The battery that powers the electric motor, like all EV batteries is lithium. I believe it is rated at 21.2 KW.

I would assume that the 12 and 48 volt batteries are the same - but I could be wrong - so please do not jump on me if I am wrong!

Hope this helps

see: https://www.google.com/search?q=what...hrome&ie=UTF-8

 

What don't you like about Li-Ion?

 

Nothing to sue about: someone came up with an idea and tried it: as I posted like building houses on the barrier reefs in the Carolina's on stilts and in California on cliffs: some with always do it just to say they did it, but most will not.

 

In one of my previous post I mentioned that I had just returned from Japan: there were virtually no EV's but a lot of hybrids and a few PHEV's: Japan, which among industrialized countries, is one of the most densely populated countries in the world, has taken the position that until it can be shown that lithium batteries, which can both explode and catch fire, are demonstrated to be safe, are against EV and to a certain extent PHEV's.

Hope this helps.

 

Li-ion batteries are at greater risk of fire and explosion. As such li-ion powered vehicles should be parked well away from buildings.
Li-ion batteries should not get wet.

Last week's house fire

11 cars & 48 fires from Helene

 

I see.

 

You are wrong. PHEVs work just like a conventional hybrid by maintaining full electric power capacity from regen or the ICE. The difference being PHEVs have a larger battery that allows the added benefit of external charging, resulting in less fuel used or more performance, and the option of electric-only range. Scroll down to 'modes of operation':

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hybrid
The E53 is being sold as an AMG with the AMG premium because it goes 0-60 in the 3-second range and ~175 MPH flat out (plus performance suspension, nicer interior, etc.)...not because there might be a payback in MPG (even though there could be depending on how it is driven).

PHEVs can be the worst of both worlds or the best of both worlds depending on how they are used. The E53 (and Ferrari 296 and Lamborghini Revuelto to name two) provide serious performance while complying with EU emissions regs.

 

Absolutely and unequivocaly incorrect: the way a PHEV works is use the battery to obtain the best mileage possible. Once the battery is depleted, the ICE kicks in. After that, electricity is added to the battery through brake regeneration. At highway speeds there is little to no braking and hence the battery is not recharged and you continue on your trip using the ICE. Unlike a hybrid, the engine does not recharge the battery.

The reason less fuel is used is that it is a combination of zero fuel for the first 40 miles and afterwards fuel when the ICE kicks in.

You already know this as I laid this out in post #127 which you responded to.



You concept is 180 degrees reversed: The E53 when you start it does not use the ICE and then for performance the EV kicks in. It is the other way around: when you start the EV kicks in and if you need performance the ICE kicks in. After 40 miles the EV is depleted and all you have left is the ICE.

Go back and read the threads: the threads start off by saying that in local driving hardly any gas is used: that is to be as expected: the E53 is operating in electric mode. The writer than comments that on a long drive, with two stops he averaged over 39 mpg. That means on long trips after the battery was depleted, the ICE engine kicked in, he stopped and recharged, the EV kicked in and then after 40 miles the ICE kicked back in.

Remember the PHEV is not a hybrid where there is no plug in, the engine recharges the battery. In an PHEV recharging is either through an external power source or regenerative braking.

Whether or not the Ferrari and Lamborghini comply with EU emissions - I do not know. But what I do know is that for the first 40 miles the E53 gives you tremendous performance. After that it is an ICE that weighs nearly 1000 lbs., or nearly 20% more than E450 with very little extra power to lug around that extra weight.

 

After seeing you repeat the same thing untold number of times I offer this as provided by Grok:

Yes, the Mercedes-AMG E53 Hybrid uses its internal combustion engine (ICE) to recharge its battery. The E53 is a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV) with a 3.0-liter turbocharged inline-six engine and a 161-hp electric motor powered by a 28.6-kWh battery (21.2-kWh usable). In certain driving modes, such as "Battery Hold" or "Comfort," the ICE can work in tandem with the electric motor to maintain or replenish the battery's charge. For example, in "Battery Hold" mode, the ICE and electric motor operate to keep the battery's state of charge constant, using the engine to generate electricity when needed. Additionally, regenerative braking and supplemental engine power in "Sport" or "Sport+" modes can also contribute to recharging the battery on the go. However, the primary method for recharging remains plugging into an external power source, such as a 60-kW DC fast charger or an 11-kW AC charger.


And, generically, there is this from the Alternative Fuels Data Center https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric-basics-phevr:

PHEV batteries can be charged by an outside electric power source, by the internal combustion engine, or through regenerative braking

 

From Car and Driver:

"To drive the E53 like this, you just spin the drive-mode knob on the lower-right of the dual-spoke AMG steering wheel to EL. Using just the 161-hp motor, it's hardly a rocket ship, but it is torquey enough to scoot through town and get up to highway speeds without issue.

"Should you need to make a pass or want a little more oomph, press that gas pedal through the kick-down detent, and the inline-six fires up promptly and smoothly. You get a polite little thrum of exhaust note and then, a moment later, a kick of torque to propel you into that gap in traffic.

"Then, simply lift off the throttle again, and the engine goes quiet. Assuming you have the charge, the E53 is happy to return to silent running, a simple task that plenty of other hybrids struggle with.


As I posted: EV then ICE for performance, then back to EV, when EV runs out, then back to ICE.



see: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...-hybrid-drive/

 

Partially true:

If you put the controller in "hold" you will be driving solely on the ICE saving the battery for performance: this means you will be lugging around nearly a 1000 lbs of dead weight until you "stomp on it": That may make sense to you, but I doubt to anyone else. In the hold mode, the E53 with its extra weight will not perform as well as a standard E450 and of course the ride is harsher, noisier and less serene.

Again, the engine does not recharge the battery: on an external source and/or regenerative braking.

There is nothing more to add: if you think an extra $18,000 for the PHEV, over 10 years $27,000 is worth it go for it.

For me an AMG with highly tuned engine and/or V8, with vastly superior handling and same weight might make sense for the extra money: the E53 does not fit that bill.

BTW, your previous reference to both the Ferrari and Lamborghini may not be comparing apples to apples: Most 5 year old Ferraris and Lamborghini have less than 3,000 miles on them, are driven relatively short distances and and are not used for long trips with or without people. Both are marketed to a completely different market than the E53.

 

That may be true in NY, but not necessarily elsewhere. There are more Ferrari's in my neighborhood than E53's. My neighbor's 50 year old 308 GTB is his daily driver. He bought it new in 1975.

 

@JTK44 - Clearly you did not look at the Wiki link I provided. Here is how PHEVs work, cut and pasted. Believe it or not...I don't really care...either way, I'm done arguing with you about it:

Modes of operation

A plug-in hybrid operates in charge-depleting and charge-sustaining modes. Combinations of these two modes are termed blended mode or mixed-mode. These vehicles can be designed to drive for an extended range in all-electric mode, either at low speeds only or at all speeds. These modes manage the vehicle's battery discharge strategy, and their use has a direct effect on the size and type of battery required:[118]

Charge-depleting mode allows a fully charged PHEV to operate exclusively (or depending on the vehicle, almost exclusively, except during hard acceleration) on electric power until its battery state of charge is depleted to a predetermined level, at which time the vehicle's internal combustion engine or fuel cell will be engaged. This period is the vehicle's all-electric range. This is the only mode that a battery electric vehicle can operate in, hence their limited range.[119]

Mixed mode describes a trip using a combination of multiple modes. For example, a car may begin a trip in low-speed charge-depleting mode, then enter onto a freeway and operate in blended mode. The driver might exit the freeway and drive without the internal combustion engine until all-electric range is exhausted. The vehicle can revert to a charge sustaining-mode until the final destination is reached. This contrasts with a charge-depleting trip that would be driven within the limits of a PHEV's all-electric range.

Most PHEV's also have two additional charge sustaining modes:

Battery hold; the electric motor is locked out and the vehicle operates exclusively on combustion power, so that whatever charge is left in the battery remains for when mixed mode or full electric operation are re-engaged, whilst regenerative braking will still be available to boost the battery charge. On some PHEVs, vehicle services that use the traction battery (such as heating and air conditioning) are placed in a low power consumption mode to further conserve the remaining battery charge. The lock-out of the electric motor is automatically overridden (charge permitting) should full acceleration be required.

Self charge; the electric motor's armature is engaged to the transmission, but is connected to the battery so that it runs as a generator and therefore recharges the battery whilst the car is in motion, although this comes at the expense of higher fuel consumption, as the combustion engine has to both power the vehicle itself and charge the battery. This is useful for 'charging on the move' when there are limited places to plug the vehicle in.

 

Why are people using generalized wikipedia and hallucinating AI to describe how specifically the E53 powertrain works?

 

To further their pissing contest…

 

You're welcome to provide any research you elect to source

 

Your Grok says: "For example, in "Battery Hold" mode, the ICE and electric motor operate to keep the battery's state of charge constant, using the engine to generate electricity when needed."

Not sure this is true. Same idea as wiki quote above for self-charge. There are designs in which the running ICE engine can generate electricity to recharge the battery. In the case of the E53, seems to be only regenerative breaking that can recharge the battery. Not sure if the starter-generator generates power for the electronics only or if it recharges the battery.

 

To sum up:

If there is no direct charging by the engine, which is the case with the E53, you have 40 miles of range: you can put the car in hold and lug around the useless 800 lbs of the battery and electric motor and rely on the ICE or you can use the battery for up to 40 miles and then the ICE kicks in.

Most PHEV are designed to economize and and not use the ICE for local driving. The extra cost of a PHEV vs.a hybrid or an ICE, is usually aroung $10/12K: The RAV4 PRIME MSRP is 44,265. The RAV4 Hybrid is $32,300.

There is a clear reason why PHEV are not selling: they cost too much vs. either an ICE or a hybrid: you will never recover the extra cost in gas savings - plus PHEV are far less reliable vs. the same manufacturers hybrid or ICE models..

With the E53 Mercedes has taken a different tack: it is not being sold as a way to save gas, the usual selling point of a PHEV, because of the $18,000 difference. Instead it is being sold as performance.

Any which way you cut it, the E53 performance is limited by the range of the battery, 40 miles. You can either use it locally to save on gas or put it in hold: putting it in hold means you are lugging around nearly 1000 lbs. of dead weight.

 

The engine does not recharge the battery. If it did, then the mileage would be even worse. Recharging the battery by burning fuel to run the ICE is extremely inefficient.

The starter/alternator run off the 48 volt battery which is charged by the engine.

 

I am fairly certain that the E53 Hybrid does not have a 48v battery.

 

I stand corrected: The E53 does not use the ICE to charge the battery. However, it does charge the battery with the electric motor acting as a generator whenever throttle is lifted, and compensates for limited self-charging by keeping electric power in reserve for full utilization of its performance envelope.

The 40+ miles is electric only range, which is only one of its operation modes.

 

That's regenerative braking.

I was just questioning the use of AI when it's wrong or unclear, as in ICE engine generating electricity (via ISG) to recharge the battery.

 

Thanks for posting.

As I understand your post, the battery never really depletes itself, but always keeps some in reserve for a "momentary pop". The reserve is not enough to power the car, but to just aid the ICE in for instance a passing situation. I assume if you do enough "pops", the battery will inevitable be depleted.

Are you now posting that when you take your foot off the throttle and coast the electric motor engages, becomes a generator to charge the battery? Are you sure. (In post # 171 above it is describe as regenerative braking. Is this what you are referring too? If so I already mentioned that. On the open road there is very little to no regenerative braking.)

If so that cannot be very much. On most roads you have some throttle - the only time coasting would be on downhills.

So we are back to where I said we would be: use it for 40 miles without using any gas and then drag around almost 800 lbs. of dead weight for the rest of your trip or put it in "hold" and drag around 800 lbs on your entire trip using the battery only when you need a "pop".

Once people begin to understand that you cannot recharge the battery while driving and the range of the battery is only 40 miles, I think very few will pony up an extra $18,000 for the E53 vs. the E450.

Mercedes, like Toyota and every other manufacturer who charges a substantial premium of the PHEV over their hybrid and/or ICE models, will soon realize that the public will not warm up to PHEV. For every PHEV sold, 4 EV are sold!

see: https://theicct.org/fully-electric-n...20model%20year.

At this moment some EV and PHEV's lose 50% of their value in just 3 years. Another reason to avoid the E53

see: https://www.topspeed.com/why-buying-...-over-leasing/

 

It feels like you have some sort of irrational hate for PHEVs that is not at all related to fact. My 2022 BMW X5 45e PHEV is currently valued about $2k more than a similarly equipped non-PHEV X5. At the time I purchased it, the cost of the PHEV was less than the non-PHEV due to tax credits.

PHEV, for the right user, is perfection. In my NYC suburb, I can go weeks without needing gas but also take a roadtrip without having to think about where to charge. I would not be getting this MB if not for the PHEV option. To each their own, but do not try to talk people out of PHEV with unfounded negativity.

 

Out of curiosity, why the E53 and not the BMW M5 Touring? Both are PHEVs, and the infotainment is similar to the iDrive 7/8 in your 2022. I have iDrive 8.5 in my M3 Competition Touring and prefer it to MBUX.