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Last American vehicle I owned was a 2003 Ford F150 Supercrew. Fairly loaded up, all the bells and whistles. Never liked driving it though, was so big and ponderous. But what got me about it was how hard it was to work on. Had consistant problems with the coil pacs going, and only the front two were accessible, the back two were hidden beneath the cowl. Such a big truck and they tucked the engine so far back making service just a royal PIA. Would never idle right either.
Replaced it with a Tundra, can get to any part of that v8 without much trouble, no serious issues in ten years. That's why no more American cars for me. This last go around, I didn't even test drive one, though I did go look at a Fusion on the lot. It didn't kill me, especially the interior.
Tundra got looks and very reliable truck!!! I own a ford E250 and had E150 before, all I can say is junk. But thers nothing else out there. Front end is a disease. Tires, brakes, bearings, bolt joints, tie rods. Never drives straight after multiple alignments. Just a nightmare. Plus the rear, replaced bearings and axles. Had 3 Econoline vans and each I replaced steering gear box. Ford build not that tough huh>?!! every time I see the commercial I want to puke, how tough Ford is built lol
I've been working on cars now for over 30 years and I currently own an American car, a Jap car and a Euro car. There is good and bad in all and some are better suited to certain tasks or expectations than others. I hate generalizations but there are a few that I have learned through the years. These of course don't hold true for every situation but if we're going to make generalizations here then these would be mine after owning literally hundreds of cars and working on thousands of cars of most makes and models
American cars are the most underwhelmingly engineered and most cost conscious designs, leading to an overall "cheap" feeling and sometimes relatively crappy end product, although just the past few years have seen many dramatic improvements.
Japanese cars probably find the best balance between adequate engineering and quality while still considering the fact that an automobile is a consumable and ultimately limited lifespan item.
European cars are generally the highest engineered and least cost conscious designs, but sometimes to a fault. many times they are way over engineered hence the very high maintenance costs and the sometimes ridiculously low resale value, as in many cases one failure could easily exceed the value of the whole car. a car is a consumable and doesn't necessarily need to be designed as if it was intended to be a family heirloom
so generally speaking, American cars are the crappiest but most economical to maintain, Jap cars are the middle of the road and euro cars are the best overall cars, until costs start to enter the equation. now to drill it down more than this there has to be many more specifics and again, in the grand scheme of things there is good and bad in all
Your assessment seems accurate. I have owned cars and trucks for 50 years from many manufacturers including European, American and Japanese. What you generalize as a mechanic is true from my experience as an owner.
What I have learned is that problems are something that I do not want in a car and I am wiling to pay the price for not having any. I buy a European car and then trade it in when the warranty expires, which is usually four years. I have the best quality and engineering and if something should go wrong they fix it under warranty. This is not the most sensible thing to do if you want to maximize your investment, however, my main concern is having a new car every few years with no problems. I may even look into leasing next time around even though that is not a money saver either.
When I was younger all that was different. I would buy whatever I could afford, work on it myself and hold on to it for at least seven or eight years. But now at my age that no longer works for me. Now I buy what I want, get a maintenance agreement in advance for service and get rid of it before it goes out of warranty. With this scenario in mind, I just buy what strikes my fancy knowing that virtually any car will last without problems for the 40-50,000 miles I will put on them. It works beautifully as long as you don't get a lemon right off the bat and as long as money is not a big concern for you.
Toyota TUNDRA is the truck to get!! European and the best!
Toyota Tundra's are made in US. There is a lot of competition among US truck manufacturers. The best this year may be 3rd or 4th next year. I have a Toyota Tacoma, but if buying today would get a Nissan Frontier.
European cars are generally the highest engineered and least cost conscious designs, but sometimes to a fault. many times they are way over engineered hence the very high maintenance costs and the sometimes ridiculously low resale value, as in many cases one failure could easily exceed the value of the whole car. a car is a consumable and doesn't necessarily need to be designed as if it was intended to be a family heirloom
so generally speaking, American cars are the crappiest but most economical to maintain, Jap cars are the middle of the road and euro cars are the best overall cars, until costs start to enter the equation. now to drill it down more than this there has to be many more specifics and again, in the grand scheme of things there is good and bad in all
I agree with all of that. I believe that the main reason german cars depeciate so hard is directly related to the insane prices for parts and mechanics. Say a C class costs about 1.3x a loaded American sedan. If MB parts and labor were 1.3x what it costs to maintain the Ford or Chrysler, then I would expect the depreciation would eventually start to come in line.
If MB realizes they have a problem, like the ABC on the early r230's, or the coil packs on the V12's, they _COULD_ act proactively and engineer improved parts (which the sometimes do) and also make those parts available at or near their cost.
They could also set out to support a network of non MB mechanics who could do major repairs at reasonable rates. One per major metropolitan area.
Those two things alone, neither of which has to be run for a loss, would go a LOONG way towards reducing the kidney punch type depreciation they have now.
Also, over engineered systems tend to fail, when they do fail, in spectacular fashion. But an over done fit and finishe can, if well taken care of, deliver superior comfort and appointment for a very long time.
For about 20 years from 85 thru about 05 there was really little reason to trade up other than wear and tear on the old car. I drove things until they were basically worn out, or at least starting to threaten with unreliability on long trips.
But the last 10 years have seen a LOT of innovation in electronics and engineered systems, and I think that trend is really just getting started. I fully expect that in 5 years the new cars will have enough new goodies that are meaningful to me that I will want to trade up.
I wonder if there'll be enough residual value left in what have no to make it a practical trade? lol
If MB realizes they have a problem, like the ABC on the early r230's, or the coil packs on the V12's, they _COULD_ act proactively and engineer improved parts (which the sometimes do) and also make those parts available at or near their cost.
They could also set out to support a network of non MB mechanics who could do major repairs at reasonable rates. One per major metropolitan area.
Those two things alone, neither of which has to be run for a loss, would go a LOONG way towards reducing the kidney punch type depreciation they have now.
Not likely that DAG/MB is going to do either of these. First and foremost, it is a business. They have to make a profit in order to pay shareholders a return on investment and pay for R&D on future vehicles and equipment, just to mention two factors. No money for investors or for R&D has led to demise of many, many auto companies.
Providing parts for those which they have determined are defective, poorly designed, etc. is what recalls and TSB's are for. So, in effect they already do it. Would be nice if they did do more, but somebody has to pay for it.
Besides, who would determine when they would need to "engineer improved parts?"
No way MB is going to support independent mechanics or garages. Dealerships of all makes earn most of their profits from service depts. In fact, many just break even on new car sales.
The dealerships, and rightfully so, would revolt and start selling some other make of car.
In fact, MB believes their dealerships are providing services (including major repairs) at reasonable rates.
MB would also have to provide warranty coverage for repairs made by these independent mechanics.
Who would train and certify the "independent" mechanics? Who would pay for this? Saying you are a "trained or certified MB technician" does not make you one. Furthermore, it doesn't mean you have the latest equipment and latest training. MB dealerships and mechanics do.
You would also have to define metropolitan area.
Said it before, but what I would like to see is for MB to extend warranty far beyond the current 50,000 miles/four years.
I understand the business side of it and understand all to well the reason the MBA jackasses in the suits would never, ever, do any of this.
However, one could easily argue that taken as a long view rather than a short view, staunching the blood flow of depreciation COULD (maybe) lead to a much larger market share and numbers of unit sales. Taking small percentages of market share can equate to very large increases in profits, as the engineering costs amortize over larger numbers of units. Do they want to become Toyota? Of course not. But why not become the seller of 10 year sedans in the mid price segment rather than the seller of "4 years and god help you if you own one after the warranty expires and oh by the way, it'll depreciate twice as fast as anything else you could buy sedans."?
IF they are so damn well engineered, then WHY do they depreciate twice as fast? Easy: public perception, which has gradually figured out while MB wants to sell cars to middle class people, the MB parts, service and dealership mentality definitely only works for the wealthy.
You never hear people say "Yeah, that Corvette is cool and all, but god help you if own one out of warranty". People here say it all the time, and this is a positively biased forum. Take away our love for the cars, and what do you think people are saying? Think that might have something to do with why Corvettes don't depreciate quite as hard as AMG and M products do?
I also never said that MB would have to own the indy network, nor that they would have to warranty the work. If those are issues, then resolve them through busines plan rather than using them as straw man arguments to support doing nothing. For each of your reasons why they can't imagine for a moment what it would take to overcome that limitation. Businesses that find ways to overcome limitations are the ones that thrive. Thank god MB figured out how to overcome the "MB is comfort for the old or wealthy, BMW is for people who love to drive" limitation they were stuck with through the 70's 80s and 90's!!
They could merely offer a lower level of certification and training, at cost (no loss), to selected partners. Hell they could even make it available to anyone who wants it (as in not just selected partners), since they won't be LOSING money on it if they run it "at cost".
They could even do it through another 3rd party, such that the indy's never get any "direct" MB certification or support. The only reason for doing it would be to try to fill the gap between "MB Dealer" @($135/hr) and "Euro Indy" @($100/hr) and "You better be good with wrenches" because everything in between only works on US and/or Japanese cars.
The "gap" between $135/hr and Do it yourself does not exist for US and Japanese cars.
And nobody needs FULL MB capabilities to do brakes. And R&R a bunch of ABC pumps and values. Or change the transmission fluid, or rear diff fluid. I don't take my Ford minivan to the Ford dealer for front brakes. I go to frikkin Pep Boys. Or I (used to) do it myself since the Rotors are $70 ea and the pads are $75 for the really good ones.
Just getting so that otherwise qualified "normal" mechanics able (and willing) to work on a euro car, and getting the parts cost down to "ok, it was more than a Chevy part, but at least I'm not bleeding through my jeans" would go a long way towards making it possible for normal people to justify hanging on to used ones.
Yeah, I know MB doesn't care about the used market. But maybe they SHOULD? Because a stronger 2nd tier of owners doesn't just help people that MB didn't sell a car to... it also makes it easier for their direct customers to cycle product every few years, it makes it easier to justify buying a 2 or 3 MB products rather than one plus a Chevy, it makes it easier to justify buying a college grad a MB for 10 years rather than a Chevy, etc etc.
This is a marketing / public perception / goodwill problem. And it's one than can be fixed (at least partially) should they actually decide they care.
Last edited by nycphotography; 11-01-2015 at 11:21 AM.
You are correct El Cid - no way does any manufacturer undermine their dealers that way. And I also agree in extending the warranty, as others are starting to do. The Huyndai Genesis is highly regarded and getting better all the time. It has a 100,000 mile warranty. A couple years more of improvement both to the car and the dealer experience, and I see it as a legitimate E class competitor. The new Jaguar XF is also considered a competitor to the E class and it is giving you 5 years/60,000 miles, including all maintenance and service even for wear parts such as wiper blades. Jag's reliability has gone way up the last few years and they are willing to prove it. It is time MB steps up and does the same thing.
Toyota Tundra's are made in US. There is a lot of competition among US truck manufacturers. The best this year may be 3rd or 4th next year. I have a Toyota Tacoma, but if buying today would get a Nissan Frontier.
Assembled in US, not made here. Am I mistaking? I'm not a fan of Nissan at all. My mom owned a Murano, all kinds of problems, and design is weird, cheap materials.
MB cars have about the same retained (depreciation) value as any other "luxury" make; higher than some, lower than others. Some MB models do better than others.
MB cares a lot about used cars. That's why they have the CPO program. Some dealerships sell nothing but MB's and used, both CPO and non-CPO, are a significant part of that business plan.
Personally I think MB could charge less for service and parts and cars should be made better. But independents in nycphotography's scenarios are not the answer at all.
My experience with 'American' cars is with Chevy Tahoe's and Suburbans. I've owned 8 of them in the last 15 years. I buy them slightly used (my wife drives them too, we have 4 kids) and they are great. 200K miles and almost no issues. Sure, brake pads/rotors/tires, one alternator, one water pump and one Tahoe needed a new transmission at 220K miles. The alternator I changed in the parking lot of an Autozone while my kids were next door at Chuck E Cheese...simple, cheap and readily available parts. My brother in law has my old Tahoe (w new trans) and it is at 300k mikes.
These are/were all leather interiors, heated seats, all were 4 wheel drive and driven a lot. Some had TV's, sunroofs, etc. The reliability has been great for us and I think they are a good deal overall. Sure, some of the materials are cheesy, they are not the most 'refined' vehicles, but they are dependable and haul a lot of people and hold a lot of stuff....things we need. My 1998 had a 40 gallon tank!
My only American car experience are the ones from the 1960-1971, lol. Those were great too!
2020 S560 Sedan, 2019 SL450, 2019 E450 Luxury Trim Wagon, '24 BMW I7 on order...
These photos sum up my feelings about American cars vs. German cars. A GM guy and his drinking buddies making an "adjustment" on a new Tahoe. Porsche "technicians" taking their job seriously. OK, so a Tahoe isn't a Porsche, but you get the idea. American workers will do anything to get to Miller Time. Germans take pride in doing the job right. Just the way they dress tells the story.
CLS500 AMG package 2006, CL600 2002, SLK230 kompressor 2003 sold, E500 2004 sold, BMW 335xi M sport
Well i have faith that a MB will last long time i saw in auto auction a E500 2005 with 401xxx miles run and drive, i have a slk230 2002 i buy it on aution salvaged, i used it 8xxx miles in 3 months + no isues car has 160xxx miles, my last car was a 335xi it worked fine but has issues due the direct iniection and electric waterpump and the parts are really expensive more than my current MB's, water pump i replaced twice cost me 500 one thermostat 55, alternator bearing (i replace whole alternator used) 100 dlls, and bushings, one radiator and a cv-joint thanks to potholes
in repairs, and oil changes costme around 1000 dlls a year using it like 8000 miles a year (mexican city's usually are more smaller than in USA but has bad roads) the mercedes slk230 i used same miles just in some months due biger city's (highways) and i didnt have any issues and my cls500 i drive it 4000 miles in two months no issues tnx God
These photos sum up my feelings about American cars vs. German cars. A GM guy and his drinking buddies making an "adjustment" on a new Tahoe. Porsche "technicians" taking their job seriously. OK, so a Tahoe isn't a Porsche, but you get the idea. American workers will do anything to get to Miller Time. Germans take pride in doing the job right. Just the way they dress tells the story.
These photos sum up my feelings about American cars vs. German cars. A GM guy and his drinking buddies making an "adjustment" on a new Tahoe. Porsche "technicians" taking their job seriously. OK, so a Tahoe isn't a Porsche, but you get the idea. American workers will do anything to get to Miller Time. Germans take pride in doing the job right. Just the way they dress tells the story.
Would you happen to have a photo from the Tesla plant?
My experience with 'American' cars is with Chevy Tahoe's and Suburbans. I've owned 8 of them in the last 15 years. I buy them slightly used (my wife drives them too, we have 4 kids) and they are great. 200K miles and almost no issues. Sure, brake pads/rotors/tires, one alternator, one water pump and one Tahoe needed a new transmission at 220K miles. The alternator I changed in the parking lot of an Autozone while my kids were next door at Chuck E Cheese...simple, cheap and readily available parts. My brother in law has my old Tahoe (w new trans) and it is at 300k mikes.
These are/were all leather interiors, heated seats, all were 4 wheel drive and driven a lot. Some had TV's, sunroofs, etc. The reliability has been great for us and I think they are a good deal overall. Sure, some of the materials are cheesy, they are not the most 'refined' vehicles, but they are dependable and haul a lot of people and hold a lot of stuff....things we need. My 1998 had a 40 gallon tank!
My only American car experience are the ones from the 1960-1971, lol. Those were great too!
That's awesome when you have great experiences overall that tie directly to family life. No matter what make or model the memories are priceless.
These photos sum up my feelings about American cars vs. German cars. A GM guy and his drinking buddies making an "adjustment" on a new Tahoe. Porsche "technicians" taking their job seriously. OK, so a Tahoe isn't a Porsche, but you get the idea. American workers will do anything to get to Miller Time. Germans take pride in doing the job right. Just the way they dress tells the story.
At one time, American workers were notorious for that attitude. Not so sure it exists anymore. Also, a lot of it has to do with what management permits and doesn't.
As you said, labor cost is a factor. And that factors into how much consumers pay for the vehicles.
As for what they wear, the Porsche guys "uniforms" are probably provided by Porsche and passed on to consumers as part of cost of car.
As for beer, Germans are famous for drinking lots of it, so Porsche workers are probably looking forward to "Miller Time" as well.
These photos sum up my feelings about American cars vs. German cars. A GM guy and his drinking buddies making an "adjustment" on a new Tahoe. Porsche "technicians" taking their job seriously. OK, so a Tahoe isn't a Porsche, but you get the idea. American workers will do anything to get to Miller Time. Germans take pride in doing the job right. Just the way they dress tells the story.
It is very hard to classify cars as good or bad based on geographical location...
With that said there are some nice ones and some God awful ones. Currently we have 3 American cars. 09 Dodge Caravan as our work van. 2 seats and a radio. Hauls tools, dirty parts and other crap. Everything is broken on it and it always runs as needed. We call it the "beater with the heater". Change the oil and you are ready to go.
A 2015 Dodge Caravan. Used when we need to haul people. Has all the toys you can get basically. Then we have a 1955 Ford Crown Victoria my father purchased brand new. Only has 75,000 miles.
I mingle with the older vettes, mustangs and all that when we take that to car shows. Some older Muscle cars are very cool. There is a lot of value in them now a days.
As far as modern American we had a couple. A Dodge Viper and a Corvette C4. I find the trend with American Sports cars and performance sedans to be value for performance with high modification ability and lower cost of operation. Corvette, Viper, Mustang, Viper, Camaro, Tesla, CTS V, ATS V. As where european cars focus more on the quality, attention to detail, styling, engineering and solid feel.
10-30-2015, 08:35 PM
