Darel

nc211,

Just out of curiousity, what's the build date of your car? Mine is 09/13, which I think makes it a really, really, really, really early '14. Like, probably RIGHT after the facelift. I wonder what the cutoff point really was for the seat frames, i.e. how long it took them to realize it.

Also curious, if they knew enough to change the frame after only a year (or less?) of production, why isn't there a TSB or something out there for it? I don't know for sure that there isn't, but I assume had you taken your car in with this complaint, they'd have known it or found it if there were. I haven't gotten around to taking mine in with the issue, mainly because I don't think it'll get me anywhere.

Oh, you'll get your seat frame all right. Just might be a little rusty, is all.

DubVBenz

NC211,

Can you share the part numbers for the different frames? I have access to mb parts catalogs and diagnostic diagrams. I'm hoping I can use those numbers and check 2013s vs 2014s vs 2015s.

nc211

Unfortunately I'm not really sure of my build date, but do note in the carfax that it was delivered to the dealership in early March 2014, so I'm guessing pretty early build as well.

Guess what - the seat frame made it out of Tampa ahead of the storm, and on the FedEx truck for delivery today!! So I hope to at least confirm that it's different than what we've got now. Looking over a few other posts, it looks pretty straight forward to remove from the car. Maybe 4 or 5 screws in general to get it out to make the switch. Think it's only actually attached to the frame of the seat brackets itself by just two torques screws in the front. I'm hoping to get started tonight and start posting up the process and results this week!

Upholstery shop quoted me around $75 to do it for me, which makes me think it's a pretty easy process.

Here's a link to the C series but looks very similar if not identical to ours currently.

https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w...er-s-seat.html

I know they took mine out to add the padding, because they forgot to reattach the rear footwell light, and I found it's mounting screw on the floor.

I suspect a couple of torque screws up front, in clip a few electrical components (seat heater and maybe sensor), and it should lift right out. Then just start unclipping the cover and go from there to swap out the pan.

Darel

The build date is on the black sticker in the driver's door jamb.

Darel

Oh man I'm unnaturally excited to see how this turns out.

nc211

Ah, ok, totally forgot about that sticker!

February 2014.

nc211

Scroll up to post #41, which is when I was on the computer and was able to write them all down while trying to compare everything. They're in that posting (last one with the diagrams.) I'm on my iPhone currently..

According to my invoice from the dealership who replaced the foam padding on mine a few weeks ago (trying to solve this problem), I now have 2015/2016 foam padding and seat cover, on a 2014 seat frame. All appears and feels exactly the same as before (just a bit more padding due to newness factor of the pad itself). So hopefully this new frame will finish it all out, everything 2015/2016, and fingers crossed, will be a cushy and comfy as that 2016 I parked my big old tired dad butt in at the dealership about 10 days ago...

nc211

FIXED!!!!!!

Do NOT buy the frame, they're the exact same.

It is indeed the springs though. The 3 just aren't supportive enough. But wouldn't you know it, the frame's anchor points for the springs are easily capable of doubling up on the springs, meaning twice the support to keep your butt out of the bucket a off the frame edges. I also laid two small microfiber hand towels across the tops of the springs, one folded along the back edge, and one each double folded along the frame edge area of where this whole damn problem came from to start with!

It's an absolute DIY with ease! Seat comes out with just two screws right at the front. Do have to unhook a couple of electronic connectors, but easy to do. Took me all of 20 minutes to remove. Only need two torq bits (if you have that storage box thing at the front of your seat, otherwise you just need one bit).

I'll post more very soon with some easy instructions and photos. But happy to report that this is indeed fixable, and likely for a whole lot less than $150 for a new frame!!! Just need to contact Keiper industries and get 3 more of these springs somehow! They make these seats! I'll include a photo of their label later on.

nc211

I've just spent the past 90 minutes sitting in the car. Absolutely 0% pain. 110% better!

So, for $300 bucks, I figured it out. 1 - needs about an 1 ½ inches of more foam padding. 2- needs stronger springs in the frame. Paid $150 for the foam padding from the upholstery shop, and paid $150 for another frame and transferred those springs to the existing frame to essentially double-up the springs. It all fit perfectly!

I added a few strategically placed hand towels along the edges of the seat frame and atop of the springs, put it back together, reinstalled the seat, and simply enjoyed the result!

The seat is definitely firm now, but feels like a Mercedes Benz should in my opinion. It's not a Buick. The seat is firm, but absolutely supportive in every way now, especially in the lower back and butt.

Taking the seat bottom out of the car is very easy! All that holds it in place are two t-30 screws right under the front lip. Simply raise the seat to it's highest position, remove the storage box (two T25 screws), and you should see the T30's right there on the front lip. Take those out, disconnect whatever electronics you have (I have heated seats, simple disconnection from control module on the seat floor), lift up and pull forward. That's it!

Flip the seat over and start pulling the edges of the cover upward. Might need a plastic paint scraper to help. You will hear a snapping sound, that's normal. It's their clips popping out. I would personally start on the back section of the seat first, as that's the easiest and you'll quickly get the hang of it.

Once the cover is disconnected, simply remove the seat frame. From there, it'll all make sense! Get the 3 other springs from the second frame, install them directly on top of the existing springs in reverse order, and then get a few thin hand towels.

I used two microfiber hand towels (from Amazon) and folded them over once. I placed them on the bottom of the foam support towards the back. I then took one towel each, folded it 4 times, and set them in the grooves of the foam padding where the seat frame edges slide into (don't worry, you'll easily see what I'm talking about once you have it in front of you, makes perfect sense). I then lowered the frame back down onto the rear of the foam padding. Take care to make sure the microfiber towels evenly wrap around those frame edges as it goes into the grooves of the foam padding. Takes a few tries to get all aligned, but certainly not hard to do.

Pull your heating wire through one of the holes so you can reconnect it later.

You want to do this on the floor, because you'll need to use your knee to add pressure to compress the foam padding so you can reinstall the seat cover back to the edges of the frame. The more you compress the foam padding, the easier it'll be to reattach the seat to the frame. This is by far the hardest part. It is a little bit of a pain, but certainly not overly difficult.

Once you've got it all back together, go reinstall back into the car in the reverse order you removed it, and enjoy!

What I would like to do differently (what I learned here) - the 1 ½ of extra padding was not a waste of money, but it's true benefit wasn't really seen until the springs were added for more support. Also - would be nice to not have to buy a $150 frame to take just 3 springs from it and then toss it in the trash. Would be great if we could find the manufacture of the springs and be able to buy them directly for a lot less money!

Honestly, 90 minutes (longest amount of time I've actually been in the car at one time)......0% pain or discomfort now.

Here are a few photos. Happy to answer any questions!!






Final result!





Notice how I went in the opposite direction with the top layer to the bottom layer. Zip tied them together too. VERY easy to do this, they're not high compression. Just slide them out and install them.



Now two instead of one. If you look under your seat from the back, you'll see just one. But there is lots of room to add a second set (even 3 if you really want to, but it's really not needed).

Darel

Thank you so much!

I'll gladly pay $150 even just to take the springs out of the frame.

Can't wait to work on this on my car.

nc211

My commute in this morning (30 miles highway), sooo much better! Actually get out of this car now feeling no pain and quite good.

The extra padding I had installed is a definite help now, highly recommend having that done too if possible. If not, just add more underneath the seat foam pad on top of the springs to get that extra lift.

My microfiber towels are nothing fancy. They're about the size of sheet of notebook paper (8x11) and folded here and there. Can likely get them anywhere. You certainly want to fold them over twice (longways) and squeeze them on top of the frame edge. The foam padding has deep grooves where the frame edges slip into. With the towels, it'll still fit comfortably but will take the bite out of those harsh edges and not compress down like foam does over time. I used one towel on each side, and one along the very back. I laid to folded once on top the springs as well, which also helped.

It's not a soft and cushy seat, but it's also not a park bench either. It's a firm European seat now with lots of support now. Since the pad itself isn't a flat across the top piece, you do still notice the elevated side bolsters, but now you're not being 80% supported by them. It's now about 75% support from the actual center of the seat, and 25% from the bolsters, since you no longer sink deep into the narrow seat bucket.

Appearance wise, nobody is none the wiser of what has been done, other than the seat no longer looking so saggy.

The "wires" the upholstery shop was talking about, was likely the hard pieces of plastic clips that essentially hold the seat cover in place and give it their defined creases and edges. They are there, but not noticeable since the weight distribution is now much more spread out across the entire seat itself.

This will definitely fix the problem as best as possible with what we've got to work with, no doubt about it. The ultimate fix would be different frames and foam padding, but that's just not going to happen. This is probably 95% of what those results would likely be though, which is just fine for me.

Those extra springs is the key here, and are exactly what the seat needs! The half a dozen hand towels also do the trick to take out the remaining bite of the frame edges.

Might have to fiddle with it on how many extra support towels you want to place between the springs and the foam pad to get the exact way you want it, but we're certainly not talking about half the laundry bag!

65 this morning, roled the pano roof back, dropped the windows, set the cruise at 74mph, turned on the seat heater, and thoroughly enjoyed my cruise into the office today with NO added aids for the seat. The extra towel I've been sitting on for the past month, is back in the glove box ready to clean up whatever a 6 and 9 year old can throw at it!

Darel

Awesome. Do you have any details on the foam you added? Are there different densities? Do they have a "durometer" like rubber would?

nc211

I don't other than being told it was "soft foam" from the upholstery shop guys. Nothing specific noted on my invoice either. It is soft, but think that's what you might want to allow cooling though.

nc211

Day 2. Still better, but have decided to go back in and remove the towels along the side bolster and use them to further raise up the middle/back area. Towels seem to be making the side bolsters that much more pronounced. While true, they take the edge off the frame, they're also bulging them up a little too much as well.

I am curious, do the E63 guys have these problems? Because it appears to be the same seat frame for that car as ours, yet different seating in general.

Darel

Ordered my donor seat frame.

What do you think would happen if you tried bending those pressure-point edges of the frame outward? Do you think that would cause any issues? They don't even line up with the seams on the seat cover or anything, they're kinda just sticking up there in the dead center of the side bolster.

I thought about getting some of that 1" circular-profile foam they sell for sticking around the gaps in your air conditioners at home, slitting it lengthwise, and contact-cementing it over the problem edges. But, it sounds like that might create even more of a pressure point?

Thanks,
D

nc211

That might work given more cushion than towels. On mine, I can certainly feel the towel influence on the intrusive aspect of the side bolster. I don't feel the rear frame edges anymore, but do feel the sides more. So hopefully if I remove the towels, the added lift in the center of the seat via the extra springs will be enough to take pressure points on side bolsters way down, to the point where the seat foam padding is enough on its own. We shall see! Good luck on your donor seat too!!

I kept my donor seat for the very reason you mention - messing with the edges to see if it can help. I am curious if there is a way to simply pound the hell out of the edges to reduce their influence in general. Will give it a shot too!

nc211

Guess what I found inside the cushion itself.... guess how friggin hard it is?

Sunnyslope48

It's pretty common to fine springs/wire inside seats, especially bolsters. My Silverado truck has that also. I changed the truck from cloth upholstery to Katzkin leather upholstery. What I found that worked well to beef up the seats was backpackers pad, found in the local Walmart for about $9, in the camping/backpacking area. It's a dense closed cell foam that's quite tough and about 1/2" thick. Some of you may be snow skiers and have been on chairlifts where the seats are hard wood, quite cold, not at all comfortable, and then some have a tough but noticeably more warm and comfortable feel? Well, that's the backpackers foam covering the cold hard seat. I used it the seat backs, seat bottoms, and lumbar support areas. .I think it would be very helpful to anyone who is working on their Benz seats also.

Darel

So there's also a spring inside the foam? Are you doing anything with it? Is it located in that spot that digs into your hips?

nc211

Finding this, I'm certain this is indeed what is digging into our hip. That is probably a 30 to 40 degree angle of this steel wire, and its not nearly padded enough. This might be why my first attempt seemed to move the pressure points forward from my butt to the back of my legs. When I added the towels to the side edges of the frame, I didn't realize that I was also putting upward pressure on this wire from underneath it. Now I get it. The upholstery guy was right after all!

I couldn't understand why my butt could fit inside the donor frame, but then felt like I was sitting on its edges while in the car. It's not entirely the frame's fault. We're catching this wire, and I think more so.

I think as the 3 springs start to sag as I ride and bounce with the car, I'm causing this wire to fold upward and inward from its sides, which is causing the discomfort. So the more support from underneath the center area of the foam pad (and therefore the wire), the less bending upwards from its side edges.

I've removed the towels from the sides, and added them to the center area.

I also grabbed the seat foam, put my knee right in the middle on the back side, grabbed the edges, and bent them backwards as hard as I could. Also, right where it grabs on the butt, is another bend point, but is a 90 degree downward for about two inches and then another 90 degree bend to run across the back of the pad to the other side. Sort of like this below.

-- --
| |
-----------

Because the 3 springs aren't strong enough, the wire is also acting as support too much. If the foam padding were more substantial than this probably would not be a problem.

Going to reinstall the seat tonight and see how it feels now. Starting 1,500 mile road trip tomorrow morning, so we'll see how effective this patch job is long haul. The 3 extra springs are definitely worth it though, no doubt about it!

This is a steel wire. Would be a chore to cut. Would have to do it in bite size pieces which would possibly destroy the foam pad itself. But it can be bent though.

That's awesome advice SunnySlope!!! Thanks!

Edit: doesn't appear as though my iPhone artwork is showing up correctly, but hopefully you can make out what I'm trying to say!

nc211

Yep, that's the ticket alright.

1) Do NOT pad the side edges of the frame.
2) Do try to bend the foam pad upwards from the middle section.
3) Do add the 3 extra support springs.
4) Do add a few hand towels between the springs and the bottom of the foam pad, focusing heavily on the rear section.

These tweaks, and hopefully it'll be just right for you. I'm now completely flat across the seat. Side bolsters much less intrusive than previously. No digging in to legs or butt. No "hot spots". Will hopefully confirm after a 600 mile sit tomorrow through the pretty countryside of West Virgina while heading to Indiana. Now I'm actually looking forward to this drive. Was very close to taking the GTI instead, which 600 miles is a bit of a stretch in that little thing (although very fun in W.VA).

Darel

OK, this is great. I'm sure this will make a little more sense when I take apart my own seat, but when you are talking about bending the seat foam, I am picturing the following. Tell me if I am right.

So if you have the seat right side up and you are looking at it from either the front or the back, the foam and the integral wire support is shaped more or less like this:

\_____/

With the uprights on either end digging into your hips.

So are you saying you flipped the cushion upside down, knelt on it, and bent the outside uprights so that now, if the cushion is looked at right-side-up it's now something more like:

__/----\__

Obviously this isn't accurate but basically right now the cushion is "u" shaped and you are now bending it so that the outside wires are lower, and flatter, and the middle is higher and more "domed" - maybe more of a "W" shape. Do I have that right?

Thanks! Looking forward to hearing the results of this next step. Just got notification my new seat frame will be about 7-10 more days.

nc211

You got it! When you get into it, you'll be able to see it pretty clearly as well. If your cushion is like mine, on the side of the bolsters, you'll see a cutout side with a soft piece inserted into it. You can mess with that soft insert, the wire is behind it.

It's as you describe, and as time goes by and you're sitting on the seat, that \___/ become more like a |___| via the bending of the wire across the center section of the seat, and causing the pressure point. If you can force the wire to go more like a dome in the middle, it'll widen/flatten out the side edges, reducing their effect and corresponding pressure points.

I also set the seat cushion on the ground, put on my shoes, and stood on those 90 degree angles that are right at the rear corner edges to help bend them downward a little as well.

We're basically feeling all of the angle points of this wire, and the seat frame is enhancing them. Since you don't feel them when the car is new, the only logical explanation i can come up with is that over time the wire has been bent downward in the bottom of the seat, making the side edges (and these angle points) rise upward as a response. This is enhanced by not enough spring support in the seat frame itself to prevent the wire from bending in the first place. By bending the wire back to a dome position, you're essentially reversing the effect that has occurred over the years.

When you're placing your towel supports, focus on the rear of the seat and the angled section of the rear of the seat frame that leads up to the rear edge of the frame. You'll see it when you get into it. There's a void of space in that rear angle section that goes from the bottom up to the back edge/rail of the seat frame. I basically have the equivalent of a shower towel in there now folded up.

First time I tried, I did not remove the seat cover from the pad (couldn't figure it out). Last night I did figure it out mostly. If you want to lift up the cover, there are locking points in the foam itself that make up the seat cover creases. You'll see them, they're blue. To remove the cover from the clips, it's a "push down and out" procedure. I was not able to fully remove it though because there are two clips on the door side that I could not figure out, so I went at it from the other side and was able to lift it up to see underneath. Good spot to insert some extra foam padding if you want. There are two sleeves in the underside of the cover itself that has two foam inserts as well, but I think they're wired into the heat seater function.

I just sat in mine again this morning while loading up the car. It's definitely a million times better than when I first started, and a thousand times better than my first attempt, which taught me that I need more towel support on that angle area in the back, no extra padding along the frame's edge directly, and to bend the wire back upwards in the middle of the seat.

The hardest part of the process is removing the seat cover. I recommend starting from the back of the seat. The whole edge is clipped onto the frame's underside edge, and the cover lip is folded over and downward onto that lip. Takes a little effort, and definitely does not feel natural to do. Makes notable "snap" sounds. But don't worry, that's normal. The trick is getting it back on, because it has to slip into a small gap on the seat cover's edges. You'll see the clip rail once you get into it. I will say that the clips are tough and can take some abuse. They're not fragile, so you should worry about breaking anything.

You might have to try a couple of times to get it just right for you, but once you've done it the first time, you'll realize just how simple and easy it is to do! Took me 5 minutes to remove the seat last night on the second time ever.

nc211

200 miles and 4 hours thus far, and it's perfect so far! Zero discomfort and no squirming in the seat to get comfortable. Enjoying driving this road warrior finally at 80mph, a true treat! Outside of Morgantown, WV having lunch with my son (who has turned the back seat into a command post). I think we've got it figured out now and totally fixed!

nc211

I have driven this car nearly 1,000 miles this weekend so far with no more discomfort than any other car I've ever had in the past! A couple of Advil needed on first 600 mile stretch, but would need that for any car to be honest. Quite comfortable now. I am 100% satisfied at this point. Firm but supportive. Feels a lot more like an old school Mercedes Benz than the new ones that I've sat in at the dealership (which are nice too).

Will be doing the the same procedure for the passenger seat soon too.