Any comments on the alignment? 2012 E350 RWD with 80K miles. Lowered on H&R Springs. OEM 5-Spoke 18 AMG wheels and spacers. Items ticked in red are supposedly out of spec. Not sure why the target data for camber is so high? Thanks for any input.

 

the wheel geometry angles are best equilibrated around neutral positions.
Both camber and toe angles rely on the proper positioning to help maintain wheel contacts.

 

The document/software of the alignment machine Target Data is NOT ACCURATE for some, if based on your VIN , chassis type W212.059 and indeed a 677 suspension.

You need to verify your own data, because software database on some alignment machine CAN BE WRONG.


Lets go thru one by one.


Above in green circle and arrow :
This is what Mercedes call ROMESS angle. It is basically an inclinometer device reading the angle. Romess is the brand of the Inclinometer.
When MB designed the car and its ride height, the front suspension arm will have a "fixed" angle when at normal ride height.... as a result.
If the angle is out by much, that meant the arm could be bent or the ride height is no more as per specification because of other influence/s.
Adjustable air suspension also a factor I think, where when alignment is done, a certain fix ride height must be first achieved, otherwise all resulting values could be wrong.





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Your car a 212.059 with 677 suspension spec as per WIS is below



0.12 degree in German decimal system is written as 0,12 ( with a coma ). They will write One Hundred Dollars and Fifty Cents like this $100,50. USA will write $100.50.
Their One thousand is written as 1.000,00 USA will write 1,000.00. Just in case you do not know.
So the target data on your document is CORRECT for FRONT AXLE VEHICLE LEVEL, it is 0.12 degrees.
However, since you are on lowered spring, your values got messed up by A LOT. 3 over degrees over maximum allowance. Let see if you front Camber get effected or not.


Rear Axle Romess value

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Again the same as Front Romess value, your actual rear vehicle level ( Romess ) is out of whack, because of the lowering springs.


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Front CAMBER , CASTER, Track Diff Angle* ( *Ackermann ) and Toe


Lets do CAMBER, Front.




Let see what WIS spec is for your Front Camber


Based on its design, where the Romess value is 0.12 degree, the Front Camber will be -33 Degree Minutes. 1 degree has 60 minutes.
The unit in use for Camber is Degree Minutes, not Decimal Degree where if -33 Degree Minutes in Decimal Degree is 33/60 = 0.55 Decimal Degree.
Do not get confused here, often people assumed -33' as -0.33 Decimal Degree....it is not.
So the alignment print out document you have, for Front Camber value is actually wrong . This means the machine database is wrong to show -0* 43'' +- 22'.
Hhhmmm....the data input person probably got confused at Hunter. Let calculate the range : lowest is -0* 21' , highest is -1* 05'
WinAlign software is by Hunter. https://www.hunter.com/media-center/...-now-shipping/

The correct value should be as per WIS. -33' degree minutes and allowance of +- 21' degree minutes.
Let calculate the range : lowest is -0* 12' , highest is -0* 54'

Your car is showing for Front Left Camber at -0* 51' and for Front Right Camber -0* 39' which actually is within spec, but borderline for Front Left Camber as 3' more degree minutes is maximum already.

The WIS also have allowance for maximum difference between Front Left vs Front Right Camber, which is only 24' (degree minutes.)
Your Front Camber Left and Right difference is OK, at 12' ( degree minutes).

If you see that any values of Camber or Caster, will be effected by ride height or the Romess/Inclinometer. It is what it is, suspension geometry is all linked.
Change one value, other values will shift too.


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Your car alignment spec is 100% similar to mine.
What I never bothered to check is the Ackermann angle or Toe Out Angle at 20 degrees steering turn.
My regular shop Hunter machine software version does not have the automated guided Ackermann test, but I can request them to do it manually.




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Back to your car.......... now Front CASTER. Target is so wrong at 7* 35' ...I wonder why.



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I expected the lowered spring to upset the CAMBER more than CASTER. So I thought.
But your Front CASTER value is so out of whack at 7* 32' for Left and 7* 41' for Right, where they are to be 6* 57' with allowance +-30'.
So minimum and maximum limit for Front Caster are : 6* 27' to 7* 27' , both L & R front Caster of your car are out of spec.

What does Caster do ?
One thing for sure, our standard 677 suspension with factory geometry is a pleasant 120MPH plus ......straight line cruiser. Its very elegant and safe the way it goes straight even on bad roads.
Straight steering self recovery after a U turn is also fantastic.


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Rear Camber.
How the hell did the alignment machine gave your car an AMG CLS W218.9 aggressive camber as target ?




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Either your spring is not sitting well, I do not know which side, your arm or its bushings or both are not healthy . Because the difference between L and R is way too much by almost 1 degree.

Since you are on lowering springs, I personally have no experience the direction of the whacky values it will produce.



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I am attaching WIS for all of the alignment values for you to verify yourself and keep track which values your car is supposed to be using, this is practice for you.
The massive amount of data on the WIS,explains why Hunter could get it wrong ...during data input.
Funny if no one in the alignment shop detected the error in their Hunter database vs MB WIS, for a car already produced since 2009.
MB WIS is the actual data all alignment machine started with, so we must trust it as the most accurate. After all MB designed the car suspension, not an alignment machine company.


Happy learning...........

 

Camber - FRONT attached


Sample of older software.
The values are basically ALL correct, only 1' to 3' degree minute difference to WIS.
I screen captured this a long time ago, probably from this forum too.
I am checking its accuracy today

 

@S-Prihadi Thanks... I need to digest this detailed information you provided and then talk to my service tech @ the Mercedes Dealership that did the alignment.

 

Here is something you must understand for ALIGNMENT.
They only measure your car suspension + steering values.
They can only ADJUST 2 parameters, Front and Rear Toe, that is it.

Based on Mercedes parts and not aftermarket :

For FRONT Caster and Camber, there is a primitive adjustment using Correction Bolt with a fixed value and not variable value.

Rear camber can not be adjusted, it can only be repaired by replacing the worn out components ( bushings ) , where some bushings are not sold separately with the arm...example Camber Arm.
Example 5 suspension arms for the rear, only the spring arm can have both its bushing replaced and the arm itself no need to buy new one.
The thrust arm which has 1 bushing at the wheel carrier and one bushing in its own arm, must be replaced as a complete arm ( with 1 bushing installed on it, for the car/chassis side ).
The other 3 arms the bushings are not sold separately, you need to replace all the arms. Usually Camber arms goes kapoot first.

Albeit MB Hunter software has wrong data for your car variant, technically it does not do any harm for measurement process of your car.
Good thing is that they have Romess device to measure the car ride height via angles at the front arm and rear drive shaft. Not many alignment machine has this option, it is costly.

However, if the Target data is wrong to begin with, when you need to make correction for Front Caster , you will go no where with such flawed target data.
Again, I can't comment on your actual caster value being so way off, because you are using lowering springs.
I mean, to what degree is your front caster being so out of spec if purely based on lowering springs ? What other front suspension components already worn out to contribute to that too ??

So all you can do now is to inform your MB dealer that their database is wrong.
But with lowering springs, what is your car actual proper alignment values should be ..... I do not know too.
One thing for sure, it is difficult for your car to be able to achieve 100% proper correct alignment values ( for some parameters ) when and if it is on lowered springs.




So, the Romess device is indeed VERY GOOD !!! It can detect the 35mm lowered springs with such precision.





This condition is your own doing, so take note of that. The alarming out of spec value is your own risk.



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If the next 15,000 miles you may be seeing poor or un-even tire wear and whatever negative effect the 35mm lowered springs will create, there is nothing you can do.
As for handling, being lower is always good from gravity stand point , but that does not guarantee your other suspension components will be able to perform its full best due to
geometry change. Our alignment is static, the actual work will be dynamic alignment when car is in use and doing high speed run or cornering or hitting bumps.
The engineers calculated all the hardness of the bushings and overall geometry and yada yada for comfort and performance based on suspension travel up to X centimeters.


One more advice. Pretty looking lowered cars does not guarantee better actual overall handling and comfort, for road use car I mean.
When you do any MOD, make sure it is also good mechanically and not only cosmetic/look.

If you want better handling, Bilstein B4 at the front and B6 at the rear and super sticky tires will do much good with improved handling while maintaining OE comfort.
No need super expensive KW or Bilstein coil over....unless you like tracking your car often.

 

When it is all said and done it comes back to the basics….

EX FACTORY - THERE IS NO LONGER FRONT CAMBER & CASTER OR REAR CAMBER !

THE OFTEN QUOTED REASSURING “FULL FRONT & REAR ‘4’ WHEEL ALIGNMENT” IS NOW ONLY TOE “DIRECTIONAL” ADJUSTMENT !

YET CAMBER IS ESSENTIAL TO ALLOW ADJUSTMENT / CHANGE - TO SPREAD LOAD MORE EVENLY.

Deletion is new car industry’s best kept secret. All to do with cost cutting and “EVER INCREASING SPEED” OF NEW CAR ASSEMBLY LINES - STOPPING TO ADJUST IS NO LONGER AN OPTION !

With CAMBER and CASTER now preset to suit “showroom height” conditions. THE ONUS IS PUT BACK ONTO OWNERS TO PREMATURELY FUND NEW TIRES !

NO ONGOING ADJUSTMENT TO CATER FOR - Excess edge wear or passengers side wear through high cambered roads. Full passenger loads. Lowering center of gravity to reduce roll / safer handling. Fitting wide profile tires - or just having the ability to compensate for curb knocks.

WE SAW THE NEED THEREFORE AND MANUFACTURE - Front and Rear BOLT-ON kits. Purposely designed so no requirement for special tools or need for arm removal.

SEE SPOILER






AUDI to VOLVO - K-MAC Experience Of Resolving OEM Suspension Shortcomings Since 1964 !