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Well, as I said, with no independent agency who would tell you, we need to use the info we have.
So your source says you can run on detergents in your crankcase just fine?
Ask them is adding washing powder instead oil change is acceptable solution?
Additives are formulated to last the usable life of the oil, which for Mobil One is 10k miles or with extended life 15k miles, they say. truly they make it most of the way.
Last edited by pierrejoliat; 09-08-2022 at 08:44 AM.
Note to self. New oil is dangerous, only add oil with 6k of use. Remove and replace at 6001 miles as now there’s not enough. So are we working on averages or are you really telling this forum that new oil is bad….
are you saying that the metal internals are effected by being clean? Are you saying new oil is abrasive. Really really interested in why blackstone labs would educate anyone to think this hooey. Oh right, nowhere does blackstone labs say new oil is dangerous. Their job is to replace your spend on new oil with spends on tests showing you can use your oil longer, saving your money for them.
I’m a fan of short oci. I’m not a fan of turbo burned black sticky oil that leaves behind residues. Every engine has been spotless inside and I’ve never caused an engine issue.
Id love to see the data on how many people ruin cars by having long oil changes vs short. I would guess more than 99.9 percent of all oil issues are due to longer than normal oil changes. Cars purchased used that followed long oci, are dirty, and noisey and indicative of owners that squeeze every last drop of use of a part before replacing, often driving around with creaking broken parts “that still work”. Never ever buy a car from this type….it will be “the best” “still working” flawless “for its age” or “has character”
This great thread was ruined by talk of Diesel engines which have zero to do with this conversation. ZERO. Perhaps we should talk about two stroke engines with an oil mix…smh I also don’t see psi or temp related data from blackstone presented, nor anything relevant to the educated statement and data.
So, like any relative conversation, let’s present new appropriate data that is relevant to the data op presented.
blackstone can not observe that certain oils have more consumption and use in my engine. They would not know how the oil is used in the car either. They can only observe the current qualities of the oil and perhaps worn metals from the engine. A lab can only tell you what they know, not what they don’t.
back to the tests and the real useful data.
for me I saw in terms of consumption, greatest to least, M1, Lm with mos or ceratec, motul xcess. Motul lasts the longest for me and that’s without mos on top. LM is a quiet oil but ultimately only lasted slightly better than M1. Seeing this makes me interested…
Oil testing is a useful tool, it was first introduced to the industrial market to insure the health of large expensive engines to determine their overall health, it was an important and useful asset, especially for engines holding huge amounts of oil and the expense of replacing it. Also the danger of spitting metals into the engine needed to befound quickly before it took out the whole engine. Many large dozers, Pans, excavators run five or more gallons in the sump, so it was costly to replace to early just as it was catastrophic to replace late, rebuilds are not cheap. As a general check of small engine health it is also useful, but when one is changing 6 quarts every 5k miles, less so I believe. Oil changes and oil choices are like tires and tire pressures, everyone has an opinion and in this case no-one is really wrong. Is changing your oil at 5k miles excessive, maybe, Is changing your oil at 15k dangerous, maybe. I think we all agree oil need to be changed when it has reached it usable lifespan. 5k?, 10k? 15k? For me, the testing cost is more than 50% of the replacement cost, no-brainer, but for some with much larger oil sumps, it may well be worth testing instead of changing to reduce costs and offer peace of mind.
DFW, 30 posts
Last edited by pierrejoliat; 09-08-2022 at 09:05 AM.
Oil testing is a useful tool, it was first introduced to the industrial market to insure the health of large expensive engines to determine their overall health, it was an important and useful asset, especially for engines holding huge amounts of oil and the expense of replacing it. Also the danger of spitting metals into the engine needed to befound quickly before it took out the whole engine. Many large dozers, Pans, excavators run five or more gallons in the sump, so it was costly to replace to early just as it was catastrophic to replace late, rebuilds are not cheap. As a general check of small engine health it is also useful, but when one is changing 6 quarts every 5k miles, less so I believe. Oil changes and oil choices are like tires and tire pressures, everyone has an opinion and in this case no-one is really wrong. Is changing your oil at 5k miles excessive, maybe, Is changing your oil at 15k dangerous, maybe. I think we all agree oil need to be changed when it has reached it usable lifespan. 5k?, 10k? 15k? For me, the testing cost is more than 50% of the replacement cost, no-brainer, but for some with much larger oil sumps, it may well be worth testing instead of changing to reduce costs and offer peace of mind.
DFW, 30 posts
Popcorn is always needed when talking oil. Thats why its so important when having a conversation about data details, others should not bring their own science in, but start their own threads or address the details of thread they have joined. PLENTY of Blackstone reporting out there. Decades of information as stated. This is the first I've seen on this forum with this data presented by op. So we should address this data vs interjecting our own different data sets. Its hilariously frustrating when people with inordinate amounts of money can not read, comprehend or address simple sentences. These typically read like this...."Do you want an orange?, well no I don't like apples and my shoes are tight, I hate Nike and there is an independent company on the internet that disassembles shoes and they will tell you why Reebok is better"
Great points above. The truth is that those companies use the labs to save on maintenance AND more importantly to understand the life of the machines and true maintenance intervals and costs. It is not to save 25 dollars per maintenance interval. I think most importantly you stated, "costly vs catastrophic. The oil is NOT costly for any vehicle when we are talking about ten quarts but the engine is costlwhen talking ten to 100 grand. NONE of the industrial companies would gamble on a longer interval without those tests but ALL of them would be willing to change the oil more frequently if money were not an option which underscores testing is not about NEW oil, but OLD and cost saving vs potential damage from frequency. So lets forget about Blackstones ability to save costs and instead address the data above. Like I said, Im interested because I liked LM better than M1 but perhaps I did not see the whole picture or had another issue effecting my vision " I replaced check valves and tensioners in my car so that could be the variable that made me think differently.
Yes, indeed... 30(+) posts in this obsessive topic, not to mention dozens of threads on exactly the same topic that have come before it on this forum.
My father had two US engineering patents in his name for hydraulically operated machines. So, you would think he understood lubricants. Yet, he never changed oil in his cars. Add oil, yes, change, no. What's an oil filter?
My first car was his hand-me-down '63 Ford Galaxie 500, with about 50,000 miles on the odo, IIRC. I drove it 3 years, before dad sold it for a car with better gas mileage (new, 1970 Plymouth Duster). I drove it to college four years... no oil changes here, either (not my car).
I started changing oil with my first car, a 1973 Plymouth Sebring, on the 5K interval recommended at the time, or when I got around to it thereafter.
Sharing oil change story............... where Lab Test for oil will matter and is cheap.
I am familiar with yachts engine oil change, the older 200 BAR non-common rail MAN V8 to V12 unto 1200HP usually 26 - 36 liters or so.
In 2004 my client assigned me to take a look at a used Japanase RORO ferry of 96 meters long, 300+ feet.
The twin input single output gearbox. On the left is a Singapore based engineer familiar with this commercial Daihatsu marine engines. I hired him for the inspection. I am blind on this kind of engines.
It uses a unique Daihatsu 800HP x 2 into 1 single gearbox. So total 800HP x 4, because this is a twin propulsion system
The maximum RPM of this engine is quite low, 600 RPM. It can burn those stupid sticky dirty fuel oil, with assistance of a heater.
Her engines was 80,000 hours already at that time and is HEALTHY ...insane. She was nearly 18 years old as I remembered.
Anyway, I have no clue on commercial ship type engines, but my client insisted that I go to Japan and be his eyes and ears, so to speak.
Fast forward, my client bought the ship and I assisted in preparing for her voyage to Jakarta.
As usual on yachts, I always do oil change first for such a long trip ( Singapore-Jakarta ), more so Japan-Jakarta which is like 5x further.
So I told the shipyard, quote me the oil quantity and price.
The moment the quotation came, I nearly fell off my chair. 2,000 liters of engine oil ( 500+ US Gallons ) !!!!
I asked, how in the hel-l each engine can have a crankcase fitting 500 liters of engine oil ?
Them Japanese engineers laughed at me.
Little did I know that this 16+ hours a day RORO ferry uses special oil reservoir & circulation system and special oil filter system.
Since oil change on engine is let say per 300 hours, that is too fast ( 300/16 = every 19 days ) and time consuming, they have special interval where for 1 year these 2,000 liters of engine oil will
be serving those 4 engines. Filtered, circulated, measured. So oil change only once a year.
I have seen 150 feet Mega Yachts with equal horsepower ( 2 engines ) and oil change system and 200 liter of dirty oil reservoir, but its not a circulation type.
Sharing oil change story............... where Lab Test for oil will matter and is cheap.
I am familiar with yachts engine oil change, the older 200 BAR non-common rail MAN V8 to V12 unto 1200HP usually 26 - 36 liters or so.
In 2004 my client assigned me to take a look at a used Japanase RORO ferry of 96 meters long, 300+ feet.
The twin input single output gearbox. On the left is a Singapore based engineer familiar with this commercial Daihatsu marine engines. I hired him for the inspection. I am blind on this kind of engines.
It uses a unique Daihatsu 800HP x 2 into 1 single gearbox. So total 800HP x 4, because this is a twin propulsion system
The maximum RPM of this engine is quite low, 600 RPM. It can burn those stupid sticky dirty fuel oil, with assistance of a heater.
Her engines was 80,000 hours already at that time and is HEALTHY ...insane. She was nearly 18 years old as I remembered.
Anyway, I have no clue on commercial ship type engines, but my client insisted that I go to Japan and be his eyes and ears, so to speak.
Fast forward, my client bought the ship and I assisted in preparing for her voyage to Jakarta.
As usual on yachts, I always do oil change first for such a long trip ( Singapore-Jakarta ), more so Japan-Jakarta which is like 5x further.
So I told the shipyard, quote me the oil quantity and price.
The moment the quotation came, I nearly fell off my chair. 2,000 liters of engine oil ( 500+ US Gallons ) !!!!
I asked, how in the hel-l each engine can have a crankcase fitting 500 liters of engine oil ?
Them Japanese engineers laughed at me.
Little did I know that this 16+ hours a day RORO ferry uses special oil reservoir & circulation system and special oil filter system.
Since oil change on engine is let say per 300 hours, that is too fast ( 300/16 = every 19 days ) and time consuming, they have special interval where for 1 year these 2,000 liters of engine oil will
be serving those 4 engines. Filtered, circulated, measured. So oil change only once a year.
I have seen 150 feet Mega Yachts with equal horsepower ( 2 engines ) and oil change system and 200 liter of dirty oil reservoir, but its not a circulation type.
What was the filtering mechanism maintenance in that system. Perhaps we fill our trunks with another hundred gallons of oil. Somehow we need to make the equation work. But for ten liters of oil that sits in the working engine one hundred percent of the time…..nope
2000 liters for 3200 horsepower or 1600? So for my car, I would need 440-880 liters of oil for the same oil cooling per hp produced…. Hmmm I bet if I used that amount of oil, I could feel confident in changing my oil once a year… don’t worry, a lesser powered 200hp car will only need 320 liters per oil change. Fortunately cars are not boats.
remember, this thread was not about oci….keep it on topic op. Haha
read my math wrong the first time… sry
Last edited by Baltistyle; 09-08-2022 at 10:47 AM.
Talking about cheap service, I still have generators who do not have oil filters.
The oil change intervals in such case are 50hr.
I think you can do it on your MB as well. Having cheap oil, you save on filter.
Talking about cheap service, I still have generators who do not have oil filters.
The oil change intervals in such case are 50hr.
I think you can do it on your MB as well. Having cheap oil, you save on filter.
now we are talking. 50hrs x 60mph. 3000 mile oil change!
My engine oil change is 200 hours or 5,000KM or max 1 year. However, due to much short drive this 2022 and up, I am cutting down to 9 months max.
The 5,000KM can be 6,000KM if long distance use.
We can reset the engine hours on the instrument cluster, but once battery removed its gone ...DAMN
In the city, my average speed been 20 to 21 KM/H, yep that bad.... so engine hours and maximum duration the oil kept in crankcase is priority.
2019 my daughter still goes to school locally, early 2021 she went abroad.
I told my driver to use my car every day at least once. 3 cars to rotate for use. E400 0il change twice a year is possible.
My daughter schooling morning drop her at school and driver comes home, worth 60KM. Afternoon pick her up and come home and tution a few times a week. 120KM a day for her minimum.
2020 and 2021 I went to Bali, approx 3,000KM trip return with 500ish KM local Bali use. So mileage was decent. This year sucks......
Oct 2019 oil change, near 200 hours. At 19,794. In my logbook this is written as 20,000KM.
Since my daughter was the main user, the way to her school 65% is highway, hence 24KM/H average is do-able. Damn how lame that is 14.9 miles per hour average.
Bali trip end of 2020 and came back to Jakarta early 2021. Only 39 KM/H average or 24.2 MPH, because only 1500KM was highway and 60% of it is packed, so can't do fast for long period.
This is when mileage is the oil change reason.
Oil filter after 6,182KM of use. This is the 6th Dec 2021 oil change at 34,580 KM
My camera calendar is Day-Month-Year, common outside USA or rest of the world.
The LM oil production batch in this thread is Aug 2021
When I am done with my LED BAR this weekend, there already waiting Mobil 1 OW40, year 2022 batch.
I don't want to use LM on my engine, seeing the low oil pressure at idle after only approx 113C oil temperature ( coolant 103.9C )
Before I remove the LM, I will do a test again for data sake. Slowly raising RPM and this time with VIDEO logging the 2 stage oil valve activation.
So we all can see at what point the oil valve is de-activated ( 10% PWM) and engine oil pressure should rise.
I am curious, how will MB oil valve algo works after I pushed coolant to 103C.
By logic, if the computer saw very high coolant temp, I think even before 3,530 RPM it may either de-activate the oil pump valve or perhaps do 40-50% PWM .. its oil performance table
I think may compensate predicted vicosity drop...maybe.
I would also do the same test for the new zero KM Mobil 1. So new vs new oil pressure data will be available for you all petrol head...
So, I tested for the last time today, the Liquid Moly.
I decided to read oil temperature, for data sake.
Rigging for the test.....
Test 1. I did 2 test.
Video file LM 1A and LM 1B represent engine ON duration, deduct 30 seconds for preparartion before and after. So approx 34 minutes is the engine running.
LM = Liquid Moly
2nd test. Shorter. Approx 45 minutes after test 1.
To refresh readers on the Duty Cyle ( PWM ) of the oil valve.
10% means valve is not active, aka open oil path, no regulation....... full power/flow.
90% means valve is active, closing the oil path maximum closing, it is regulating to reduce oil pressure. How many % diameter restriction compared to full power...? I don't know.
=========================
This 2K and 2.5K RPM test is the weird part.
By pump affinity law https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/a...aws-d_408.html a 600 RPM vs 2,000 RPM oil pump, both choked/regulated at 90% duty cycle, at 2,000 RPM of 300% faster speed,
the said pump would produce in excess of 300% more flow. The pressure should not be stable but LOW at 27 psi. Will compare tomorrow with virgin zero KM old Mobil 1.
=======================
My cousin wants the 2 hour old LM, so no need to send to Bali.
Latest one has special barcode and can scan it for genuine check.
This inner foam-aluminum foil cap is new for me. I never seen this type in 2019. Its nice to open up, spiral cut.
Asia will get Singapore made M1 for sure.
We clearly see how LM idle pressure drops with temperature 20psi @60C @600rpm
10psi @100C @600rpm
> You know about the PWM pressure regulation and the piston sprayers... Do you think lack of oil over cylinder walls is incresing blow-by through dry rings?
> Would measuring crankcase blow-by pressure vs. oil sprayers On/Off be interesting to correlate?
Makes me wonder how 10W40 would perform under the same conditions, haven't seen those security lids yet here, but I haven't bought oil since March. I always do wonder to myself quietly what the big draw to zero weight oils is...
More data guys.
New findings on how the ECM does its oil pressure strategy.
The MID RPM of the said Liqui Moly being significantly lower oil pressure than the said Mobil 1 , is not correct. My apology.
Here is why..........
Now........ if car is stationary and accelerator pedal is depressed slowly aka throttle opening is gentle, mechanically I do not know how it is done other than there is probably a mechanical
oil pressure regulator somewhere or maybe integrated on the oil valve itself.............. the ECM will try to control the oil pressure to approx 27 psi, until RPM hit 3,530 up, full 55psi ish get unleashed.
If one is more aggresive on the accelerator pedal aka throttle opening, albeit in PARK and car is stationary, the ECM will anticipate and will provide higher oil pressure well before 3,530 RPM reached.
My Fluke is slow, so I can not see exactly at what duty cycle is the higher oil pressure achieved ? Is it 10% or 20%ish or 30%ish ?
MOBIL 1 0W40 gold bottle - zero KM.
Video is below to see in real time what I have explained above. Also based on my engine M276.820, the ECM has safeRPM control strategy for stationary too.
Cali wrote : > You know about the PWM pressure regulation and the piston sprayers...
Do you think lack of oil over cylinder walls is incresing blow-by through dry rings?
> Would measuring crankcase blow-by pressure vs. oil sprayers On/Off be interesting to correlate?
Once we apply enough throttle , the oil pressure restriction even under 3,530 RPM is by-passed by the ECM and I am sure the oil sprayer will kick into action.
In summary : Drive like me, throttle heavy foot = safer
===========
NOTE 1 :
The K thermocouple I am using for the engine oil temp sensing has a loose connection at the yellow connector internally, hence I use black electrical tape to keep it steady.
This could be also part of the reason I can not get Mobil 1 to hit 100C or more, before the safeRPM control strategy took over.
I have 1 channel on the Banks thermocouple module which I can divert to use for engine oil temperature, but I need to first get a suitable K thermocouple for long term hot oil submersion and
will need to custom fabricate oil level pipe plug...sort of. If I do so, the monitoring of the engine oil temp would be permanent.
The highest coolant temp I hit was 106C, but the oil temp gauge was probably was incorrect because only 84.3C and oil pressure is also down to 10ish PSI like LM.
The highest oil temp reading I got was only 96.5C during test 1 after 23 minutes engine running and coolant was at 98C. This is more logical, the oil temp wise.
During test 2, I abuse the engine oil more with Mobil 1 compared to LM via longer duration of ECM allowed 4,200 RPM and I kept getting RPM reduction by ECM like 5 times.
During LM test, once the ECM apply RPM reduction stategy one time, I did not push more.
I gues I was fooled by the oil temp reading which was too "cool" during M1 test.
Overall, Mobil 1 still has slight better oil pressure at idle and I have used M1 since 1983 in my MK2 Supra, but it was a 0W30 and boy over the best of Castrol of the day, it was night and day at top speed.
I gain like 10KM/H. I beleived those days 20W50 was the norm for my Castrol RS. I recalled it was called RS.
====================
As to what or where is the mechanicsm for regulate oil pressure to approx 27psi until 3,530RPM will be good to know.
The oil valve duty cycle never changed, 85 - 88% ish during those stable 27psi, this is what baffled me.
I have thought about it, but Banks does not have sensor that small value.
I believe M276.820 crankcase pressure is very low. The sensor also must be able to read vacuum too just in case.
However, I can custom configure the Banks module to use 3rd party 5Volt sensor. Page 33 https://s3.amazonaws.com/assets.bank..._B_Bus_web.pdf
It is an option I still open to as 3rd data logging capability expansion for next year. Now I am on my 2nd expansion.
============
I am still trying to find where is best to place engine oil temperature sensor, K thermocouple wire type.
I am worried using dipstick/submersion method is not so accurate or very slow.
Best sensing spot would be before engine oil cooler....
Maybe when I remove my aftercooler to do tranny's torque converter oil draining ( must spin crankshaft ), I clamp a K thermocouple to the current oil pressure adapter.
In a healthy engine, marginally excessive pressure when idling is normal. Getting the engine on higher revs will normally indicate a negative pressure i.e. vacuum. In all revs range the negative pressure should not exceed -5 mbar / -0,07 psi and the positive pressure 5 mbar / 0,07 psi respectively.
Master Tasos has just released a video today on the MB piston spray nozzles.... he is pissed at the failed sprays! Some are stuck open, some are stuck shut and a few are ok.
What's enlightening is now we know the low RPM oil pressure is not enough to open the 35Psi ball-on-spring pressure regulator.
The engine pistons only get sprayed above 35psi pump pressure when solenoid gets inactive at 10% duty cycle.
Viscosity > Pressure > RPM:
We've seen how oil viscosity difference translates into pressure diference.
Here we see that pressure difference translates into a difference in engine RPM to start spraying pistons in the full pressure mode.
W212AMG forum has stories of scored cylinders being common... I wonder if more non-stop oil spray could help prevent that ??
Enjoy!
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; 09-14-2022 at 09:23 PM.
Damn, I thought the oil pump description at the M276/M278 technical document regarding these oil jets is about the oil jet residing at the higher pressure channel/path , little did I know it uses some sort of spring and ball and set at 35 psi.
Any dirty oil can kill those oil jet.
Failed open also is bad, we loose pressure on the crankshaft bearing and whatever other region sharing the same oil path.
I found a video on this oil jet, but for MB diesel engine
The first video mentioned "rings were glued to the pistons with low compression and looked overheated" - Then he goes on to check that sprayers were not plugged up with dirt.
Tasos went on to measure each individual pressures and found a few smoking guns. Are you starting to see a possible patern emerge from clues? I'd say the restricted lube is helping to limit engine life even on low RPM engines.
😆
Some of the oil jet in Tasos video belongs to a 911 boxer engine by the shape of the block. Which model I dont know.
I did not follow 100% of the oil jet videos series.
I looked at the video archive of the test I did on the oil valve disconnected, to be at 40 psi... RPM need to be at 1,600 RPM at least.
I use 40 psi on assumption that 35psi is the opening spring pressure of the oil jet nozzle, so extra 5 is needed to truly open it up.
I think in MB case of M276/M278, the oil jet is a cooling jet and not a lubrication jet per se.
I know crankshaft rotating is like an oil scoop, its fat counterweight scoop oil and splash it towards the liner bore too.
Or maybe the con-rod has holes in them like below to use pressurized oil to spray the piston's bottom :
Also to remember that slight agressive throttle command 30% will de-activate the oil valve well below 3,530 RPM and higher oil pressure will be available and hence the oil jet will be jetting out oil.
So its kind of very dynamic oil pressure management created by MB. Safe fuel....yes. Kill engine earlier..not so
09-07-2022, 07:00 PM
truly they make it most of the way.
. Haha
?? 
