Volvo S90 vs. E300 (where's the beef?)
12-29-2016, 03:34 AM
#26
Member
Thread Starter
Instead of the S90, I was attracted to the Volvo V90.
Like the OP I'm contemplating to retire in the next year or two and limit my motoring needs to a single vehicle. The wagon style of the V90 is very attractive and provides great utility whilst still getting better FE than a SUV.
Like the OP I'm contemplating to retire in the next year or two and limit my motoring needs to a single vehicle. The wagon style of the V90 is very attractive and provides great utility whilst still getting better FE than a SUV.
We have a Benz sedan, but are also about to become VW Sportwagen TDI refugees. This is our second TDI Sportwagen, that makes regular trips from LA to the Monterey/Carmel area and Sonoma county. Admittedly the VW is slightly agro, but what a complete design success for its price.
If we have one car, we hope to drive with a wagon, too.
Several sales people suggest getting an SUV or Crossover when we talk a wagon with them. There is a very simple question to ask them. If you had to be a military pilot, would you rather fly a fighter or a transport? They invariably answer fighter. Not quite the same, but you get my point. I want something that will stop and turn reasonably well and is more economical to operate.
Last edited by Mike__S; 12-29-2016 at 02:39 PM.
12-29-2016, 04:22 AM
#27
Member
Thread Starter
Thanks again for the additional comments from everyone! It is very helpful.
Note at this point I am still not especially leaning towards the S90, but my wife is. All other considerations aside, she is not one to leave 10 large on the table. She also has non-existent technical grasp of machinery of any kind. I must turn to you all as a sounding board! Non-the-less, I intend that both cars should have a fair representation. On a Mercedes site, someone must fight the S90 corner, eh?
To this end, I am not quite sure what has been experienced in the suspension department based on the differing comments about the S90 vs. E300 handling. Do not forget that the E 300 has three different suspension options. The vast majority of cars sitting at the dealerships sport suspension with a lower ride height and fairly aggressive three position dampers. Nice, tight autobahn suspension. Except I will not be driving on the autobahn.
There is also the option of a 'normal' three way damper position, but so far I think all the cars are ordered sports by the dealerships so far. It seems to be the in thing when selling cars these days to have sport suspension. The Audi A6 suffers the same fate these days. Not complaining, just making the observation.
Then, there is the E300 Luxury option that has the "Airmatic" suspension which has a wide range adjustability. Very few cars have this option, but I have driven one, twice. I found the standard S90 suspension roughly equivalent to the soft setting of the E 300 "Airmatic". It was still well controlled, but did have a great deal of compliance to it. Neither were 'too' soft, just not a sport type setup.
What I gather is most have driven the E300 Sport suspension and prefer it to the softer S90 suspension. However, I felt the optional dampers on the S90 can also be tightened up significantly, yet again I have not heard from anyone else who has played around with this adjustment. Note the 3 position setting drive mode of the S90 is identical with standard or optional dampers, but of course nothing happens with the damper in dynamic mode without the optional suspension. Only the throttle action is quicker, the steering heavier and the transmission shifts at higher rpm.
I think it is important for me to announce my sports car days are over and foremost I want a compliant, well controlled ride quality. I am 68 and have a fully arthritic back and sports damaged knees. We are considering the E300 fitted with "Airmatic" suspension. What I discovered is the S90 suspension compared favorably with this. I would agree the S90 does not compare favorably with the seemingly ubiquitous E300 "Sport" suspension, if that kind of lowered, tight ride quality is what a person desires. As we continue to get older, that is not going to cut it.
I have occasionally read in the US, UK and German press, as well as on this site that the S90 steering is vague and/or too light. Having driven both cars and earlier Mercedes models I can only observe that the light S90 steering is not bad, just very different. I also realize if you are not used to it, it will feel strange to the point of unacceptable.
I can tell you I have several friends who insist steering should feel tight in this way. To me this really is just an unnecessarily heavy feel. I do not particularly like it, nor feel it imparts any better steering qualities. In contrast, I find the S90 steering light and precise, much in the way I enjoyed Subaru WRX and early Porsche 911 steering. In this, we must say, to each his own. I have no complaints about the E300 Luxury steering feel either. I think the S90 also as a slower steering, something like 3 turns lock to lock, where the E300 is more like 2.6. I can understand complaints about the different feel. When my 2.8 turn WRX steering rack wore out, I put in a WRC 2.2 turn rack. You sneeze and you risk changing lanes! Again, different needs and intentions are involved.
My conclusion about the suspension merits are that the E300 "Airmatic" and the S90 optional dampers both meet my needs well, but for sportiness and/or adjustability the E300 obviously wins hands down. I would enjoy the extra features of "Airmatic", but it is not something critical to my purchase decision.
Like several have recommended, I am trying to come up with a way to get seat time in both cars.
Note at this point I am still not especially leaning towards the S90, but my wife is. All other considerations aside, she is not one to leave 10 large on the table. She also has non-existent technical grasp of machinery of any kind. I must turn to you all as a sounding board! Non-the-less, I intend that both cars should have a fair representation. On a Mercedes site, someone must fight the S90 corner, eh?
To this end, I am not quite sure what has been experienced in the suspension department based on the differing comments about the S90 vs. E300 handling. Do not forget that the E 300 has three different suspension options. The vast majority of cars sitting at the dealerships sport suspension with a lower ride height and fairly aggressive three position dampers. Nice, tight autobahn suspension. Except I will not be driving on the autobahn.
There is also the option of a 'normal' three way damper position, but so far I think all the cars are ordered sports by the dealerships so far. It seems to be the in thing when selling cars these days to have sport suspension. The Audi A6 suffers the same fate these days. Not complaining, just making the observation.
Then, there is the E300 Luxury option that has the "Airmatic" suspension which has a wide range adjustability. Very few cars have this option, but I have driven one, twice. I found the standard S90 suspension roughly equivalent to the soft setting of the E 300 "Airmatic". It was still well controlled, but did have a great deal of compliance to it. Neither were 'too' soft, just not a sport type setup.
What I gather is most have driven the E300 Sport suspension and prefer it to the softer S90 suspension. However, I felt the optional dampers on the S90 can also be tightened up significantly, yet again I have not heard from anyone else who has played around with this adjustment. Note the 3 position setting drive mode of the S90 is identical with standard or optional dampers, but of course nothing happens with the damper in dynamic mode without the optional suspension. Only the throttle action is quicker, the steering heavier and the transmission shifts at higher rpm.
I think it is important for me to announce my sports car days are over and foremost I want a compliant, well controlled ride quality. I am 68 and have a fully arthritic back and sports damaged knees. We are considering the E300 fitted with "Airmatic" suspension. What I discovered is the S90 suspension compared favorably with this. I would agree the S90 does not compare favorably with the seemingly ubiquitous E300 "Sport" suspension, if that kind of lowered, tight ride quality is what a person desires. As we continue to get older, that is not going to cut it.
I have occasionally read in the US, UK and German press, as well as on this site that the S90 steering is vague and/or too light. Having driven both cars and earlier Mercedes models I can only observe that the light S90 steering is not bad, just very different. I also realize if you are not used to it, it will feel strange to the point of unacceptable.
I can tell you I have several friends who insist steering should feel tight in this way. To me this really is just an unnecessarily heavy feel. I do not particularly like it, nor feel it imparts any better steering qualities. In contrast, I find the S90 steering light and precise, much in the way I enjoyed Subaru WRX and early Porsche 911 steering. In this, we must say, to each his own. I have no complaints about the E300 Luxury steering feel either. I think the S90 also as a slower steering, something like 3 turns lock to lock, where the E300 is more like 2.6. I can understand complaints about the different feel. When my 2.8 turn WRX steering rack wore out, I put in a WRC 2.2 turn rack. You sneeze and you risk changing lanes! Again, different needs and intentions are involved.
My conclusion about the suspension merits are that the E300 "Airmatic" and the S90 optional dampers both meet my needs well, but for sportiness and/or adjustability the E300 obviously wins hands down. I would enjoy the extra features of "Airmatic", but it is not something critical to my purchase decision.
Like several have recommended, I am trying to come up with a way to get seat time in both cars.
Last edited by Mike__S; 12-30-2016 at 04:26 AM.
12-29-2016, 01:05 PM
#28
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thanks again for the additional comments from everyone! It is very helpful.
Note at this point I am still not especially leaning towards the S90, but my wife is. All other considerations aside, she is not one to leave 10 large on the table. She also has non-existent technical grasp of machinery of any kind. I must turn to you all as a sounding board! Non-the-less, I intend that both cars should have a fair representation. On a Mercedes site, someone must fight the S90 corner, eh?
To this end, I am not quite sure what has been experienced in the suspension department based on the differing comments about the S90 vs. E300 handling. Do not forget that the E 300 has three different suspension options. The vast majority of cars sitting at the dealerships sport suspension with a lower ride height and fairly aggressive three position dampers. Nice, tight autobahn suspension. Except I will not be driving on the autobahn.
There is also the option of a 'normal' three way damper position, but so far I think all the cars are ordered sports by the dealerships so far. It seems to be the in thing when selling cars these days to have sport suspension. The Audi A6 suffers the same fate these days. Not complaining, just making the observation.
Then, there is the E300 Luxury option that has the "Airmatic" suspension which has a wide range adjustability. Very few cars have this option, but I have driven one, twice. I found the standard S90 suspension roughly equivalent to the soft setting of the E 300 "Airmatic". It was still well controlled, but did have a great deal of compliance to it. Neither were 'too' soft, just not a sport type setup.
What I gather is most have driven the E300 Sport suspension and prefer it to the softer S90 suspension. However, I felt the optional dampers on the S90 can also be tightened up significantly, yet again I have not heard from anyone else who has played around with this adjustment. Note the 3 position setting drive mode of the S90 is identical with standard or optional dampers, but of course nothing happens with the damper in dynamic mode without the optional suspension. Only the throttle action is quicker, the steering heavier and the transmission shifts at higher rpm.
I think it is important for me to announce my sports car days are over and foremost I want a compliant, well controlled ride quality. I am 68 and have a fully arthritic back and sports damaged knees. We are considering the E300 fitted with "Airmatic" suspension. What I discovered is the S90 suspension compared favorably with this. I would agree the S90 does not compare favorably with the seemingly ubiquitous E300 "Sport" suspension, if that kind of lowered, tight ride quality is what a person desires. As we continue to get older, that is not going to cut it.
I have occasionally read in the US, UK and German press, as well as on this site that the S90 steering is vague and/or too light. Having driven both cars and earlier Mercedes models I can only observe that the light S90 steering is not bad, just very different. I also realize if you are not used to it, it will feel strange to the point of unacceptable.
I can tell you I have several friends who insist steering should fell tight in this way. To me this really is just an unnecessarily heavy feel. I do not particularly like it, nor feel it imparts any better steering qualities. In contrast, I find the S90 steering light and precise, much in the way I enjoyed Subaru WRX and early Porsche 911 steering. In this, we must say, to each his own. I have no complaints about the E300 Luxury steering feel either. I think the S90 also as a slower steering, something like 3 turns lock to lock, where the E300 is more like 2.6. I can understand complaints about the different feel. When my 2.8 turn WRX steering rack wore out, I put in a WRC 2.2 turn rack. You sneeze and you risk changing lanes! Again, different needs and intensions are involved.
My conclusion about the suspension merits are that the E300 "Airmatic" and the S90 optional dampers both meet my needs well, but for sportiness and/or adjustability the E300 obviously wins hands down. I would enjoy the extra features of "Airmatic", but it is not something critical to my purchase decision.
Like several have recommended, I am trying to come up with a way to get seat time in both cars.
Note at this point I am still not especially leaning towards the S90, but my wife is. All other considerations aside, she is not one to leave 10 large on the table. She also has non-existent technical grasp of machinery of any kind. I must turn to you all as a sounding board! Non-the-less, I intend that both cars should have a fair representation. On a Mercedes site, someone must fight the S90 corner, eh?
To this end, I am not quite sure what has been experienced in the suspension department based on the differing comments about the S90 vs. E300 handling. Do not forget that the E 300 has three different suspension options. The vast majority of cars sitting at the dealerships sport suspension with a lower ride height and fairly aggressive three position dampers. Nice, tight autobahn suspension. Except I will not be driving on the autobahn.
There is also the option of a 'normal' three way damper position, but so far I think all the cars are ordered sports by the dealerships so far. It seems to be the in thing when selling cars these days to have sport suspension. The Audi A6 suffers the same fate these days. Not complaining, just making the observation.
Then, there is the E300 Luxury option that has the "Airmatic" suspension which has a wide range adjustability. Very few cars have this option, but I have driven one, twice. I found the standard S90 suspension roughly equivalent to the soft setting of the E 300 "Airmatic". It was still well controlled, but did have a great deal of compliance to it. Neither were 'too' soft, just not a sport type setup.
What I gather is most have driven the E300 Sport suspension and prefer it to the softer S90 suspension. However, I felt the optional dampers on the S90 can also be tightened up significantly, yet again I have not heard from anyone else who has played around with this adjustment. Note the 3 position setting drive mode of the S90 is identical with standard or optional dampers, but of course nothing happens with the damper in dynamic mode without the optional suspension. Only the throttle action is quicker, the steering heavier and the transmission shifts at higher rpm.
I think it is important for me to announce my sports car days are over and foremost I want a compliant, well controlled ride quality. I am 68 and have a fully arthritic back and sports damaged knees. We are considering the E300 fitted with "Airmatic" suspension. What I discovered is the S90 suspension compared favorably with this. I would agree the S90 does not compare favorably with the seemingly ubiquitous E300 "Sport" suspension, if that kind of lowered, tight ride quality is what a person desires. As we continue to get older, that is not going to cut it.
I have occasionally read in the US, UK and German press, as well as on this site that the S90 steering is vague and/or too light. Having driven both cars and earlier Mercedes models I can only observe that the light S90 steering is not bad, just very different. I also realize if you are not used to it, it will feel strange to the point of unacceptable.
I can tell you I have several friends who insist steering should fell tight in this way. To me this really is just an unnecessarily heavy feel. I do not particularly like it, nor feel it imparts any better steering qualities. In contrast, I find the S90 steering light and precise, much in the way I enjoyed Subaru WRX and early Porsche 911 steering. In this, we must say, to each his own. I have no complaints about the E300 Luxury steering feel either. I think the S90 also as a slower steering, something like 3 turns lock to lock, where the E300 is more like 2.6. I can understand complaints about the different feel. When my 2.8 turn WRX steering rack wore out, I put in a WRC 2.2 turn rack. You sneeze and you risk changing lanes! Again, different needs and intensions are involved.
My conclusion about the suspension merits are that the E300 "Airmatic" and the S90 optional dampers both meet my needs well, but for sportiness and/or adjustability the E300 obviously wins hands down. I would enjoy the extra features of "Airmatic", but it is not something critical to my purchase decision.
Like several have recommended, I am trying to come up with a way to get seat time in both cars.
Many dealerships will give you a 2 day test drive option: Take them both out for a couple of days and choose what fits your likes best. Listening to us blabber is of secondary importance. It might be fun but also confusing given the variety of tastes. The softest ride from an MB will be an airmatic equipped car with 17 inch rims. When you select the luxury package the air body control suspension option is included. It also includes the hood ornament which is dear to many Mercedes owners.
Note: Airmatic and its variations is a technological tour de force but it does suffer significantly more problems than a regular setup which is otherwise virtually problem free.
12-29-2016, 02:06 PM
#29
Member
Thread Starter
C4004matic,
Thanks for the tip about arranging an extended drive. I'll check in with the sales managers at both dealerships on the idea of an extended drive.
I did intend to run the E300 on the 17's, which are 50 series profile, for the better ride and lower noise. That is the one thing about the Volvo that could prove problematic. They are on 19's, and a 45 series, or 40 series 20 inch, which is more a style statement than a technical necessity in my book. Stiff sidewall tires make for sharper steering feel and transient response, but usually with increase noise and harshness.
The other bone I have to pick with the E300 is no spare tire. We travel 400 miles, frequently out in the middle of nowhere. Run flats are great rolling around town, you will never be late for a meeting. That is not our profile, we need a spare tire on long trips, period. Our current travel car, the 2014 VW Sportwagen has a full size spare. The S90 has a doughnut spare. I think e300 can be fitted with a doughnut, but no one at the dealership could tell me, nor how that might affect trunk space. Still lots to think about if we do go to just the one car.
I will probably fade on this thread for awhile and come back to it when can share better insight about the two cars.
Thanks to everyone for the suggestions and opinions!
Happy Holidays, again, to all.
-=m=-
Thanks for the tip about arranging an extended drive. I'll check in with the sales managers at both dealerships on the idea of an extended drive.
I did intend to run the E300 on the 17's, which are 50 series profile, for the better ride and lower noise. That is the one thing about the Volvo that could prove problematic. They are on 19's, and a 45 series, or 40 series 20 inch, which is more a style statement than a technical necessity in my book. Stiff sidewall tires make for sharper steering feel and transient response, but usually with increase noise and harshness.
The other bone I have to pick with the E300 is no spare tire. We travel 400 miles, frequently out in the middle of nowhere. Run flats are great rolling around town, you will never be late for a meeting. That is not our profile, we need a spare tire on long trips, period. Our current travel car, the 2014 VW Sportwagen has a full size spare. The S90 has a doughnut spare. I think e300 can be fitted with a doughnut, but no one at the dealership could tell me, nor how that might affect trunk space. Still lots to think about if we do go to just the one car.
I will probably fade on this thread for awhile and come back to it when can share better insight about the two cars.
Thanks to everyone for the suggestions and opinions!
Happy Holidays, again, to all.
-=m=-
Last edited by Mike__S; 12-29-2016 at 02:37 PM.
12-30-2016, 02:18 AM
#30
Member
I think 18" wheel with air ride along with the acoustic package will provide you with a quiet, comfortable drive, while the Sport+ mode will indulge you with sharper reflexes for some spirited driving when needed. My wife noticed how the E300 loves to corner and its ability to become an extension of your thought, despite having zero interest in adventuring outside the safe zone.
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Mike__S (12-31-2016)
12-30-2016, 10:35 AM
#32
MBWorld Fanatic!
The 20's look even better.
I have 18's on my C class and they actually look very well proportioned. My guess that the E, being a larger car would look very similar, with 19's. If you take a look on the configurator, the 17 in rim/wheel combo (luxury model) on the E class does not look bad at all. On the other hand, the 17 inchers that came with the C class were horrible. The design of the rim is almost as important as the size. Its like a fat guy and a striped shirt; vertical, good! horizontal, BAD!
12-30-2016, 02:50 PM
#33
Member
I have the AMG 18" on my E300 and they look well matched together. The lower profile tires on the 19" would add a lot of stiffness to the ride for my preference. The 20" would be great on tracks but punitive on pot holed roads.
I've driven the E300 with standard 17" wheels - Very cushy, quiet, but the 18" were definitely the ticket.
I've driven the E300 with standard 17" wheels - Very cushy, quiet, but the 18" were definitely the ticket.
12-30-2016, 05:37 PM
#34
MBWorld Fanatic!
I have the AMG 18" on my E300 and they look well matched together. The lower profile tires on the 19" would add a lot of stiffness to the ride for my preference. The 20" would be great on tracks but punitive on pot holed roads.
I've driven the E300 with standard 17" wheels - Very cushy, quiet, but the 18" were definitely the ticket.
I've driven the E300 with standard 17" wheels - Very cushy, quiet, but the 18" were definitely the ticket.
01-01-2017, 01:37 PM
#35
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2010 E350 4Matic
FWIW Consumer reports isn;t impressed with the S90's level of refinement
http://www.consumerreports.org/2017-...vo-s90-review/
they weren't all that impressed with the E300 Sports ride either
http://www.consumerreports.org/e-cla...z-e300-review/
But I would guess that would be cured with luxury with the air suspension. Given the above I know which direction I would go.
http://www.consumerreports.org/2017-...vo-s90-review/
they weren't all that impressed with the E300 Sports ride either
http://www.consumerreports.org/e-cla...z-e300-review/
But I would guess that would be cured with luxury with the air suspension. Given the above I know which direction I would go.
01-01-2017, 02:26 PM
#36
MBWorld Fanatic!
FWIW Consumer reports isn;t impressed with the S90's level of refinement
http://www.consumerreports.org/2017-...vo-s90-review/
they weren't all that impressed with the E300 Sports ride either
http://www.consumerreports.org/e-cla...z-e300-review/
But I would guess that would be cured with luxury with the air suspension. Given the above I know which direction I would go.
http://www.consumerreports.org/2017-...vo-s90-review/
they weren't all that impressed with the E300 Sports ride either
http://www.consumerreports.org/e-cla...z-e300-review/
But I would guess that would be cured with luxury with the air suspension. Given the above I know which direction I would go.
01-01-2017, 05:53 PM
#37
MBWorld Fanatic!
Where I live a Volvo (any model) is considered a mommy-mobile with great disdain to be avoided.
That said there aren't any Volvo dealers in my city or the next city nearest to me.
Service would be a major issue.
That said there aren't any Volvo dealers in my city or the next city nearest to me.
Service would be a major issue.
01-01-2017, 08:37 PM
#38
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2012 CLS63
This thread peaked my interest enough to visit the Volvo website: they have a model for over 105K!!!! This must be a first and new territory for Volvo?
01-01-2017, 10:33 PM
#39
Super Member
04-29-2017, 09:45 AM
#41
Member
When I first started looking, I was in this same position. I had been driving an S80 for the past 7 years with no problems but the steering was slow and handling a little blocky. In the end I decided I didn't want to get a first-year model of either. I ended up with a low mileage E350.
I'm betting I'll be back to the same debate right around the mid cycle refresh for each. I'll be following this debate with interest.
I'm betting I'll be back to the same debate right around the mid cycle refresh for each. I'll be following this debate with interest.
