Hello,

I have a 2010 E350 4matic with around 130k miles on it, recently we are experiencing some very high vibration felt thru the car and specially steering wheel when turning in both directions. I've checked on the motor and transmission mounts and they are fine. I took it to a few mechanics and everyone points at something else, so i'm trying to see if anyone has experienced this before and what could this be?

- vibration happens when turning both left and right
- low or high speed
- felt mostly at steering wheel

thank you in advance

 

You are asking people who can't look at your car but you have had several mechanics look at the car, but you don't say what the mechanics thought the problem is. My GUESS would be worn steering parts.

 

More guessing game antics. This is getting really old. I suspect your transfer case is failing on you, which means it’s time for a new transmission. Grab your wallet.

 

Wrong sub-forum for C240.

High/Low speed is that vehicle or turning the wheel? Does it occur when stationary and turning the wheel?

 

i'm asking on here because most mechanics in person are just trying to get a job instead of finding the real solution, i went to 4 and each said something different, cv-axil, drive shaft, engine mounts, trans mount. People on here actually care to help and try to help find the solution without expecting anything in return, that's why i'm here.

and to reply to bmwpower...no i'm in the right one, i clearly stated what car i'm driving, as well as low/high speed. i don't look at people's bio when they talk about their issue but what they post. and where they post it. doesn't seem like you read what i posted but only the title.

the issue happens both stationary and moving, but gets worst much worst as soon as the car moves. both low and high speed.

 

My mistake... I overlooked your 2010 E350 in the post. Are the motor mounts original? Still have answered the high/low... no its not clear to me. Is that speed of the vehicle moving OR speed at which you turn the wheel?

 

vibrates whether car is moving slow or fast. sharp turns are felt the most. motor mounts are original but stil in great shape.

 

You said its also apparent when stationary... I say you have two issues... likely the motor/trans mounts are gone. 6-10/yrs or 60/100k is normal life for them. How are you evaluating their in great shape? That may explain your stationary vibration. Now as far the vibration underway, partially may be the mounts... since it a 4Matic, the transfer case and CVs would be suspect.

 

thank you, i've replaced mounts before so i removed both and inspected them and they seem well intact still. also when i say stationary, it's only when turning the wheels and stationary, so the vibration is then when turning and left and right even if stationary but it increases alot when moving, hope that makes sense. I found a similar thread and seems you're right, it's most likely the transfer case from what everyone is saying and specifically the rear planetary gear. they had few ideas of fixing this including doing donuts in a parking lot in drive in both directions for few minutes as well as reverse. someone even stated to lift the whole car up and put the car in dyno mode and run up to 800 rpm for 1 min in D and R. could help heat up the disks which might solve in temporarily and for some permanently. not sure if any of this makes sense to anyone

 

If it's an axle, your whole car will shake, sometimes very violently. But, you wont feel it in the steering wheel at all.
I still thinks it's your transfer case bidding adieu.

 

On a 4matic to remove the mounts (engine) is a lot of work... just to "inspect them". Too much work to not replace and I'd be certain that your issue when stationary. I agree with KEY08.

 

Yeah, I wouldn't remove them to inspect, I'd have the replacement part from FCPEuro to get the lifetime replacement. People that replaced them and said they didn't notice much vibration still had collapsed mounts. I think they're also liquid filled so I'm not sure you can really inspect them to tell if the liquid is still in the mount or if there's some crack and it leaked out. At least the transmission mount is easy to get at, should at least replace that one. I think if the OP had the new one and an old one side by side as part of the inspection, the new one would always be a little bit higher. Bad motor mounts are much more common than a bad transfer case, but I'd eliminate the obvious first before going to the more complex and less likely. And I would probably take it to the Mercedes dealer and have them do a diagnostic and just tell them about the vibration without mentioning the transfer case and see what they come up with. These other mechanics don't sound like they're that familiar with the car.

 

Hi Moose,

I don't have 4-matic, so I can't comment on them.
However, engine & tranny mounts are a fast consumable for me.
I am on my 3rd engine + tranny mounts at 30,000KM. 3rd counting factor installed as 1st, so twice replacements so far.
I am very sensitive to engine & tranny mount state of change.

If being stationary and you can feel the vibration, keeping transmission mechanical parts trouble aside for now.....
It can only means 2 things :

1 - your engine itself is vibrating more than normal, misfire maybe , vibration damper damage maybe....whatever.

2 - your engine + transmission mount can't isolate enough of the said engine vibration ( assumed normal/healthy engine ) because it is no more as compliant as when it was new.
Don't think that only obvious visually damaged or worned out engine mount is then a problem with engine mount.
Engine mount & tranny mount total flex up and down and the amount of force it can absorb/handle and its current loaded height .........matters.


Look at the table below to see how minute engine and transmission mount height* change ( *angle change ) is allowed :













Below is my service database :




How is the tranny mount after 13,227 KM ?

.

Is it worned out ? Well physically NO, but I can feel its state of change from the loaded height between left (old) and new one on the right.



How are the engine mounts after 18,000 ish KM ?

UNLOADED






Do these engine mounts cause vibration during idle / stationary ? NO
Then why did I replace them ? Because under hard throttle I can feel a tiny bit extra vibration when compared to virgin new feel.
Most people won't feel what I feel. I am ultra sensitive to minor out of spec tranny and engine mounts. That is just me.

==============
Our BMW ( bmwpowere36m3) is a vibration engineer, if my memory serves, with a helicopter company.
So when it comes to vibration, he is at the top of the game.
==============

I like keeping my car's suspension and dampening/vibration quality as a new-virgin as possible.
That is the reason for "short" lived components by my standard.


Below value is something BMW can understand to a greater detail :



Above is about a typical W212 2 parts propeller shaft which uses only 1 universal joint. I am speaking of RWD version.
It shows that by nature of a single universal joint . True as straight as possible with least angle change is my target for engine>>tranny>>2 parts propeller shaft>>differential.


Here is a visual explanation for us non engineers :



So the expected life on the engine and tranny and DIFF mounts, will depend on how sensitive you are to the changes from brand new "baseline".
I am speaking of mounts not damaged to the point of being a crap, I am speaking of useable good-comfy service life.


I have a new DIFF mount, which I will replace soon.
I have replaced all 4 exhaust rubbers mounts too, very recently. It is so cheap and so DIY.
What I still can not measure is : what those 3 angle values are on car now as per the diaghrams I pasted ?
I don't have the Romes tool MB uses and the special "zero" baseline plate to mount the Romes at the transmission body.
As long as my my chassis is still okey, my butt dyno is what I rely on for vibration sensing

Happy troubleshooting .........

 

And as an FYI to the OP, those are RWD motor mounts and transmission mounts. the AWD motor mounts and transmission mounts are different.

 

S-Prihadi,

Thanks for the very good post about the mounts and drive shafts. I need to check my mounts as I have 180000 miles on the clock in me E550, but I have no vibrations at any speed at all. This is kind of odd I think as you change mounts twice for that mileage...

But, I have vibrations with my S550 at around 65 - 70 mph speed and it is not the engine as changing gears does not change the vibration. I think it is coming from the drive shaft system between gear box and rear differential. I had differential oil changed and at the same time asked the mechanic {dealer} to check if the pinion shaft bearing has any play on it and the shaft components are ok and he said they all are fine. This has had me thinking about the angles between shafts and gear box and rear differential as the angles can cause the problem. I think I have a mounts job to do...

This drive shaft design from MB is just WRONG! They put a U-joint in the shaft with almost zero angle. Makes me think if they did this on purpose to bring cars in for service as U-joint with needle bearings without about 10 degrees minimum angle will wear out as the rollers do not get enough movement that brings lubrication without adequate angle, which is thought to be about 10 degrees in general in engineering. But, if the U-joint is with slide bearings (no needle bearings) it is a bit different story as they like low angles better. But it still is wrong design as they have 3 joints. Should have only 2 or then 4 with correct angles to eliminate the "oval" speed component in the shafts.

That video with the sprockets and credit card is extremely good demonstration of how the U-joint works. Thanks a lot!

 

Arrie,

Bad roads and the way I drive + my sensitivity is what made those mounts short lived.
The 20 laps at the circuit were on the last replaced mounts too, that 18,000KM life. Surely the 20 laps did its own damage. The circuit has much more right hand corners than left, so left suspension worked much more.
My sway bar links, the left one, the ball joint to the strut has its rubber boot torn because of that 20 laps abuse.

The first engine and tranny mounts replacement at 10,000 KM ish was more of a baseline reference for me, since I got the car pre-owned and almost 4 years old albeit close to 10,000KM only,
I need to know how it feels if brand new engine mounts and tranny mount.

For me and all my personal daily drive, engine mounts will be "short lived" and more so if front wheel drive.

Arrie wrote :
I have vibrations with my S550 at around 65 - 70 mph speed and it is not the engine as changing gears does not change the vibration.

Does it get worse as you go faster to say 100 MPH ?
Does it matter if you throttle hard or soft reaching 65-70 MPH or beyond that ? Any stronger vibration ?

First you must find out what frequency and the "order" of vibration you are having, that will help you focus on the culprit.
This simple Apps is not bad, have assisted me quite well. Use a very good windshield suction cup mount, say a RAM brand.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...cy&hl=en&gl=US
Get the paid one, US$9.49
Not the easieest Apps to use though.








Here is a video from Toyota, NVH 101. PDF version also attached.


Also attached, document NVH from Chrysler and VW, if you want to read more. The Toyota one would suffice though.

I attached my frequency spreadsheet which I used to solve my UNIQUE vibration issue. It was more than just engine and tranny mounts as the culprit/s.
The spread sheet is based on my transmission, final diff ratio and tire sizes. I name it Component Frequency Table.xlsx
You can create something similar your own way or modify mine , change the formulas and values to suit your car.
I am not good at all with Excel, apology for the way I linked the formula is rather long winded ... LOL.
The master input is the yellow box ENGINE RPM, once all the formulas/values are linked and correct as per your car..... that RPM is all you need to enter.

I did a lot of test to verify if my 2 piece propeller shaft has issue. Very time consuming. Out of round / Run Out measurement on shaft , etc etc.

Making sure all bolts torqued well and flex coupling OK.



Run out test for propeller shaft is not something I can yet do properly.
Aside from 3 points test on a spinning propeller shaft is not possible due to exhaust pipe blocking forward and middle region of propeller shaft, there are other concern.
Here is why :
I am using Quick Jack with rubber pads and the MB jack adapter.
If we want to measure something so minute a value, while it has a decent mass and spinning on the car, the dial base has to be mounted on the car itself and not from the floor.
My magnetic base is not long and solid enough to be able to be mounted on the car's under carriage. So I mount the magnetic base on a garage hyraulic jack.
I was amazed that 1 finger push on my car under body while on Quick Jack with rubber pads, can deflect the 0.01mm resolution dial gauge.







Below is a short clip video, pay attention to the propeller shaft tube near the flex coupling.
Observe that at low revolution the shaft does seems shaky and at faster revolution it become smooth.
I still can't figure out the mathematics behind this, maybe Mr. BMW can explain.
I do yacht's propeller shaft alignment often, but we use a rigid shaft and flange system. No U joint and flex coupling. Only the engine and tranny mount is the semi flexible ones because it has rubber.
If at a low revolution the yachts's propeller ( real 4 blades propeller) shaft wiggle like my car shaft , at higher revolution surely it will be an earthquake equivalent

When watching the video, use that welded line as marker to see shaft wiggle a bit.... against the shiny heat shield of tunnel.






===============================================


I basically "dyno" my car , doing 200 KM/H on jack stand at home and without the wheels installed. Here by accident I discovered my 4 rubber exhaust mounts seems to transmit exhaust vibration a bit more than it should.
Lacking of wind noise worth 200KM/H or 122 MPH does help to hear other mechanicals on the car


.



Wanna see exhaust pipe expanding due to heat ?



I also looked at the possibility of the short CV joint shaft from DIFF to wheels shaking. All good.


I even measured all my tires out of round ( run-out ) spec.




So what actually caused my unique vibration ?
Symptom :
AA. Unique vibration starting at 140 KM/H / 86 MPH and getting stronger at 160 KM/H / 100 MPH or more.
BB. Unfortunately I need to find black tarmac and smooth one and can't use concrete highway for this test, as concrete road mask this unique vibration.
CC. The unique vibration is something like when you open your window a bit at high speed, that throbbing bop-bop-bop sensation. It is not out of balance wheel vibration with shaky steering wheel...nope.
DD. The unique vibration can get worse when I am accelerating. This is where engine and trans mount was responsible, only for DD. This represent about 20% of the overall issue.
AA to CC was from a different cause.


So what were the other causes ?
01. My right rear tire, has radial force variation at 110 - 130 Nm. Limit is 50 Nm or there about. Only Hunter Road Force balancing machine can read this value.
Believe it or not , this special balancing machine is so hard to find in my city or country. Tire shop don't buy them, too much a hassle and expensive , as fast tire changer machine must be purchased too,
to move around the tire on the rim/wheel. This radial force variation represent about 40% of the issue.


NOTE : I never realized I had this unique vibration issue, until I used this car for a road trip Jakarta-Bali-Jakarta end of 2020 early 2021 and for the 700KM ish of highway, there are some with smooth black tarmac and most importantly doing
140 - 160 KM/H constant was do-able at some low traffic areas. So I have lots of butt dyno time to feel the unique vibration. Imagine, 130Nm hardness say at 20-30 degrees from a round tire of 360 degrees.
Its like jumping jack sensation, therefore I described it as that wind throbbing noise of small opening window, but without the noise... but I felt the pulsation. I call it unique vibration, because I never experienced a tire with such bad road force variation and a branded tire while at it. Spain made Michelin Pilot Sport 4 ( not 4S ). 18" 255/40. I looked at the month and it was made in winter. Maybe poor temperature control or the workers had too much Fiesta with Tapas and booze.


02. What was the last cause, the other 40% ?
This was pure my dumb-azz mistake for not verifying first before the install. It was the rear wheel spacer, 5mm.
Because to clear the front brake caliper : https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w...ket-wheel.html
I needed 5mm spacer. My new BBS CH-R wheel's spoke even at ET47 ( 1mm extra ) which MB original is ET48, was not designed curved out enough to clear MB's front Brembo brake caliper standard to my E400.
So after a while with new BBS CH-R wheel installed, I got itchy handed and decided that to make equal with the front wheel track width, the rear wheel I then installed the 5mm spacers too.
Big mistake !!! because I never measured properly what balance of protrusion goes to the rear BBS CH-R, like I did with the front one.

The centering bore of REAR bearing hub protrusion is not as much as the front.









So, that was the whole story................ lesson learnt.

Happy reading the NVH materials....

 

so this whole 300 giant picture thread is because you have some cheapass ghetto oversized wheels that weren't properly adapted? yeeesh.

 

Nope my man, it was because my E400 comes standard with the upgraded front big brake calipers by Brembo and the German BBS engineers probably did not upgrade their
database to reflect this. They probably assumed all W212 have the standard smaller calipers, probably they are correct until 2014 facelift. Even BBS simulators reccomended this size with E400 as the data input... LOL.



18" , ET48 by 8.5J front and ET54 by 9J rear is by MB, made by Ronald.
My BBS CH-R wheels are all equal 8.5J ET47 , also 18".
Standard E400 get the staggered wheels, rear being 265/35 - 18" and front get 245/40 - 18".
I dont like such "thin" rear wheel for comfort reason. So I chose 255/40-18 instead to get 9mm taller side walls for rear and front stay the same 245/40-18 tire size.



MB got Ronald to make the special AMG 18" with more clearance for big front caliper, albeit ET48 its spoke curved out more by 4mm at where the caliper will be, compared to typical wheel of ET48.
By right, BBS CH-R ET47 if it were used on smaller brake caliper, will have 1mm extra clearance.

I am too old for Ghetto thingy..., besides a 4 door sedan must remain "calm" looking.

 

W212 4-matic. Vibration when moving and turning the steering wheel....... It's the clutches inside the planetary inside the transfer case. This is really common on high mileage 4-matic cars. Part number 2212708604. One thing you have to keep in mind is that the early models suffered from proper lubrication due to the way they designed the oil supply to the rear.