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If you want the best, most reliable W212s you should not be buying 4Matic ones. 4Matic should be purchased only if you need the system because of where you live. The 4Matic cars have more issues and are more costly to fix in terms of common issues (like engine mounts) than RWD cars.
I had Mercedes E350 2013 4Matic bought 2016 with 43000 miles. At 121000 on 2/7/2019 front driveshaft broke after making sound for around 3 months. It broke catalytic converter and oxygen sensor. Actually it broke when mechanic drive tested it. Can we blame to shop? I don't we can right. So it fixed for around $2500. Then now at 172000 miles 4/10/2021 it left me stranded around 140 miles and cost me $500 for towing to home. The closest shop is 46 miles but it about to close on Sat and will open Monday. Geico tow is scam they claimed it cover up to 100 miles but only to close shop and didn't care if shop will close if more than that they only cover 20 miles. So lesson learned get AAA for around 100 per year for up to 200 miles with no condition.
Look like it common problem because I seen in youtube same problem E350 2013 4matic https://youtu.be/RRotY6Aaj18
Also C300 2010 https://youtu.be/lwUQgEDF-9s
Also for w211 https://youtu.be/4qladkloGkM
No you can't blame the shop. He didn't break it. Are you saying that the same thing happened again?
Almost same problem but lucky I get before it break and have to tow car around 140 miles from home. The boot seal broke the one close to transfer case the one on front differential look ok
I made mistake first time it broke it make noise but I didn't know where the noise coming. Until I bring to shop and they test and it broke and wasted catalytic converted and oxygen sensor. So when it make noise again which little bit different I bring to same shop but they told me it belt pulley and idler pulley. So I replace both but still make noise but it kind of sometime make noise sometime not but always while driving. Until I travel around 140 miles and it vibrate like droning noise so this time I pay tow US$500 rather than broke again drive shaft propeller which can break something else which that time cost me $2500. Now I tow to home and I need to tow again to shop. But if this will happen a lot I rather buy front axel propeller from FCP and got lifetime warranty or maybe only boot seal. I think I feel car vibrate so it abouit time to replace engine and transmission mount because now it had 170000 miles and maybe one of the reason front axel propeller not last long because the mount is not in good condition. But next problem mercedes dealer and even Indy shop I used will not accept part from customer. So look like I have to do it myself. Is anyone had ever had same problem have to replace front axel propeller?
Actually it slip and make noise in drive or reverse not like first incident which only make noise and not slip.
I have also wondered whether failing mounts could contribute to the shaft failure. When they replaced the shaft the first time did they use a OEM or aftermarket shaft?
I think the problem is in transfer case part that connect to front driveshaft. Boot broke make it dry and cause wheel bearing damaged in transfer case. So if not the thread in front drive shaft damaged then the bearing in transfer case damaged because the car make droning sound and it feel like slip
Front driveshaft is OEM. The car had problem with front driveshaft for few months so the vibration cause the bearing in transfer case impacted so the seal boot damaged because it vibrate cause the bearing to fail. The seal boot is only as a sign of bearing damaged.
I have also wondered whether failing mounts could contribute to the shaft failure. When they replaced the shaft the first time did they use a OEM or aftermarket shaft?
If I see how the front differential is attached , kinda integrated to engine oil pan ( I hope I am correct ),.........
in theory engine mount wearing out does not effect the angle of the front propeller shaft from transmission to front differential, as the transmission and differential basically are
on the same height/angle all the time.
Transmission to rear differential is another story, engine mounts can effect angle of attack of the rear propeller shaft to rear differential, hence MB uses the flexible Guibo/flex/rubber couplings.
What I see as potential cause resulting in front propeller shaft keep failing or early demise, is the output shaft from transmission to the front propeller shaft itself, item 4 below.
Item 4 above shows the inside where the U-joint is hidden, below is how it looks like in real life where the U joint is cocooned.
If we take a closer look at item 4 as installed, if ever the rubber boot of the front propeller shaft goes bad, when water enters that deep cavity of item #4 where the U-joint is hidden,
some of the water can never escape out till it dried out on its own because the shape and installation angle of the cavity is "water-trapping."
Water will corrode the bearings of the u-joint. Once the U-joint bearing goes bad and excessive play occurred , the front propeller shaft will be spinning + whipping and short lived.
If I may suggest suggest, use an inspection camera ( borescope ) and take a peek at the condition of this item #4 internal U-joint whenever a front propeller shaft failed or have issue.
Now the unfortunate & rather poor design of how the rubber boot method of protecting the output shaft #4 cavity. Same video above and go to 18:59
Observe the gap between rubber boot lip and the transfer case ( back side of transmission) housing which hold item #4 output shaft.
Since the rubber boot spins along with the propeller shaft, and the housing is static, this set up can never be as water-proof as how the rubber boots of CV joint bearings function.
If it weren't for the water trapping cavity hiding the U-joint inside item #4, 1 less weakness can be reduced.
If I were to own a 4matic, before rainy season I would push out the rubber boot and inject lots of waterproof grease to that cavity till grease comes out like how
we maintain heavy duty ball joint with a grease injection port.
The kind of worst case if not near worst case scenario of the damage I saw from this front propeller shaft doing its death dance, on our forum friend Alan e550: https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w...oken-axel.html ..................... is simply too scary to ignore.
A 2-3 hours a year greasing work on the item #4 cavity is worth it if you ask me.
2020 GLS450 / 2024 Ford Bronco / (former) W212 4-matic 350 sport package
Excellent post by S-Prihadi! Should be it’s own thread topic so it doesn’t get lost in the noise!
I really like the 4Matic, but it’s not without its faults on this car. I just spent a pretty penny on fixing a front differential leak at two places and I’m at 55k miles on a 2014. A design flaw exists where there is no fill plug on the front diff, so the passenger side axle has to come out to refill. It’s almost as if MB knew the shaft seal would likely go out anyway causing the axle to come out for the repair and decided that’s when the gear grease should be replaced along with the repair.
I like the 4Matic in the pouring down rain. Car is so planted and solid at highway speed it’s simply defies the laws of physics. It’s also a tank in winter weather as well. But knowing what I know now after owning it for 4 years, I might skip the 4Matic if the choice were to be made.
I justify the nearly $6k I’ve spent now on maintaining the car over the last 18 months on the fact that it’s not a “throw away” vehicle that you buy with a set thinking you'll only want to have it for 5 years or so and get the next version. To me, it’s a long term hold, and age kills seals and I should expect some cost along the way to keep it in excellent condition. I think it’s reasonable to expect repair costs into the thousands for any vehicle that starts to creep past 7 years of age regardless of mileage. We replaced a 2013 Toyota Highlander last year that was looking at about $2,800 in needed repairs for mounts, struts, etc. And that wasn’t my only Toyota product to need it (including Lexus). I think probably the only true 10-year vehicle you can buy that won’t ask much of you for repairs is probably a new Toyota Landcruiser. But do really want 12MPG’s and a constant uneasy feeling of rollover risk if you ever had to quickly avoid something? And even then, they’re not perfect either. Neighbor has a 3 year old Lexus GX570 (the landcruiser lexus), and it’s soaked them on brakes and an oil leak already.
If I see how the front differential is attached , kinda integrated to engine oil pan ( I hope I am correct ),.........
in theory engine mount wearing out does not effect the angle of the front propeller shaft from transmission to front differential, as the transmission and differential basically are
on the same height/angle all the time.
Transmission to rear differential is another story, engine mounts can effect angle of attack of the rear propeller shaft to rear differential, hence MB uses the flexible Guibo/flex/rubber couplings.
What I see as potential cause resulting in front propeller shaft keep failing or early demise, is the output shaft from transmission to the front propeller shaft itself, item 4 below.
Item 4 above shows the inside where the U-joint is hidden, below is how it looks like in real life where the U joint is cocooned.
If we take a closer look at item 4 as installed, if ever the rubber boot of the front propeller shaft goes bad, when water enters that deep cavity of item #4 where the U-joint is hidden,
some of the water can never escape out till it dried out on its own because the shape and installation angle of the cavity is "water-trapping."
Water will corrode the bearings of the u-joint. Once the U-joint bearing goes bad and excessive play occurred , the front propeller shaft will be spinning + whipping and short lived.
If I may suggest suggest, use an inspection camera ( borescope ) and take a peek at the condition of this item #4 internal U-joint whenever a front propeller shaft failed or have issue.
Now the unfortunate & rather poor design of how the rubber boot method of protecting the output shaft #4 cavity. Same video above and go to 18:59
Now look at another video , at 0:08 https://youtu.be/eSyZBDnoals
Observe the gap between rubber boot lip and the transfer case ( back side of transmission) housing which hold item #4 output shaft.
Since the rubber boot spins along with the propeller shaft, and the housing is static, this set up can never be as water-proof as how the rubber boots of CV joint bearings function.
If it weren't for the water trapping cavity hiding the U-joint inside item #4, 1 less weakness can be reduced.
If I were to own a 4matic, before rainy season I would push out the rubber boot and inject lots of waterproof grease to that cavity till grease comes out like how
we maintain heavy duty ball joint with a grease injection port.
The kind of worst case if not near worst case scenario of the damage I saw from this front propeller shaft doing its death dance, on our forum friend Alan e550: https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w...oken-axel.html ..................... is simply too scary to ignore.
A 2-3 hours a year greasing work on the item #4 cavity is worth it if you ask me.
As others have said great post.
So this shows how I am becoming increasing mentally feeble. I knew that the front differential shaft went through the oil pan which implied as you say the differential has a fixed location to the transfer case. My next thought was then why do they need a u-joint if there is no angular motion. Then I lost tract of the first thought and went down the mount influence path which I agree should have little of any influence on the shaft. So thank you for clearing up my erroneous thinking.
If I interpret you post correctly you are focused on the u-joint at the transfer case end. Just for clarity you recognize that the failures are occurring at the other end of the shaft. Does that end have a boot around the u-joint that we could apply your hypothesis to?
The U-joints (2) at both ends of the transfer case output shaft >>>front propeller shaft>>>to front differential is I think for ease of installation and allowance for manufacturing tolerance of various bolt on components which may be off 0.X millimeters here and there.
Yes, the failure occured mainly on the U-joint at the differential side, from what I read.
My thinking is this way, the power provider is the transfer case output shaft the spline one via a U joint and then some length of the front propeller shaft.
The more a distance away from the power provider, shaft can whip due to flexing or not 100% accurate welding of 2nd U-joint, the worse effect is at the 2nd U-joint, the power receiving end.
I forgot the mathematical name for above : 1 degree off target.... at say 10cm is let say 1mm off. By the time the distance is 50cm away, that 1 degree off is more than 1mm from true center line or true target.
In navigation we call this cross track error. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_in_60_rule
A "sealed" bearing of the U joint of the differential does not need a rubber boot. When it get wet, as long as not submerged, water will be thrown out by the centrifugal force of the spinning propeller shaft.
In the case of the U joint at the transfer case, its cavity can keep water inside much longer and water damages the U-joint. It is like a splash bath lubrication of a rear differential crown gear + pinion in the casing, but instead of oil, we use water
Also by hidden away from possible inspector/mechanic eye view, that hidden in a cavity U-joint at the transfer case is a classic I-don't-see-it,so-it-must-be-okey.
I have to disagree with you in regard to the V8 engines. The M273 has been extremely reliable for me. Gas mileage is obviously a joke but that’s to expect with a displacement of 5.5l. Very reliable power plant.
What sort of fuel mileage are you getting with yours? I have had mince for about 2 months now, and so far averaging around 11L per 100 Ks. Obviously not fantastic fuel economy, but it is comparable to the BMW 335i (N54) I had, and my old 370GT Skyline (G37).
I have seen some people reporting much higher consumption than what I'm getting which made me skeptical of buying the car, but so far I have been quite surprised by it.
Mas S Prihadi thank you for comprehensive explanation. I have called few Transmission shop close to Dallas and look like nobody work on Mercedes. I also called Mercedes and they have to check it but very likely my problem same as the youtube 2012 C300. If that the case Mercedes would not replace transfer case only most likely they will replace complete transmission even transmission works fine. So based on that youtube look like transfer case can be opened without removing transmission from the car. Do you know where can I get part number 4 you post with picture called as Integrated universal joint? Also another option to replace transmission with used one but Trans shop told me it difficult because maybe only MB Dealer can program it. Look like I have to open the transfer case because other option will be between $3k-$6k. Is it possible to disable 4 Matic so only rear wheel enable, at least I can bring to shop without towing?
Mas S Prihadi thank you for comprehensive explanation. I have called few Transmission shop close to Dallas and look like nobody work on Mercedes. I also called Mercedes and they have to check it but very likely my problem same as the youtube 2012 C300. If that the case Mercedes would not replace transfer case only most likely they will replace complete transmission even transmission works fine. So based on that youtube look like transfer case can be opened without removing transmission from the car. Do you know where can I get part number 4 you post with picture called as Integrated universal joint? Also another option to replace transmission with used one but Trans shop told me it difficult because maybe only MB Dealer can program it. Look like I have to open the transfer case because other option will be between $3k-$6k. Is it possible to disable 4 Matic so only rear wheel enable, at least I can bring to shop without towing?
When the bearing(s) in my transfer case needed to be replaced I had the same experience as you, local transmission shops wouldn't touch it. You are correct Mercedes would not rebuild / replace the transfer case separately. Had to buy the whole transmission to the tune of $8500. But a local indy did rebuild it for $2500. It didn't last a year but he rebuilt it again for free but it cost me a front differential replacement to get it diagnosed the second time.
Thanks for the info so I need to rebuild front differential in addition to fix the part in transfer case. The car now 170k miles so I will also replace engine mount, transmission mount, 2 flex disk, 2 boot seal in rear drive shaft and bearing in intermediate connecting front and rear shaft. Look the car will out for quite time. I already had engine and transmission mount. I need to take off front driveshaft to confirm problem in drive shaft and while doing that I need to take off exhaust so I might as well take off rear drive shaft to inspect what part I need to buy. I will buy most part from FCP Euro with lifetime warranty so I can replace whenever it wear out again with no cost if I man up and do this myself. I might consider to open and inspect rear differential for bad bearing and replace if bad.
Look like Mercedes not reliable compare to Honda for driveline. I had Honda Accord 95 drive that for 200k and still had original shaft and shock when I junk it. I also had Pilot 2003 and now had 270k and about to junk because Transmission slip from 2 to 3 when it heat around 140F. But the pilot had original almost everything except engine replaced around 140K miles because spark plug shoot out. That I think my mistake using cheap torque wrench replace spark plug to overtight and it broke few months after that. Another mistake it had white smoke and call shop which told me ok to drive and blowout when I drove it.
I need to find SUV replacing Pilot 2003 and thinking about Volvo XC60 T5 2015 which had great mpg around 23/30. What do you think is that good choice? Mercedes GLK350 is ok but I hate the fact it only 17/23 mpg and of course no more 4matic and another but it rear wheel so it kind of not safe in snow and Volvo is FW.
Look like the only way to keep Mercedes above 100K miles is to be mechanic for your own car if not it will drain you fast to keep it. Most of the part failing such as front drive shaft you will likely find in ebay after market parts. So far it cost me $2500 two year ago when front driveshaft broke and bring catalytic converter and oxygen sensor. So from now on buy expensive parts from FCP Euro with lifetime warranty, so it would not cost much as long you want to lie down below the car fixing it. So far I have replaced all struts with Bilstein B6 for front and B4 for rear and also replace belt, idler pulley and tensioner pulley.
Thanks for the info so I need to rebuild front differential in addition to fix the part in transfer case. The car now 170k miles so I will also replace engine mount, transmission mount, 2 flex disk, 2 boot seal in rear drive shaft and bearing in intermediate connecting front and rear shaft. Look the car will out for quite time. I already had engine and transmission mount. I need to take off front driveshaft to confirm problem in drive shaft and while doing that I need to take off exhaust so I might as well take off rear drive shaft to inspect what part I need to buy. I will buy most part from FCP Euro with lifetime warranty so I can replace whenever it wear out again with no cost if I man up and do this myself. I might consider to open and inspect rear differential for bad bearing and replace if bad.
Look like Mercedes not reliable compare to Honda for driveline. I had Honda Accord 95 drive that for 200k and still had original shaft and shock when I junk it. I also had Pilot 2003 and now had 270k and about to junk because Transmission slip from 2 to 3 when it heat around 140F. But the pilot had original almost everything except engine replaced around 140K miles because spark plug shoot out. That I think my mistake using cheap torque wrench replace spark plug to overtight and it broke few months after that. Another mistake it had white smoke and call shop which told me ok to drive and blowout when I drove it.
I need to find SUV replacing Pilot 2003 and thinking about Volvo XC60 T5 2015 which had great mpg around 23/30. What do you think is that good choice? Mercedes GLK350 is ok but I hate the fact it only 17/23 mpg and of course no more 4matic and another but it rear wheel so it kind of not safe in snow and Volvo is FW.
No. What happened was when the transfer case went out the second time I took it to another indy and they said the front differential was bad and replaced it but the transfer case noise was still there. They showed me metal in the differential fluid but I still don't believe that it was bad given that the noise was exactly the same as when I took it in. They then called the first indy and told them that the transfer case was bad. I took it back to him and he rebuilt it again free of charge.
Perhaps stick with Honda - or better yet, Toyota/Lexus - for your replacement SUV. Honestly a 2013 E-class should not be expected to be as reliable as a Pilot that is a decade older, and certainly not as reliable as a 1995 Honda Accord. The Mercedes is an order of magnitude more complex than either of those. With complexity comes the potential for problems.
I try to find part for front driveshaft in transfer case but even in Mercedes EPC it not listed. Look like Mercedes intentionally do this to make profit they change design of transfer case from W211 to W212. W211 easy to repair because transfer case separate from transmission using chain and look like many youtube of how to repair it and look like it very easy to fix. So Mercedes could not make profit fixing transfer case so they change and make it internal to Transmission and even they don't list to sell part of transfer case for front driveshaft as shown below from EPC
So they know that part had tendency to broke from many incident that broke front driveshaft and they don't sell the part instead will ask customer to pay the whole transmission and the cost include labor is $8K. So instead of sell the part for under $500 they made revenue $8k. I think we should make lawsuit for this.
I remember that E350 is new design and MB spent a lot in R&D for this model. So to overcome that cost they find a way to make profit by redesign the transfer case in transmission and make the front driveshaft relatively small so it break easily and if that broke would also damage transfer case and bingo they make money after sales very time customer car had problem with transfer case. They really smart but this really unfair to customer.
The funny thing China is expert to make copy of the part they think this is good market many will prefer to spend $650 than $8000. The part available in Alibaba
This the part number of transfer case in my car.
I made wheel stand because didn't trust jack stand and will use jack stand as backup. I will also make base for jack stand so I didnt have to raise the jack stand inner part too high because it not reliable if raised too high.
Yes i think i beginner compare to you and I did experience many jack failure and so far I am not down there and so far car also not damaged. I dont want to be guy dead or became invalid fixing car because failed jack stand.
Now I know that you had experience taking off transmission I have question. Did you think below transmission jack strong enough for E350 2013? 450 lbs. Low Lift Transmission Jack (harborfreight.com)
So far I never do anything engine (only spark plug) or transmission. I am looking for Indy close to Plano and so far I have called European show and Transmission shop they even no for Mercedes because reprogram will be tough. So my plan just to open until transfer case without remove the transmission if possible and I see one youtuber shared how he did remove transfer case by removing long bolt without removing whole transmission.
04-11-2021, 09:21 AM
