JTK44

I thought there would be manufacturing efficiencies, no transmission on internal combustion engine, no radiator, etc. that would more than offset the cost of the batteries.

see: https://autos.yahoo.com/were-not-eve...175700417.html

superswiss

It's cheaper to build them, but the battery is still a massive cost factor. The cost just got shifted to the batteries, to the point where EVs actually are cutting costs in many areas such as interior quality, build quality and materials used, to not be too far off in price from their ICE counterparts. The EQS for example has some real build quality issues that are surfacing more and more. Paint work is terrible on some of them and panels like with Tesla don't line up. Not something one is used to seeing from Mercedes.

Nobody really wants to talk about where all the lithium is supposed to come from and the environmental impact that lithium mines have. There are huge hurdles to get a mine up an running. There's a large lithium deposit in Nevada for example, I forgot the name of the mountain, but the chance of ever getting an operating mine there are practically nil due to the environmental concerns. The current lithium demand is essentially met by poor countries and/or countries with lax environmental regulations and done on the backs of poor people who don't have much of a say. Nobody in the USA, Germany etc. wants a lithium mine in their backyard. The problems just get shifted elsewhere. It's convenient for politicians to demand the sale of only electric cars starting in the next decade, but let other countries deal with the mess of mining the lithium. Just as long as it's not in their country, and their citizens realizing that's it's not as green as they've been told.

The G Man

Lithium battery cars are not the long term solution, lithium is very dirty to mine and it is not in abundant supply. Lithium batteries also do not recycle well, only about 50% of it is recyclable compare to lead acid batteries which is 98% recyclable. China is currently dominating the lithium battery supplier market as towns and cities in the US start to build up the EV charging network. Not sure what the next powertrain technology will be after lithium batteries but lithium is a in small finite supply on earth.

DFWdude

For me, the more important consideration is the added expense of a charging station. It's nice that a network of roadside charging stations is being developed. But if one truly wants the independence from external stations (gas stations or charging stations), the additional cost of EV is installing a recharging station in one's garage. Expensive to begin with, and even more so if 220V is required and the house doesn't have it in said garage.

As it stands now, I can easily see having an EV for local driving, if I can have my own charging station, and maintain an old-school ICE car for long trips.

The game changer might be a "Generac" type emergency home power unit that also includes EV charging on demand for vehicles?

superswiss

That's also my take currently, but short of a small nuclear reactor I'm also not sure what the next power source is going to be. But charging a large battery is somewhat crude. It takes too long. I don't care what anybody says about needing to stop for a bathroom break or food anyway, or charging at home. That's all true, but I make those stops currently when and where I want and not when and where the car tells me. That's the whole point about the freedom of an automobile. Go wherever you want and stop where and whenever you want, other than a quick 3 minute gas station stop every now and again. We seem to be losing sight of what an automobile ought to be.

As far as charging at home goes as said above, that requires a garage or carport, and the proper electrical installation. To accommodate those who don't have a garage and/or lack the necessary electrical infrastructure, pretty much every parking meter would have to be turned into a charging station. All possible and is essentially what they have done in Norway, but it's gonna take a while and not everybody can subsidize it by selling oil to the rest of the world like Norway and claim success at home in their own backyard.

BEVs work for one reason and one reason only and that is the fact that most people don't drive much on a daily basis, and those who own them can usually charge at home overnight. That's really the only use case that properly works. Outside of that you have to compromise compared to an ICE. It's as simple as that. Some are willing to put up with it, but others are not. I think the best we can hope for in the next years is that they find ways to double the energy density per kg, so that these EVs can shed some of their weight penalty. The capacities of the batteries themselves, though, can't really go much higher, otherwise charging time just gets even longer as you have to somehow get the energy into the battery. I guess we could go to 1600V technology and start putting up 700 kW chargers to charge in half the time as the fastest charging cars do today, but ultimately the energy required to charge the batteries has to be supplied first by the charging stations in large enough quantities and at high enough rates.

taphil

Batteries are expensive and in limited supply, and costs have gone up during the current economic and political conditions.

Nevertheless, last year I got a Tesla solar panels installed on the roof and Powerwall batteries in the garage. System produces 130% of annual household use, and the excess will be ready for a Rivian SUV if/when it ever ships.

Mike__S

i am reminded of a famous quote attributed to Mr John Crow (Oxford university) by Mr. R.V.Jones: “Do not think what you want to think until you know what you ought to know”

The subject here is not specifically any particular comment on efficacy of lithium technology per se, or between ICE vs EV. Opportunity costs are the true issue. Installed infrastructure for ICE is harmful and certainly no longer thought of as “a low cost economic solution”. EV centralizes the pollution question, if at marginal incremental costs to consumers, marginal being an economics term. This change to electric opens a different solution path to what is otherwise an insurmountable pollution and fundamental resource utilization question. One way to view this transition is it is exposing the real societal costs of ICE technology and its supporting infrastructure by direct comparison to alternative, sustainable choices. Furthermore, the point being EV issues (including those listed here) are not so much less difficult to resolve, rather once met, the results are far, far less harmful. Not the least of which are the still evolving, significant geopolitical risks that total reliance on an ice based infrastructure has locked into place.

Diesel Benz

This is mostly a US (NA) issue. In Europe pretty much every private house has at least an 11 kW 3-phase 400 V wall plug for generic use. Plug in a wallbox at a few hundred dollars (still way overpriced at the moment, after all it is not much more than a 3-phase circuit breaker as the car handles AC charging). Not a big investment relative to an EV price.

If you don't have the tiny 220 V, less than 11 kW, wall plug in your house, you cannot run many other powerful electric equipment that you probably wanted to use.

My rant is not intended to be promoting EV cars, just a comment.

chassis

EV cost as noted in the OP exceeds ICE cost, mainly driven by battery cost. The industry does not have clear line of sight today to solve this quickly.

Total lifecycle carbon emissions for EVs exceed ICE when accounting for the first shovel of lithium out of the ground, vehicle operation and until end of vehicle life.

EVs are more expensive and worse for the environment today. This is not the narrative that is being communicated.

The G Man

A study from MIT found that the battery and fuel production for an EV generates higher emissions than the manufacturing of an automobile. But those higher environmental costs are offset by EVs’ superior energy efficiency over time.

Mobility of the Future | MIT Energy Initiative

DFWdude

Ah, this is another option. Take your home off the grid AND be prepared to power an EV, too. Great idea. Thanks.