JTK44

Just looked over the DOG:

I guess we are both correct: the standard 18" wheel is the same size front and rear; The optional larger size wheels are staggered.

What I find interesting as compared to my 2019 E450, wheels, 245X45X18, the tires are now 225X55X18: These tires with a larger sidewall will ride smoother, be less prone to sidewall bubbles, have longer tread life, will be better in rain, sleet and snow and will be cheaper when they need to be replaced.

If you want performance, do not care about the ride, bubbles in the sidewall, shorter tread life or the cost of replacement then go for the larger wheel. (it is a given that wider tires with lower profile are worse in adverse weather conditions, rain, sleet and snow than narrower tires with higher profile)

ua549

IMO
There are base, performance and high performance models. Anything above the base model that improves performance changes the category. A six cylinder E450 model is a performance model compared to 4 banger E300. An AMG is a high performance model.

JTK44

If you check the DOG you will see that the E450 has the same size tires, front and rear, as the E350.

superswiss

I suppose that's one way to look at it, but I think it's a little bit more nuanced. AMG models come in 43, 53, 55 and 63 models or at the lower end 35 and 45 models. The AMGs just by themselves are essentially categorized into performance and high-performance. The 55/63 and 45 are the high-performance, whereas the 35, 43 and 53 are the performance models. For the regular Mercedes-Benz models you have at best sport and luxury trims. I wouldn't call any of them a performance model. Yes, they come at different power levels and luxury vs sport trim (AMG line), but they are still very much comfort and luxury oriented. Some regular models can be had with a sport tuned suspension, so that's where I suppose it starts to get fuzzy. But wheel sizes alone and a six cylinder engine that's tuned for comfort doesn't make a performance model. A Maybach S 680 comes with a 621 hp V12. That's a lot of power, but nobody would call it a performance car. A lot of that power goes towards moving the heavy beast. I would argue a 4-banger E350 is underpowered for its weight and the E450 has adequate power for the weight. You have to look at the power to weight ratio and not the power figures alone.

superswiss

Only 1 out of 4 of the wheel/tire size options are not staggered. You said most are the same size, but I'd argue most are not. For this model alone 75% of the wheel/tire size options are staggered. That's most.

JTK44

Your mathematics are of course correct: I do not know, but I would venture a guess, that even if there were 8 not 4 choices, so that the 18" wheel made up only 12 1/2% of the choices, the vast majority of E Class cars would still come with the 18" inch wheel.

Or you can look at interiors, there are MB Tex, leather and nappa leather. Despite three options, MB Tex probably makes up 90% of all E Class. Walk into any dealer and models on the floor - almost all will be MB Tex (and will have 18" wheels.)

Just looked at colors:

• Two non-metallic paints
• six metallic paints
• three manufaktur paints

There are then a total of 11 colors. I will willing to bet dollars to donuts, that non-metallic paints while making up less than 20% of the colors, in fact make up more than 50% of the cars (colors) made.

In you doubt me go into any dealer and then post how many manufaktur colors you see on the dealer showroom floor. I bet the number you see is ZERO. I bet more than than 50% are either black or white: non-metallic paints!

superswiss

Point being we have to be specific about what we mean by most. I'm looking at the specs of the cars, not sales figures. You are likely right that the more base level configurations make up the majority of the vehicles on the road, so yes by that measure, most people are probably in a position to rotate the tires, but we'd need detailed sales figures to really be sure.

JTK44

No you don't: Use common sense: Almost all cars that are not special ordered, the majority of sales made, come standard: 18" wheels, MB Tex and are either black or white.

Dealers order and take in what they can sell and price is very important. Dealers are not going to add options which only drives the price up. People coming into the dealer shop around and price is important. They do not want to hear that this car is $10K/$15K higher because of nappa leather, special paint or special tires!

One caveat: I live in the NY Metro area: there are over 10 Mercedes dealers within an hour drive. Each one of those dealers does a high volume. They compete against each other - mainly based on price and convenience - but less so because of online buying, where you never go into the dealership. They are in business because there is a high demand.

But if you live in area where demand is low and the next nearest dealer is a 3 hour drive away, things could be different. Of course if the next dealer is 3 hours away, the number of cars being sold is nothing like what the dealers in my area sell, so even they sell 1 or 2 "loaded models" it does not offset the 20/30 model E's each of the dealers in my area sell - which come standard with few options.

superswiss

To be honest, I don't really look at inventories. I've always ordered my cars. Just out of curiosity I checked the inventory of my dealership and 4 out of 11 E Classes have optional larger wheels. So yeah less than half for this dealership right at this moment, but they still stock them and impossible to tell if they currently have more with 18" wheels, because the models with larger wheels sell better. I would think which wheel sizes dealers stock has more to do with the number of potholes in one's specific area. I'm not surprised that in the NY/NJ area you will mostly find 18" wheels. but here in sunny California with relatively good roads I see mostly low profile tires on luxury cars.

ua549

I just checked my local dealer's new MB inventory. Black and white account for 53% of that inventory. Gray and silver account for slightly less than 32%.

Kejad

That was very much what I saw shopping for a used wagon three years ago. We wanted Piedmont green or blue, liked grey, were fine with silver, and didn't want anything else. We had to say no to a LOT of white and black cars. The greens and blues were few and far between. We have a grey with brown interior that we really like, but I still pine for that one green one we found in Vermont. (Shady non-Mercedes dealer that we finally said no to because of the shadiness.)

So, yes, the existence of an option doesn't mean it's common in the US fleet.

The G Man

The W213 is a permanent AWD system, meaning it send about 40 to 50% of the power to the front wheel all the time, that is why it drives like it is on rails. As road condition changes, the W213's torque distribution will vary. The cheaper Mercedes such as the A class or B class use the cheaper AWD system which is much like your Ford, it is either FWD or RWD until it detects slippage and then sent power to the other axle. AMG models of the permanent AWD system will have more of a RWD bias.

AWD is a safety feature, unless one tracks their car, the advantage of AWD out weights the disadvantage.

JTK44

I do not believe you are correct:

• Sending 40%/50% to the front wheels all of the time would result in terrible gas mileage.
• If as you claim, 40%/50% of the power is sent to the front wheels, then tire wear would be more or less the same between front and rear. In fact that is not the case. The rear tires wear much, much faster than the front.

In the winter in Vermont in a parking lot covered with snow: as I back out it is rear wheel drive: if the rear wheels lose or start to lose tractions, the front wheels become engaged.

The simple fact is that the E Class is AWD, RWD biased, where 95% of the power goes to the rear and 5% to the front and when needed up to 50% is sent to the front.

4MATIC® All-Wheel Drive

With this system, 4MATIC® calculates the ideal torque distribution as you drive. Typically, this system sends power to the rear axle before distributing it forward when it detects you need the additional grip.

see: https://www.mercedesbenzoftyler.com/...-does-it-work/

• 4MATIC® All-Wheel Drive- 4MATIC® takes things further by calculating the ideal torque distribution. This creates a seamless transition from all-wheel drive to 100% rear-wheel drive.

see: https://www.fjmercedes.com/what-is-m...l-wheel-drive/

superswiss

The problem with AWD systems is the marketing spin that's put on it. A lot of concepts get muddled in the marketing speech and they rarely get it right. For starters, there's 4MATIC and then there's 4MATIC+. The latter is what most AMGs have, especially the 63 models. This is the 4MATIC that has effectively a 0/100 torque split under normal conditions. 4MATIC has a fixed torque split of around 40/60 despite what you might find in some of the marketing speak.

The marketing departments get creative by muddling two concepts when it comes to AWD. There are two characteristics that any AWD system adheres to. There's torque split and torque apportion. Torque split is how much of the torque the AWD mechanism forces to each axle under normal conditions. This is achieved by a bias in the center differential if present or partial engagement of the clutch that connects the second axle. Torque split determines how the car feels/handles when all wheels have about equal traction. So this is where front or rear biased comes into the picture. A front biased system will drive more like FWD and a rear biased system more like RWD.

EDIT: BTW, just to throw another twist on it. This is where AWD EVs fall short. In an AWD EV the two axles are not connected by any means. Each axle is driven by its own motor, so a single traction can never receive all the power/torque as there are no mechanical means to redirect the power from one motor to the opposite axle.

Torque apportion is what many people don't really understand. This applies when one axle loses traction. In this case every AWD system reacts essentially the same, but differs in the technical implementation. When one axle loses traction, then all or the majority of the torque flows to the other axle. You no longer care about torque split at that point as the flow of torque is a function of the available traction at each axle. This is where marketing departments embellish by claiming the system can send up to a 100% to each axle. Yes, that's true, but only if the other axle has zero traction.

4MATIC+ is capable of adjusting the torque split between 0/100 and 50/50 to actively distribute the driving torque, but depending on the available traction it can go all the way to 100/0 if the rear axle is on ice for example. A 50/50 torque split means that both axles are a 100% locked together, basically the center differential is fully locked, and in that case if one axle has zero traction, the other axle receives a 100% of the torque. That's just physics at that point and is the basis behind locking and limited slip differentials to send torque to the wheel(s) that can actually put it on the pavement. Similarly assuming 4MATIC has a 40/60 default split, if the rear axle loses traction all the torque will flow to the front axle and the effective torque split goes to 100/0.

JTK44

I believe this is inaccurate.

Every manufacturer is trying to achieve the highest CAFE numbers possible. The CAFE numbers will be highest when all power, under normal driving conditions is sent to either the front or rear axle. Splitting 40/60 will result in much lower CAFE numbers than 0/100, and under 90% of driving conditions with no appreciable improvement.

Simply no manufacturer who must comply with CAFE will create an AWD system that is 40/60 all of the time. (exotic cars and high performance cars excluded. Those manufacturers are willing to pay the fine for not meeting CAFE numbers and the CAFE fines are just passed on to the buyer in a higher price)

As I posted, the Mercedes AWD in the E Class is 0/100 or 5/95. When conditions warrant, power is diverted from the rear to the front wheel.

Audi's on the other hand can be had either FWD or AWD. Audi's quattro system is FWD biased. That is the simple reason in snow Audi's out perform Mercedes and BMW which are RWD biased.

superswiss

Sorry, but you are misinformed. 40/60 is a common default torque split. Audi uses it in the full quattro system in the A4 and above. Only the Haldex system in the A3 and the other entry level models is FWD biased similar to the Ford system explained above. It's the same system VW calls 4 Motion. BMW xDrive is also around 40/60, except for the M models.

Audi also has another quattro system dubbed quattro ultra. It's similar to the Haldex system, but it can fully decouple the rear axle and the drive shaft to reduce losses when just cruising along and go a 100% FWD. It uses a dog clutch on the rear axle and a multi plate clutch in the front to achieve this, so the driveshaft actually stops spinning to further reduce losses. Their real world results show a 3% reduction in fuel consumption over the permanent 40/60 quattro system, so while AWD has higher losses than only driving a single axle, 3% reduction in fuel economy is not earth shattering, but it does matter to some people.

The G Man

Below is a good description of all the 4matic system Mercedes currently use.

https://www.mercedesbenzatlantasouth...l-wheel-drive/

The 4MATIC® Permanent All-Wheel-Drive System

True to its name, the 4MATIC® Permanent All-Wheel Drive system constantly powers all four axles with a fixed torque split, which noticeably and consistently improves traction, handling, overall ride, and safety. The 4MATIC® Permanent system can be found on the following vehicles:

• E-Class Sedan
• S-Class Sedan
• C-Class Coupe
• CLS Coupe
• GLE SUV
• GLE Coupe
• GLS SUV

The on demand AWD systems generally has less traction than the permanent AWD systems. The only on demand AWD system that came close to the traction of the permanent AWD system is the electric AWD. The type that has 1 or 2 electric motor sending torque to one axle, the other a le powered by either ICE or battery, guessing electricity reacts faster than a center differential.

superswiss

If anybody wants to learn more about the real inner workings of AWD systems, a good start is the video below. Audi has done some good videos explaining the various AWD systems they use/used in different models. 4MATIC and quattro etc. are just brand names, but there are many variations of the same idea with different advantages and disadvantages and fundamentally different implementations. Once you have a better understanding of just the systems that Audi uses/used you can move on to 4MATIC and xDrive. Much less variation there as neither Mercedes nor BMW are really known for AWD.