2012 merc amg

The only extra thing I woulda got with your build would be the Multi Contour Seats and the Burmester upgraded 3 D sound if they offered it in the wagon

rraisley

I considered the multi-contour seats, for the massage and such, but tried it out on an S-Class and didn't care for it (the massage - both my wife and I considered all settings we tried annoying). And couldn't see the extra money just for a couple more seat adjustments. I find the seats I have a comfortable as I'd ever want. The 3D Burmester appears to be no longer available for the E-Class, but I'd never have spent the money. The system it has is more than enough for me, and can be nicely appreciated with the Acoustic Comfort Package (which is now special order only). To me, the 3D system was always silly-expensive, and most people old enough to afford a MB probably can't hear the difference. ;-)

madtrader

Glad to see you got your estate. Beautiful. I’m also nuts about tracking fuel economy as an old habit. A few years ago I switched to using fuelly.com to hold the data to share with others. Interesting to see the variance amongst the same vehicle in different locations with different drivers.

2012 merc amg

Fuel economy is great on the e450. I get around 30 highway and 20 around town. It’s an interesting contrast. I traded my e450 cabrio last week for a 2017 S550 and I drove my E450 wagon for the first time in about 4 days today and it really did feel like a sports car compared to the S550. Not to say the s550 is not great but it is just kinda boaty and floaty which is very comfortable on trips and all but it’s gonna make me feel even more the sports car like feel every time I get behind the wheel of the e450 which is a good thing.

rraisley

While I haven't driven mine much so far, I've seen nowhere near 30 mph highway. But it's very new yet, so may improve.

JTK44

Right from the "git go" in comfort mode with only 500 miles on my E450, on the interstate I average 30 mpg using regular.

My settings are:

• Steering: Sport Mode
• Engine: Eco Mode
• Handling: comfort mode

In these settings on the open road at 74 mph, I get 31 to 33 mpg. That is not "observed" but actual: take total distance and divide by gallons used, again using regular!

rraisley

Well, that's my problem, then. I've been babying it, driving in strictly Eco mode and using Premium 93 octane. You're not concerned using regular, given the manual's warning, that if you /must/ use regular, use only a partial tank, and refill on 91+ ASAP?

2012 merc amg

I'm sure mpg's vary depending on cars, they are all different, some perform better, some worse, some get better MPG. Anything mechanical can vary. I always use 93 in my car there is a performance downgrade using regular and like the above probably increased engine wear. Anything with a turbo always use super.

JTK44

Nope no problems:

Test after test have shown that there is a HP loss of between 5% and 7% when you use regular vs. premium. That means instead of 362 HP I am only getting between 335 HP adn 344 HP, more than adequate for my driving.

All modern cars have electronic "knock sensors" which take care of any "pre-detonation" that might occur using regular vs. premium.

You must have a different owner's manual than I do.

At page 411 is the following:

"If you want maximum engine output: only refuel with unleaded premium grade gasoline with an octane number of at least 91AKI/95RON

As a temporary measure, if the recommended fuel is not available, you may also refuel with unleaded regular gasoline with at least 87 AKI. 91 RON. This may reduce engine output and increase fuel consumption"

From this I take:

• For full performance premium is recommended. I have never ever used, or even come close to using the "maximum output" of my E450. I have the V6, E450 because of the smoothness and quiet vs. the 4 cyclinder, E300/350.
• You can use regular if you drive sanely - i.e., modestly which I do.

I have used regular in the following cars with no side effects whatsoever: BMW 740 il (two), Acura MDX (two), BMW 540 (two) and two Mercedes E Class both V6.

I have tested each of those cars using regular vs. premium and I have calculated no difference in average mpg.

The only real difference I have found is the extra money in my pocket!

I realize others on this Board may say if I can afford a $70,000 plus car I can afford premium gasoline.

They are of course correct - I of course can afford premium, but that is besides the point.

Each of us chooses where to spend our money, and I choose not spend it on gasoline.

rraisley

If you check the page after the above text, I believe you will find the Note I posted above about premature wear. I believe you have an E450, and both my 2020 manual, and the downloaded 2019 and 2020 manuals I've checked for both the E Sedan and Wagon, have that note on the following page. Your printed manual may be different, I have no idea. But what they are publishing today has this note for 2019 and 2020. And BTW, this applies to both the 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder.

I agree with the rest of your points, having used Regular gas in both my VW GTI and Acura RDX. It's this note that bothers me. If I have an engine failure during the warranty, and they know I've been using Regular gas (don't know how they'd know, of course), they could well point to this note as the cause of failure. I/you could lie to them, but I'm not sure I want to take that chance.

JTK44

The point is that premium is not mandatory - it is recommended.

If premium was mandatory that would be a different story. But it is not.

If you tax your engine, for example flooring you engine at the stop light when it turns green, driving at altitude while towing (highly unlikely) or wanting the utmost performance, then premium is necessary.

Like you and many, many other posters, we are in our 70's, drive conservatively, and do not tax our engines.

For this type of driving regular is more than sufficient.

I am not the least bit worried about "engine failure": my driving habits do not tax the engine and in those rare cases where it might, the anti pre-detonation features of electronic ignitions will take care of any problems associated with using regular gas.

As I posted I have been using regular gas in cars that recommended (but not mandatory) premium for over 20 years with no ill effect. All had electronic ignition with anti pre-detonation that prevented any problem from using regular gasoline.

rraisley

Not according to that note. Therein lies the problem.

JTK44

You have to read both pages together:

Not using premium may cause (and may not) premature engine wear - not engine failure.

If you use regular it is not recommended to drive at maximum speed, which in Germany is 150+ mph, sudden acceleration or driving above 3000 RPM which is above 110 mph.

So if you race from a stop light, intend to drive at maximum speed or drive above 110 MPH for sustained periods use premium gas!

Is this you? If so I would recommend premium: otherwise, unless you have a large position in oil companies, save your money and use regular!

To me using premium for the type of driving I do is akin to changing oil every 5,000 miles: It won't hurt but it is unnecessary and a waste of money.

BTW, do you think all the Mercedes sold in Africa, Asia, India and other third world countries are running on premium? Hardly.

These engines are designed to run or either premium or regular. That is what the electronic ignition is designed to do!

rraisley

That still ignores the note posted. I agree that I don't drive aggressively, but the general feeling here is that the power of the E450's V6 is greatly desired over the E350's I4. At the above recommended driving limit of 3000 RPM, the power available from the E450 is 210 HP. Closer to 200 HP with regular gas. A 200 HP E-Class? I don't think so.

I always fuel locally at Costco. Regular fuel is currently $2.029, while 93 octane (the E requires 91 octane) is $2.379. My 4 year lease is for 7500 miles per year. If I travel that maximum distance during the 4 years, 30,000 miles, at say 23 MPG, buying Premium over Regular will cost me $457 more. I paid $5,000 more for the V6 over the I4 (admittedly, I didn't have a choice with the wagon, but that's the difference with the Sedan). So, for less than 10% added cost to the V6 engine, I get to use it, without concern, instead of getting only about 200 HP. To me, that's money well spent, and a drop in the huge E-Class budget over 4 years.

JTK44

You figures on HP are totally wrong. Do not know where they came from.

At 70 MPH you use less than 17% of available Hp and 95% of that HP is used to overcome air resistance.

Everyone can spend their money as they choose. You do not have to justify using premium. As I said using premium is like changing your oil every 5,000. No harm will be done except to your pocketbook!

ua549

HP is easy enough to determine. Just press the voice button and say "engine data" to see engine stats showing HP used, etc.

maggs01

Hi, JTK44. Regarding your comment on choosing to use regular gas, rather than premium, you mentioned that you've been doing this successfully for 20 years. Just a quick question. Do you typically keep your Benz for a long time (I typically hold onto my cars 12+ years) or do you change cars every 3-to-4 years? I would like to consider using regular gas, but I'm concerned about expensive engine wear repairs, since I intend to keep my car for (around) 3 times longer than the average person who leases a car. I religiously maintain all of my cars to maximize longevity and reliability. Very interested in your experience and opinion regarding this topic. Thanks.

JTK44

I lease for 3 years, 10,000 miles per year. This is the sweet spot in leasing. 4 years will require a change of tires and that cost is more than the savings on going from 36 months to 48 months.

I am horrified about the cost of maintenance of German cars including Porsche, Audi, BMW and Mercedes (I have owned many versions of each) beyond their warranty period. I own a Porsche Boxster and routine maintenance is horrific: $425 for an oil change and automatic transmission linkage plus bearing that broke at 9,800 miles, the car is 10 years old but less than 10,000 miles, cost $3,200. Can you imagine an automatic transmission linkage breaking on an American or Japanese car in under 10,000 miles? I never heard of it, but it happened to me on my Boxster.

As I said I just do not want the expense of ownership beyond the warranty.

rraisley

They're not wrong. I have a graph of HP and torque for the E450 engine. 362 HP at about 5,500 rpm. But at 3,000 RPM, the HP available drops to 210. It only makes sense: HP = Torque x RPM / 5252 (if Torque is in ft-lb). Half rpm will result in about half HP. It's a bit more than that because torque is higher at mid range speeds than at maximum HP speeds. I took the 210 hp off the graph, but it's easily calculated from published figures: MB specifies the torque of the E450 as a maximum of 369 ft-lb at 1800-4500 rpm. At 3000 rpm, HP = 369 x 3000 / 5252 = 211 HP. If you never exceed 3,000 rpm in your car, you'll never have available more than 211 HP.
This has nothing to do with with available HP from the engine. HP used is always less than HP available, except when at max throttle and max rpm. Steady state driving conditions always uses a small fraction of power available. Max power is only approached during acceleration (ignoring max possible speed, which we will really never approach).

But you're right, we all spend money in different ways. I just happen to think it's worth paying 0.55% of the MSRP extra for gas over 4 years to know I've given my car the best chance for survival and gotten maximum performance and longevity. And that "The Note" will never be a problem with my dealer or my warranty.

JTK44

You are leasing correct? You drive less than 7,500 miles per year, correct?

None of what you post applies to you and "best chance for survival and gotten maximum performance (which you admit you will never use) and longevity" - even if you keep you car after lease for 10 years that is less than 75,000 miles.

Again using premium is like changing your oil every 5,000 miles or taking flight insurance!

Hundens

Call me stupid, but I see nothing to be gained in trying to outsmart MB. I just follow instructions and am done with it. I change the oil at 10,000 miles and use premium fuel. If someone is concerned about fuel cost, head to Costco.

rraisley

I'm only leasing as a way of buying the car and being sure it's what I want. My desire is to buy the car at end of lease and keep it as least as long as I can warranty it. Unless I really like what's available at that time (provided it's not electric).

Funny, people spend thousands of dollars wrapping their cars and such, but don't want to spend a few dollars on keeping the engine in the best shape. They say to never buy new, always buy a couple years old or so, but then to never buy without the automation packages that are only available on ordered new cars. But as we've discussed, we all spend differently.

Ignore that big warning NOTE if you like; I'm not going to.

Let's go our own separate ways on this, okay?

dreuther

Good review by Autoblog: https://www.autoblog.com/2020/01/20/...-wagon-review/

I love our 2020 E450 Wagon in Iridium Silver, Sport Styling, AMG Line Exterior, Night Package, ... looks awesome and drives great. Switch to Sport+ and even the exhaust sound gets exciting.

CarFan1

Are you using regular fuel in the Boxster? I have a 2008 Porsche Cayman S and it has been the most reliable vehicle I've ever owned. Didn't get an extended warranty and I've not had a thing to worry about. Just passed 40k and I've had the regularly scheduled maintenance done and only paid to replace a new front trunk strut in all that time.