A Paean to E450 Wagon
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From: North Carolina
2017 GLC300, 2020 E450 Wagon
A Paean to E450 Wagon
The May 2020 issue of Car and Driver has a report on the conclusion on their long-term,40000-mile test of a 2019 E450 wagon. It's full of glowing praise, and the praise has been consistent throughout the regular test updates, which are also available on C&D site. In summary, if you have the means, they highly recommend it. If you're a S213 owner, how accurate and objective do you find C&D's evaluation.
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2019 E 450, 2016 E350 4matic (retired), 2018 Ford Edge Sport, 2008 Porsche Boxster
Many years ago I was a subscriber to Car and Driver: Then I realized that even the worst cars were given glowing reviews.
I canceled my subscription and take their reviews with a grain of salt.
Just my $.02.
I canceled my subscription and take their reviews with a grain of salt.
Just my $.02.
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From: Charlotte, NC
2024 E450 AT Wagon, 2024 EQS450+ / Had: 2021 E350, 2019 E300, 2021 + 20 GLE350, 2019 E450 Wagon(s)
Mine hasn't lived up to expectations, mainly because I have a persistent issue that hasn't been solved yet. I've written about it in other threads in the forum. I may be on the of few S213 owners who truly regrets the decision.
Last edited by Lanzz; Apr 12, 2020 at 08:52 PM.
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E Class Estate S213
I have loved every minute (now 16 months) of my 2019 MY S213.
Mine is a Prem+ model with many optional extras which really make the car special. Came from BMW X5 before and RR Sport before that. Never regretted it at all. Review seems pretty accurate to my experience.
Mine is a Prem+ model with many optional extras which really make the car special. Came from BMW X5 before and RR Sport before that. Never regretted it at all. Review seems pretty accurate to my experience.
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From: Charlotte, NC
2024 E450 AT Wagon, 2024 EQS450+ / Had: 2021 E350, 2019 E300, 2021 + 20 GLE350, 2019 E450 Wagon(s)
Not online yet that I could find - it is in the hardcopy magazine that was mailed about 10 days ago. (I am assuming that is where SteadyRover saw it...) I think there's a delay between the article in the magazine and posting it online. Good article and really sums up the car nicely.
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From: North Carolina
2017 GLC300, 2020 E450 Wagon
Yes, I couldn't find it online either yet. The article is detailed (e.g. headlamp costs $3,000) and gushes with praise. Last paragraph reads:
"Our long-term evaluations are, at their core, a test of whether the new-car shine holds up or dulls over time. Our affection for the E-class wagon only grew the more time we spent with it. This is one of the few times you'll catch us saying that 40,000 miles wasn't enough"
The review is so overwhelmingly positive it's just suspicious. That's why I wanted to hear from actual owners while my own wagon order is pending.
"Our long-term evaluations are, at their core, a test of whether the new-car shine holds up or dulls over time. Our affection for the E-class wagon only grew the more time we spent with it. This is one of the few times you'll catch us saying that 40,000 miles wasn't enough"
The review is so overwhelmingly positive it's just suspicious. That's why I wanted to hear from actual owners while my own wagon order is pending.
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Yes, I couldn't find it online either yet. The article is detailed (e.g. headlamp costs $3,000) and gushes with praise. Last paragraph reads:
"Our long-term evaluations are, at their core, a test of whether the new-car shine holds up or dulls over time. Our affection for the E-class wagon only grew the more time we spent with it. This is one of the few times you'll catch us saying that 40,000 miles wasn't enough"
The review is so overwhelmingly positive it's just suspicious. That's why I wanted to hear from actual owners while my own wagon order is pending.
"Our long-term evaluations are, at their core, a test of whether the new-car shine holds up or dulls over time. Our affection for the E-class wagon only grew the more time we spent with it. This is one of the few times you'll catch us saying that 40,000 miles wasn't enough"
The review is so overwhelmingly positive it's just suspicious. That's why I wanted to hear from actual owners while my own wagon order is pending.
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From: MO, USA
2019 E450 Wagon
I’ve been waiting for their final review too. Out of coincidence, I found their series on the 2018 model as I picked up a 2018 and then they replaced it due to that parking lot mishap as I ordered a 2019 (with really similar options). I’m nowhere near 40k miles across both cars combined, but in the roughly 7k miles I’ve put on them, I am quite happy.
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From: North Carolina
2017 GLC300, 2020 E450 Wagon
C&D has posted a web version of their long-term review of the wagon here. Enjoy!
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...n-reliability/
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...n-reliability/
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From: SW Desert USA
2014 Jag F-Type vert, 2004 Volvo V70R
They also posted reviews of the '88 and '98 MB wagons, plus the intro and 10K reports on the '19. Pretty thorough. For those who have not read the C&D stuff there was a '18 wagon under test that was damaged in a parking lot incident which accounts for the '19 being tested. I expect they will have a review of the '28 wagon in due course.
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2019 E 450, 2016 E350 4matic (retired), 2018 Ford Edge Sport, 2008 Porsche Boxster
Thanks for the post:
Just an observation and my $.02:
After three years the value of the car was $35,926. That is 54% depreciation.
That is why I lease: the residual at 15,000 miles per year, 3 years is 56%. That equates to $49,938.
Over three years that is a savings of nearly $14,000!
Just an observation and my $.02:
After three years the value of the car was $35,926. That is 54% depreciation.
That is why I lease: the residual at 15,000 miles per year, 3 years is 56%. That equates to $49,938.
Over three years that is a savings of nearly $14,000!
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From: SW Desert USA
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JTK, do you believe the C&D depreciation number? Not to go off topic, but I believe leases only work for individuals (non-business) if someone will suborn the lease. That $14,000 has to come out of someone's pocket and I expect it isn't the leasing company. In all types of equipment a manufacturer will use part of its manufacturing profit which can be quite large to support a financial yield which can be quite small by guaranteeing the residual assumption. Fine by me if the manufacturer likes supporting the back end instead of giving the discount up front. All sorts of reasons to do that.
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By "suborn the lease" I assume you mean a "cap cost reduction" what everyone, who does lease, calls a "down payment". However, a "cap cost reduction" does not change the residual.
What the numbers in the C&D article show, and I have no reason to doubt them, is why 80% to 90% of E class and above are leased rather than bought.
Yes you are correct: Most leases are "supported" by the unrealistically high residuals: if the residuals were realistic, payments would go "through the roof" and sales would collapse.
Several months ago I was in our local Bentley dealership: On every window was the "suggested monthly lease payment": no where to be found was the Monroney sticker with the MSRP: the dealer was blunt: no one buys a Bentley: everyone leases because of the precipitous depreciation - resale value. By leasing you pass off that depreciation to the manufacturer.
Merceds Benz financial, to protect themselves against the difference in the residual value in the lease and the actual resale value has taken out "GAP" insurance: this is one of the reasons why at the end of lease, with a residual of say $52,000 and actual resale value of $44,000 you can longer, as we did 15 to 20 years ago, offer the dealer $48,000 for your car coming off lease.
I know many on this board buy and intend to keep their MB for 5, 7 and even 10 years: they are enthusiast: But they in the minority:
The numbers do not lie: Bottom line: there are sound financial reasons why 80% of Mercedes, Audis and BMW's are leased and not bought.
What the numbers in the C&D article show, and I have no reason to doubt them, is why 80% to 90% of E class and above are leased rather than bought.
Yes you are correct: Most leases are "supported" by the unrealistically high residuals: if the residuals were realistic, payments would go "through the roof" and sales would collapse.
Several months ago I was in our local Bentley dealership: On every window was the "suggested monthly lease payment": no where to be found was the Monroney sticker with the MSRP: the dealer was blunt: no one buys a Bentley: everyone leases because of the precipitous depreciation - resale value. By leasing you pass off that depreciation to the manufacturer.
Merceds Benz financial, to protect themselves against the difference in the residual value in the lease and the actual resale value has taken out "GAP" insurance: this is one of the reasons why at the end of lease, with a residual of say $52,000 and actual resale value of $44,000 you can longer, as we did 15 to 20 years ago, offer the dealer $48,000 for your car coming off lease.
I know many on this board buy and intend to keep their MB for 5, 7 and even 10 years: they are enthusiast: But they in the minority:
The numbers do not lie: Bottom line: there are sound financial reasons why 80% of Mercedes, Audis and BMW's are leased and not bought.
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Suborn the lease is jargon, I apologize. It means the manufacturer is making a contribution to the lease that is not readily apparent that affects the lease payment. It can be providing for below market debt in the deal one way or another, or guaranteeing the residual, or whatever the creatives can come up with. The residual guarantee then can be laid off. Cross collateralizations, insurance, or just a straight guarantee. There are three reasons to lease, avoid a downpayment, manage cash flow, or manage the residual. All can make sense. In my case I buy and hold. I put 18,000 miles a year on the wagon, and that would move a lot of money from the residual assumption into the lease payments and since managing the back end doesn't mean anything in my scenario I buy. If it was a business vehicle and I could expense the entire lease payment it would be a different story. I apologize to all for being off topic. BUT, isn't there a Federal statute that requires every new car to have a Monroney?.
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Manroney sticker: Yes: it was in the glove compartment.
Thanks for the definition suborning, which I had not heard the term used before when it came to leasing cars.
When you buy you lose the "suborn": Most do not drive 18,000 miles a year: Before three years you are out of warranty. On a Mercedes it is usually less than 10,000 miles a year. The most popular lease is 36 months, 10,000 miles per year.
I have found that other than routine service, I put service plan "B" into the lease where it is residualized, I have no further expenses: tires, brakes etc. are still original and have not had the expense of replacement. Anything else is covered by warranty.
Clearly for a business, leasing is a no brainer: the worst an audit will do is disallow, Sunday and Saturday, but most allow expensing the full monthly lease payment. A deduction of the lease payment is greater than the depreciation allowance or miles driven.
Thanks for the definition suborning, which I had not heard the term used before when it came to leasing cars.
When you buy you lose the "suborn": Most do not drive 18,000 miles a year: Before three years you are out of warranty. On a Mercedes it is usually less than 10,000 miles a year. The most popular lease is 36 months, 10,000 miles per year.
I have found that other than routine service, I put service plan "B" into the lease where it is residualized, I have no further expenses: tires, brakes etc. are still original and have not had the expense of replacement. Anything else is covered by warranty.
Clearly for a business, leasing is a no brainer: the worst an audit will do is disallow, Sunday and Saturday, but most allow expensing the full monthly lease payment. A deduction of the lease payment is greater than the depreciation allowance or miles driven.
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From: SW Desert USA
2014 Jag F-Type vert, 2004 Volvo V70R
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From: SW Desert USA
2014 Jag F-Type vert, 2004 Volvo V70R
F/U Doug Munro says in his video about an '18 AMG E63s wagon that in 2012 MBUSA sold 220 AMG wagons and that he didn't think that number changed much between 12 and 18. If anyone comes across an authoritative number for regular MB wagons please post. Danke
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I agree totally with JTK44's explanation of why the vast majority of Mercedes, Audis and BMW's are leased due to the true depreciation factor vs Mercedes residual value on the lease terms. In my case my last two purchases were used Mercedes that had just come off lease for exactly that reason.
My 2017 E300 luxury sedan purchased last August had a Monroney sticker of $67,585. Based on the 3 year lease terms offered by Mercedes (august 2016 lease) for that model the residual was 62% for 10,000 miles ($41,902) or 63% for 7500 miles ($42578). The reality is that wholesale value as best I can determine for this low mileage car (12,900 miles) was really closer to $31,000 (46%). I purchased the car for $33,500 plus $535 for SC sales tax and tag transfer, no other fees. Carfax shows car was purchased from auction by a Mercedes dealer who then sold it to another local non Mercedes dealer. Therefore, it was not CPO eligible. Car had brand new Michelin non run flat tires (happy about that) and of course no spare/jack.Clean Carfax (for what that's worth) and oil dipstick revealed what appeared to be brand new oil. Car has been perfect and still under remainder of factory warranty.
I kept by last 2011 Mercedes E350 for 6 years and expect to do the same for this one.
Of particular note is that the optional equipment at the end of the lease is almost worthless when in comes to wholesaling the vehicle. The $4900 designo interior package on my car was shown as $1100 wholesale (a whopping 22% residual value) add to the value by KBB. Frankly, I'm not sure it was worth even that at auction.
My 2017 E300 luxury sedan purchased last August had a Monroney sticker of $67,585. Based on the 3 year lease terms offered by Mercedes (august 2016 lease) for that model the residual was 62% for 10,000 miles ($41,902) or 63% for 7500 miles ($42578). The reality is that wholesale value as best I can determine for this low mileage car (12,900 miles) was really closer to $31,000 (46%). I purchased the car for $33,500 plus $535 for SC sales tax and tag transfer, no other fees. Carfax shows car was purchased from auction by a Mercedes dealer who then sold it to another local non Mercedes dealer. Therefore, it was not CPO eligible. Car had brand new Michelin non run flat tires (happy about that) and of course no spare/jack.Clean Carfax (for what that's worth) and oil dipstick revealed what appeared to be brand new oil. Car has been perfect and still under remainder of factory warranty.
I kept by last 2011 Mercedes E350 for 6 years and expect to do the same for this one.
Of particular note is that the optional equipment at the end of the lease is almost worthless when in comes to wholesaling the vehicle. The $4900 designo interior package on my car was shown as $1100 wholesale (a whopping 22% residual value) add to the value by KBB. Frankly, I'm not sure it was worth even that at auction.
Last edited by roadking321; May 7, 2020 at 02:58 PM.
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Add on's on resale add very little value.
The resale values of an AMG vs. a "stock" car are shocking. After three years expect the actual value of an AMG to be less than 40% of MSRP. Think about that: An MSRP on AMG at $85,000 in three years will be worth less than $34,000!
Anyone who puts on options upon options and buys, rather than leases, is doing it solely for their personal enjoyment. To amortize that depreciation, an owner will have to keep the car for many, many years. And do not forget the cost of maintenance once your car is out of warranty.
Once again the posters on this board an enthusiasts and are not your normal buyer of premium cars such as MB, BMW or Audi to name a few.
Most buyers of premium cars lease, less than 20% buy. Even fewer change wheels, tires, floor mats, apply ceramic coatings, etc. They lease the car for three years, have it serviced by Mercedes and then trade it in for another Mercedes keeping their expenses to lease payments and service - nothing more - nothing less.
The resale values of an AMG vs. a "stock" car are shocking. After three years expect the actual value of an AMG to be less than 40% of MSRP. Think about that: An MSRP on AMG at $85,000 in three years will be worth less than $34,000!
Anyone who puts on options upon options and buys, rather than leases, is doing it solely for their personal enjoyment. To amortize that depreciation, an owner will have to keep the car for many, many years. And do not forget the cost of maintenance once your car is out of warranty.
Once again the posters on this board an enthusiasts and are not your normal buyer of premium cars such as MB, BMW or Audi to name a few.
Most buyers of premium cars lease, less than 20% buy. Even fewer change wheels, tires, floor mats, apply ceramic coatings, etc. They lease the car for three years, have it serviced by Mercedes and then trade it in for another Mercedes keeping their expenses to lease payments and service - nothing more - nothing less.
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I think you are confirming my point: Add on's, highly equipped cars or highly stylized cars like the AMG hold as a percentage of their MSRP significantly less than a stock car:
Here is a real life case in point: From below, my 2019 E450 has the following significant additional equipment:
The $89,000 E450, close to the price of an AMG, obviously has far more equipment than mine does. You will get very, very little for that additional $19,000 optional equipment, above the MSRP of my car.
My lease is for 3 years, 10,000 miles per year. I included the 2 year maintenance agreement in my lease. The residual is $41,946 which is 60% of MSRP.
If the $89K E450 went to $35,000 after three years, then we can safely assume that the value of my E450 with a MSRP of $19,000 less - $70,200, will be substantially less than $35,000. If we just take 50% of that we come to $25,000.
The residual is $15,000 more:
That is the savings of leasing vs. owning after three years, and not to beat a dead horse, why more than 80% of premium luxury cars are leased.
Here is a real life case in point: From below, my 2019 E450 has the following significant additional equipment:
- heated steering wheel
- digital instrument cluster
- heated front seats
- Premium package
- Exterior lighting package
- Parking assistance package
- Driver assistance package
The $89,000 E450, close to the price of an AMG, obviously has far more equipment than mine does. You will get very, very little for that additional $19,000 optional equipment, above the MSRP of my car.
My lease is for 3 years, 10,000 miles per year. I included the 2 year maintenance agreement in my lease. The residual is $41,946 which is 60% of MSRP.
If the $89K E450 went to $35,000 after three years, then we can safely assume that the value of my E450 with a MSRP of $19,000 less - $70,200, will be substantially less than $35,000. If we just take 50% of that we come to $25,000.
The residual is $15,000 more:
That is the savings of leasing vs. owning after three years, and not to beat a dead horse, why more than 80% of premium luxury cars are leased.
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I don't agree. You car and the C&D car should be worth about the same after three years when giving little to no value to the C&D car's options. But who wants to drive a stripper. I think the AMG E63s is excessive, but as you know nothing succeeds like excess. Percentage and cash wise you come out ahead.
Frankly I think most people chose to lease luxury cars to manage the residual, i.e. to get put in a new car every three years. I expect the percentage of people who actually crunch the numbers in a lease vs buy analysis is quite small. After that I expect the biggest motivator is not having to upfront much money. If these decisions were strictly analytical we would all be driving three year old Chevys.
Frankly I think most people chose to lease luxury cars to manage the residual, i.e. to get put in a new car every three years. I expect the percentage of people who actually crunch the numbers in a lease vs buy analysis is quite small. After that I expect the biggest motivator is not having to upfront much money. If these decisions were strictly analytical we would all be driving three year old Chevys.
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I crunch rent vs purchase numbers for each purchase. For me purchase wins every time. I buy a new car every 2-3 years and keep it a minimum of 6 years, often double that. My stable fluctuates between 3-5 vehicles. I recently sold an '08 BMW 535i that I bought new in June 2017 (my highway car). Cost of ownership for 13 yrs including depreciation and maintenance was about $4,500 per year. The idea of being in debt is problematic as well. I'd hate to be in debt for something I don't own.
