apparently why they apparently have a pool of buyers who are wealthier than M-B or BMW buyers today, etc.
It's not just M-B, it's BMW as well. But BMW has always been bought more for its drive and engineering I feel, hence how the brands flagship is the 3 Series. M-B has always rode strongly on its badge and cachet/prestige factor, the very thing that makes especially longstanding nostalgic veterans of the brands presence like you wax fluffy words about what the corporate Star badge on the front of your cars means to you. Therefore I think they're making the biggest mistake by losing focus and spreading their lineup so wide and imo in-elegantly.
Oh, wise one, wow, thank you for that insight. Where'd you read that; M-B's press release? Your obsessive classy responses to my posts always bring about the utmost respect to you. You truly act over twice my age, bravo.
Cheesy and over saturated marketing along with cheesy and over saturated products (CLA, GLA) not only hamper a brands image, but it bring margins down along with the average price of transaction. Yes, M-B will garner younger shoppers, but not so much in the aspirational way they once did, until it eventually becomes a brand known for predominantly $30-ishK FWD cars and a few low volume upper market cars. Like Toyota/Lexus. This sort of approach would never have gotten M-B to the place they are today, which they did with a high margin, non-saturated, focused lineup. Brand management 101. M-B will increase volume and sales, yet will eventually start seeing diminished margins and diminished cachet. Which has already started. Expensive M-B's are selling less and less, while the increasing downmarket offerings are taking up the brunt of the brands volume. Already M-B has seen their initial quality ratings drop drastically with their lineup balance catering more downmarket.
IMO, this tactic isn't very smart because while M-B becomes more accessible to "younger shoppers" (marketing code word for "lower income") they lose the aspirational value and prestige factor, especially when those downmarket models look exactly like the upmarket ones (and when the high MSRP cars get discounted drastically as well), and share tons of parts, etc. (as they already do). So if those buyers start making more money and want to buy a "I made it" car (which M-B namely used to exemplify to the highest degree), they might be inclined to go to the new school of concise/focused yet slightly attainable prestige, i.e brands that have a higher entry price and a higher average transaction price and a higher enthusiast factor. Enter Porsche, maybe Maserati if they can get their quality together, Range Rover though they're only limited to SUV's, Audi though they have some "attainable" MSRP's, they don't discount much and don't culture a "lease then toss" approach which is apparently why they apparently have a pool of buyers who are wealthier than M-B or BMW buyers today, etc.
It's not just M-B, it's BMW as well. But BMW has always been bought more for its drive and engineering I feel, hence how the brands flagship is the 3 Series. M-B has always rode strongly on its badge and cachet/prestige factor, the very thing that makes especially longstanding nostalgic veterans of the brands presence like you wax fluffy words about what the corporate Star badge on the front of your cars means to you. Therefore I think they're making the biggest mistake by losing focus and spreading their lineup so wide and imo in-elegantly.
11-14-2014 | 10:39 AM
#27
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Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
And BMW is doing it exactly as it should be done, with the 3. Making one product that M-B seemingly needs a couple of, to combat. Thus, BMW saves from over-saturation, maintains an image, and shows product prowess by how dynamic just one 3 Series can be. That said, unfortunately BMW is losing that as well as they're releasing so many pointless vehicles based on the 3 that are more dilution than anything.
And M-B SHOULD be highest selling as they're chasing downmarket the furthest. They have the only FWD compact-economy models out of the two, and the CLS and under segments all seem to be drastically more discounted than their BMW rivals. Frankly, M-B trying so desperately hard to attain volume sales means that being anything less than highest seller, ESPECIALLY considering they have the largest lineup out of their competitors, means they're simply not doing something right.
And the whole purpose of this debate is that higher sales in the way M-B are trying to attain them are exactly what can and are very well hampering the whole reason M-B is aspirational to begin with. Being the highest volume seller when you were once a brand known for a concise and focused lineup with no compromises, by way of heavy discount-brand like fire-sales, over-saturated mass-consumerism style marketing and a chase to lower namely FWD segments, is absolutely nothing to brag about. Toyota guys will always win that argument, if we're going there.
BMW has the same issue, but again, I feel that M-B has always had a higher prestige therefore their actions are IMO more unbecoming in the chase downwards for volume.
11-14-2014 | 04:15 PM
#29
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From: Ontario,Canada
...24 GLE53
Actually I believe BMW is highest selling in N.A, maybe counting commercial vehicles M-B is, but I saw numbers suggesting otherwise.
And BMW is doing it exactly as it should be done, with the 3. Making one product that M-B seemingly needs a couple of, to combat. Thus, BMW saves from over-saturation, maintains an image, and shows product prowess by how dynamic just one 3 Series can be. That said, unfortunately BMW is losing that as well as they're releasing so many pointless vehicles based on the 3 that are more dilution than anything.
And M-B SHOULD be highest selling as they're chasing downmarket the furthest. They have the only FWD compact-economy models out of the two, and the CLS and under segments all seem to be drastically more discounted than their BMW rivals. Frankly, M-B trying so desperately hard to attain volume sales means that being anything less than highest seller, ESPECIALLY considering they have the largest lineup out of their competitors, means they're simply not doing something right.
And the whole purpose of this debate is that higher sales in the way M-B are trying to attain them are exactly what can and are very well hampering the whole reason M-B is aspirational to begin with. Being the highest volume seller when you were once a brand known for a concise and focused lineup with no compromises, by way of heavy discount-brand like fire-sales, over-saturated mass-consumerism style marketing and a chase to lower namely FWD segments, is absolutely nothing to brag about. Toyota guys will always win that argument, if we're going there.
BMW has the same issue, but again, I feel that M-B has always had a higher prestige therefore their actions are IMO more unbecoming in the chase downwards for volume.
And BMW is doing it exactly as it should be done, with the 3. Making one product that M-B seemingly needs a couple of, to combat. Thus, BMW saves from over-saturation, maintains an image, and shows product prowess by how dynamic just one 3 Series can be. That said, unfortunately BMW is losing that as well as they're releasing so many pointless vehicles based on the 3 that are more dilution than anything.
And M-B SHOULD be highest selling as they're chasing downmarket the furthest. They have the only FWD compact-economy models out of the two, and the CLS and under segments all seem to be drastically more discounted than their BMW rivals. Frankly, M-B trying so desperately hard to attain volume sales means that being anything less than highest seller, ESPECIALLY considering they have the largest lineup out of their competitors, means they're simply not doing something right.
And the whole purpose of this debate is that higher sales in the way M-B are trying to attain them are exactly what can and are very well hampering the whole reason M-B is aspirational to begin with. Being the highest volume seller when you were once a brand known for a concise and focused lineup with no compromises, by way of heavy discount-brand like fire-sales, over-saturated mass-consumerism style marketing and a chase to lower namely FWD segments, is absolutely nothing to brag about. Toyota guys will always win that argument, if we're going there.
BMW has the same issue, but again, I feel that M-B has always had a higher prestige therefore their actions are IMO more unbecoming in the chase downwards for volume.
K-A you can try to make up all the excuses you want but they are number two and have been for some time.
So K-A now that we know you are full of cr##p, why don't you go waste your time with your little buds on the BMW forum. Most people here bought a Benz because they preferred the car.
There is nothing wrong with a BMW (I have owned four) but as we all know it's simply not a Mercedes.
11-14-2014 | 05:08 PM
#32
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2010 E350 Luxury Sedan, Engine 272 (V6)
Not necessarily
Not scientific, but from my observations, BMW is selling a lot of small and mid-sized SUV's. Of course, I live within 50 miles of where they are made so maybe that helps local sales. Also, they have introduced the 1 and 2 series to beef up lower priced sales.
As for prestige, people in America have purchased MB more for that reason than any other. The safety, durability, reliability, etc. have always been rationalizations to justify the purchase. As for removing the badges, star, etc., it can be done-just check out some to the posts here and on other forums.
Regardless, the vast majority of people in America who purchase MB, Lexus, BMW, and even Audi, Cadillac, Acura and Infiniti do so for the perceived prestige of the make moreso than any other factor.
Last edited by El Cid; 11-14-2014 at 05:18 PM.
11-14-2014 | 08:28 PM
#33
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Joined: Mar 2014
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2010 HARLEY FLHTK, 2013 SL550, 2014 S63
Have to disagree. The Tesla is worst of all. Might as well just take a 28" HD TV and stick it sideways on the console.
BTW, I have a new vehicle with touch screen control for nav. and audio. Within a couple of weeks had greasy fingerprints all over the screen. Wish it had buttons or a big wheel like COMAND.
BTW, I have a new vehicle with touch screen control for nav. and audio. Within a couple of weeks had greasy fingerprints all over the screen. Wish it had buttons or a big wheel like COMAND.
11-14-2014 | 08:45 PM
#34
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Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
On the flip side, you're getting incredible vehicles for bargain prices. The functional consumer side of course gets benefited.
Strip an M-B of its badge, and call it a Toyota, you think they'd still sell for the same price? For that matter, call a Mercedes something else, put a different badge on it, and what would justify such a price premium to lesser priced cars?
Like it or not, when considering oneself a premium manufacture, brand cachet is a tangible matter, as in you're being charged for it.
Therefore; being the top seller to me is a negative to me for the brand, because that business model was never what built the brand to where they got to begin with. Though, those who will continue to buy M-B's probably value them on different virtues. Results will vary. But on the topic of this discussion, that's my take on it.
11-14-2014 | 08:52 PM
#35
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Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
Fact of the matter is, whether it's admitted or not, the reason many here get M-B's is because of an emotional sensation achieved since ones youth. Kids now aren't seeing M-B so much in the same light, especially post CLA, as M-B's are moving toward a German Toyota with a smaller more upmarket division as well. It's purposeful by them, as it's a new business model. And expansion in the lower priced segments will continue to expand for them.
11-15-2014 | 09:55 AM
#36
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MY17 E43 Matte Selenite/Macchiato Beige, MY16 GLE350d Tenorite/Crystal Grey, MY17 B250
Yep. Both of them are desperate to go higher volume. I don't mind it as much from BMW for whatever reason, as I value them higher on their drive over an emotive connection to them, but all the product dilution and oddball models have kind of turned me off to them as well. I've always been fascinated by what it takes to maintain a high quality, high margin and concisely revered brand appeal.
Does that weaken the 911?
11-15-2014 | 04:05 PM
#37
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Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
Porsche sells more SUVs than sports cars, and the Macan can be had relatively inexpensively (before getting too aggressive with the option list, of course). In a couple of years, Macans will be like Cayennes in terms of discounting - chasing volume.
Does that weaken the 911?
Does that weaken the 911?
They couldn't be any different..The Macan's base MSRP is a marketing scheme as $65k is the basic average selling spec, which is significantly more than MB's. Also, Porsche being as tricky as they are actually used it to raise their SUV entry price, as Cayenne was less last year, and a lot less just years ago.
It's faaaar from product dilution, totally different story than MB. Porsche is still largely boutique in comparison. If Porsche starts putting out 10+ platform variations in years that especially fall behind in class dynamics and push economy car like lease propensity thus declining resale, with FWD platforms, downscale interiors, etc. then absolutely it would hurt the cachet of the 911. Though the 911 is fundamentally irreplaceable, there's nothing else like it, which will always protect it. MB has nothing like that, nor does BMW, Audi or any other volume brand for that matter.
Last edited by K-A; 11-15-2014 at 04:12 PM.
11-15-2014 | 05:15 PM
#38
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MY17 E43 Matte Selenite/Macchiato Beige, MY16 GLE350d Tenorite/Crystal Grey, MY17 B250
Cayenne's don't get discounted near MB levels, and Porsche has cultured a following who has a higher buy than lease rate, which drastically helps resale. The Macan will probably outperform the Cayenne on both metrics, and I don't think will ever see anything nearing large discounts. Also, both will maintain significantly less volume than volume MB's, purposefully so, and maintain vastly industry leading margins.
They couldn't be any different..The Macan's base MSRP is a marketing scheme as $65k is the basic average selling spec, which is significantly more than MB's. Also, Porsche being as tricky as they are actually used it to raise their SUV entry price, as Cayenne was less last year, and a lot less just years ago.
It's faaaar from product dilution, totally different story than MB. Porsche is still largely boutique in comparison. If Porsche starts putting out 10+ platform variations in years that especially fall behind in class dynamics and push economy car like lease propensity thus declining resale, with FWD platforms, downscale interiors, etc. then absolutely it would hurt the cachet of the 911. Though the 911 is fundamentally irreplaceable, there's nothing else like it, which will always protect it. MB has nothing like that, nor does BMW, Audi or any other volume brand for that matter.
They couldn't be any different..The Macan's base MSRP is a marketing scheme as $65k is the basic average selling spec, which is significantly more than MB's. Also, Porsche being as tricky as they are actually used it to raise their SUV entry price, as Cayenne was less last year, and a lot less just years ago.
It's faaaar from product dilution, totally different story than MB. Porsche is still largely boutique in comparison. If Porsche starts putting out 10+ platform variations in years that especially fall behind in class dynamics and push economy car like lease propensity thus declining resale, with FWD platforms, downscale interiors, etc. then absolutely it would hurt the cachet of the 911. Though the 911 is fundamentally irreplaceable, there's nothing else like it, which will always protect it. MB has nothing like that, nor does BMW, Audi or any other volume brand for that matter.
11-15-2014 | 05:45 PM
#39
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Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
I think Porsche has shown that they're extremely cautious about sacrificing high-end brand integrity. They just delayed their mid-size Sedan and also put off a mini Boxster. In this day and age with M-B and BMW throwing every platform sharing boardroom/marketing idea at the wall (into production), IMO that says a lot.
Porsche have by far the industry's highest margins, and I think/hope for the sake of what they stand for, they don't do something dumb enough to sacrifice that, because they reinvest it in truly benchmark dynamic vehicles and things like the 918 Spyder, etc.
IMO being under the VW wing, having VW taking care of the cheap stuff, and then Audi taking care of the M-B/BMW competitor stuff, they should hopefully be left to be an enthusiast-centric brand (which has proven extremely rewarding, as imo some others should take note).
BMW and M-B of course don't have the "luxury" of being under a parent wing, so basically they have to become the volume brand themselves. As an enthusiast, it's a bummer (to me), but it is what it is.
Porsche have by far the industry's highest margins, and I think/hope for the sake of what they stand for, they don't do something dumb enough to sacrifice that, because they reinvest it in truly benchmark dynamic vehicles and things like the 918 Spyder, etc.
IMO being under the VW wing, having VW taking care of the cheap stuff, and then Audi taking care of the M-B/BMW competitor stuff, they should hopefully be left to be an enthusiast-centric brand (which has proven extremely rewarding, as imo some others should take note).
BMW and M-B of course don't have the "luxury" of being under a parent wing, so basically they have to become the volume brand themselves. As an enthusiast, it's a bummer (to me), but it is what it is.
Last edited by K-A; 11-15-2014 at 05:47 PM.
11-16-2014 | 10:35 AM
#40
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2010 E350 Luxury Sedan, Engine 272 (V6)
As for parent company, actually MB is under the DAG parent, which also sells trucks and Smart. May have other divisions and I think in US sells trucks other than MB's. However, you are close to the point that they do not have other large volume makes in US.
11-16-2014 | 11:25 PM
#41
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Another round of ICE
The glued on iPad is awful design from the CLA to the C to wherever else they try it. Thankfully, it seems they are getting the message, at least for some cars. Here is the internet spy photo of the next gen E Class. They are re-discovering the design merit of actually integrating instrument panel components! 
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...or-610x457.jpg
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...or-610x457.jpg
11-17-2014 | 12:07 AM
#42
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From: Vancouver, BC
2015 E250 BT 4M
The glued on iPad is awful design from the CLA to the C to wherever else they try it. Thankfully, it seems they are getting the message, at least for some cars. Here is the internet spy photo of the next gen E Class. They are re-discovering the design merit of actually integrating instrument panel components!
If you look at the several spy photos of an actual prototype W213 @ www.topspeed.com , you will clearly see in one of the exterior shots that the 'iPad' is sitting on the top of the dash, as per W205. This is one of several factors that persuaded me to go for a 2015 E250BT with its more integrated dash.
The other issues that concern me about the W213 include the oval shaped rear window that would reduce rearward visibility (as per W205), the much narrower trunk opening and the apparent growth in body shell length. Since the W205 grew in length by 4", I suspect that it is safe to assume that the next generation W213 will be physically larger than the W212.
11-17-2014 | 01:44 AM
#43
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Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
That photo is of an SLS (?)
The next gen E will definitely have the haphazard unintegrated screen, unfortunately. It'll probably be the next next gens when MB and others following this trend will probably/hopefully about face and go back to actually putting work into architectural design to re-integrate them.
The next gen E will definitely have the haphazard unintegrated screen, unfortunately. It'll probably be the next next gens when MB and others following this trend will probably/hopefully about face and go back to actually putting work into architectural design to re-integrate them.
11-17-2014 | 06:24 PM
#44
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2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
The glued on iPad is awful design from the CLA to the C to wherever else they try it. Thankfully, it seems they are getting the message, at least for some cars. Here is the internet spy photo of the next gen E Class. They are re-discovering the design merit of actually integrating instrument panel components!
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...or-610x457.jpg
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...or-610x457.jpg
Clearly that is NOT a future interior, that is the SLS or a some variation of the SLS' interior. Come on guys, really? Think here. All that hardware is last generation, can't you see that?
M
