pierrejoliat

Not to worry, these cars are like that, all different through the model years, there are no less than 16 spring options also! Sounds like you need a couple cross members and Strut Rods though

S-Prihadi

If the alignment machine can't do Ackerman Toe Out On Turns or also known as TURNING ANGLE DIFFERENCE with automatic calculation, do it manually.


The measurement concept is simple :


and




From the Hunter video.


Mercedes stated : Toe-out angle with inner wheel steered through 20°
Above 1st image from Hunter, On a left turn, the inner wheel is the left wheel and its angle is indeed TOE-ing OUT. Outer wheel which is the right wheel is doing TOE-ing IN.
Since the machine set up is to read Toe-In and Toe-Out, any wheel departing outward of the car is called TOE-ing OUT and get the Minus (-) sign.
Any wheel heading into the car is called TOE-ing IN and get the Positive sign, or no sign at all which means positive.
So for 1st top image Left wheel being -19.83* degree ( decimal degree ) vs Right wheel being 18.60* degree, the result is read as : 19.83 + 18.60 = -1.23* degrees
This is how Mercedes wants us to calculate.






Mercedes stated : Toe-out angle with inner wheel steered through 20°
Above image from Hunter, On a RIGHT turn, the inner wheel is the RIGHT wheel and its angle is indeed TOE-ing OUT. Outer wheel which is the LEFT wheel is doing TOE-ing IN.
So for 2nd Hunter image Left wheel being 19.69* degree ( decimal degree ) vs Right wheel being -19.90* degree, the result is read as : -19.90 + 19.69 = -0.21* degrees



==

IGNORE THE VALUE AS SEEN BELOW WHEN AND IF YOU ARE TRYING TO WORK OUT HUNTER's FINAL RESULT OF THE VIDEO.
Hunter video editor did not use the exact same video material between the LEFT and RIGHT test value to the end result one. Its just an illustration.



Now lets imagine the values as per Hunter's video 1st and 2nd image while doing LEFT & RIGHT turn of 20* degree.... is my car. Does it falls within MB spec ?


My imaginary LEFT turn result = -1.23* degrees
My imaginary RIGHT turn result = -0.21* degrees
MB wants -1* 54' or -1.9* degrees and tolerance of +- 30' minutes or 0.5* degrees.

My imaginary car failed for both LEFT turn and RIGHT turn, as the acceptable values are to be : -1.4* degrees to -2.3" degrees.

MB wants to see the proper value because its calculated from the car track width.
If say my car track width is 1.8 meters, the tighter* turn ( *smaller radius ) the inner wheel has to do compared to outer wheel is quite a lot, is then to compensated by the
Ackerman Toe Out On Turns or Toe-out angle with inner wheel steered through 20° value MB have given us.

The easier translation is, MB wants the inner wheel to be higher angle by 1.9* degrees compared to the outer wheel while doing a 20 degrees turn.
Since MB knew how alignment machine shows steering angle as TOE In or Out and has Minus sign at the wheel doing the TOE Out , it described it in such a unique way

donny79

@S-Prihadi i got 1 last question for you, if I replace lower control arm #300 and ball joint #310 , will it fix the issue and put things back where they should be?

Left Coast Geek

if those being bent are the cause of the problem, yes, replacing them will fix it. I'd probably replace the bushings, too, assemblies 350 and 250.

S-Prihadi

Provided all other linked components are still OK, your issue now with camber being too negative for front, camber arm #300 and its ball joint #310 would be main culprit
and replacing them would bring the target camber to be more within spec.

On a side note........

Commonly under normal use, the one usually get worn out faster on our bad roads, on my friend's MB are the CASTER arm bushing #250 and most will replace complete CASTER arm #200
because the end ball joint is there.

Knowing Caster arm does effect Camber value too and vice versa, given enough mileage Caster & Camber arm including all bushings and ball joints get replaced at the same time by some owners.
These are consumables, albeit high mileage ones and road quality dependent. For my Jakarta roads, 80% chance, none of these 2 arms's bushings & the ball joints will last pass 50K miles miles or 80Kish KM of regular road use. Those mileage mentioned would be like 8-10 years old MBs.





I sure hope your wheel knuckle and strut overall are still okey.

S-Prihadi

Do us a favor. When you replaced both sides camber arm #300 and its ball joint #310, please mark them which one is Left or Right and measure
their actual lengths for the camber arm #300.

I seen some people who likes the STANCE look trying to push more negative rear camber up to -5 degree on W212 by bending-IN to shorten thetop side arm.
By doing so, the actual camber arm at the bottom got Pulled-OUT and hence more negative camber achieved.
They use hydraulic press to bend-IN the top side arm.
A mere 2mm shorter arm got the negative chamber increased by 3* degree approx.

In your case, there is a possibility your left camber arm #300 got bent in a PULLED-OUT manner or made longer, that is how your negative camber got increased.
W212 Camber arm is unique shape and has room to bend-out or pulled-out to be longer given the right angle and power of a bad luck impact.

Above image : Where I placed my inclinometer , that is the Camber Arm


Start at 9:15 minutes, that is a W212 rear top arm being bent-IN or made shorter by 2mm. Too bad the video is in Indonesian language.

I simply don't understand why the heck would one wants -5 degree rear camber. That is the target the owner wants for the COOL LOOK
I wonder when will that DIY BEND arm will cracked when driven hard

===========

This one is a PULLED-IN camber arm, also bent or getting more positive camber from an unfortunate pot hole encounter.
https://www.bmwfanatics.co.za/thread...ghtened.95714/

S-Prihadi

Donny,

I was googling around and I got a W204 with CASTER arm not visually detectable as worn out and bushing are not torn yet, but its bushing seems TIRED.
Mileage 49K miles. UK car.
My friend's same W204 done 70K KM when at 11 years old and the bushing of the CASTER arm is a goner with partial cracking on the rubber.

The Video guy, his front tire wear is opposite yours, he has outer side worn down, yours in inner side.
Just an example where visual inspection alone is not good enough for mild out of spec, but tires become the victim.
Too bad this guy does not check his car alignment often enough, perhaps if he did, he could save the tire and only replace the Caster Arms.
As I said, Caster arm is usually the one get worn out first, their bushing is bigger too, so their work load is higher.

Also too bad the alignment results before and after the Caster arm replacement are not available.

The video :

donny79

@S-Prihadi thank you I appreciate all your help, I’m going to start working on this within the next few days

donny79

What parts do I need to fix the rear?

Left Coast Geek

whats wrong with your rear? Per the PDF I posted, a W212.0 rear with code 677, the camber should be -1 deg 27 minutes, which is -1.45 degrees, plus/minus 30 arcminutes or 0.5 degrees.

So, -0.95 to -1.95 degrees.

S-Prihadi

1.9 degree rear camber is already at max limit, if front ones to be done, rear one best to do at the same time.

Donny,
see below : Item 250
https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w...ml#post8666782

donny79

@Left Coast Geek my rears at -1.9, I rather them have slightly more +

donny79

@S-Prihadi thank you again you been tremendous help

Left Coast Geek

if both rears are at the same -1.9, I'd wonder if its not worn bushings making it all sloppy, rather than bent control arms. Thing is the 4 control arms all come with the bushings already pressed in.

For your car, its... I've read somewhere with these mercedes 5-way multilink rears, if any arm is worn, they all are probably worn, and its best to replace 250, 350, 450, and 540 all together.

donny79

You think I’m better with new control arms or the K-Mac kit? I’ve had bad ball joints on other cars I know the ball joints not in bad shape I don’t feel no knocking or anything when I’m turning, I took front wheels off I can’t tell if lower control arm bent or not

Left Coast Geek

there are no ball joints in the rear end, there are 5 control arms (4 shown on the PDF I posted, there's another page I didn't save with the 5th big bottom one), and they are attached to the rear subframe, and the wheel spindle with embedded bushings. old worn bushings won't clunk or knock, they will just allow the rear wheels to shift angle out of compliance and make the handling a bit sloppy compared with new..

donny79

@Left Coast Geek where did you find that pdf file with the diagram and parts?

Left Coast Geek

I have the full WIS (Mercedes service information, $$$$ unless you get a sketchy bootleg), and the Mercedes Parts Information, which is a $75/year service for US customers.

S-Prihadi

If you like to track your car, I think K-Mac Kit make sense.
If you want back to OE spec and no headache, go OE.

donny79

I don’t track it, it just my daily… thank you again

K-Mac

REMEMBER REPLACING FACTORY ARMS / BUSHES ONLY RETURNS TO OEM SPECS (still having only basic Toe "directional" adjustment).

….With K-MAC not only are you replacing the highest wearing front and rear bushings but also RESTORING ONCE AGAIN FROM THE 90's FULL PRECISE CAMBER (AND CASTER) ADJUSTMENT !

Finally allowing "ongoing" adjustment - easily, accurately to resolve costly, premature excessive edge tire wear.

Situations re excess passenger side edge wear through high cambered roads or altered height through load carrying or lowering, fitting wide profile tires or just advantage of ongoing adjustability to cater for curb knock damage.


CAMBER ONLY KIT FOR FRONT $345 (BOTH SIDES).
Less cost then 1 hi-performance tire (and can install on car without need for arm removal).


Kevin



AUDI to VOLVO - K-MAC Experience Of Resolving OEM Suspension Shortcomings Since 1964 !

donny79

donny79

What you think about this? Worth it or no? Sorry I keep asking questions